Skyrim Open Source Project Proposal - Merging SKSE and ScriptDragon

[ianpatt]

nosisab has summarized part of the problem pretty well. Going further towards the "deal breaker" problem, it's a trust issue. With Script Dragon, all SD mods require installing native code written by the modder and giving it full access to your computer. This means that someone could potentially write a mod that formats your hard drive or installs a virus or otherwise does something unwanted. I'm not saying this is likely or that it wouldn't get caught quickly, but the problem is that it's possible. I don't like supporting a model that encourages people to trust that - it's worse than ActiveX controls on webpages.

 

While we (SKSE) support native code plugins for mods that *must* be native code, once we've completed integration with Papyrus 99% of mods that will want to use features added by SKSE will not need any native code and may be added as pure esp/esm mods. In this case, the only trust needed is in one place; you don't need to worry when installing a new mod about whether or not it could contain unwanted code. Existing mod managers warn when a mod wants to install a new *SE plugin, and this is for good reason. Think of the OBSE model: only extreme exceptions like OBGE and OBSR needed their own plugins. Everything else worked inside the existing sandbox provided by Bethesda, with our extensions on top. I'm pretty busy with work right now, so it's taking longer than I'd like to reach that point, but it keeps getting closer.

 

We aren't technically an "Open Source" project by the strict definition, either. The source is available, but I haven't found a license that properly handles the standard "modder's honor code" people follow (no selling, derivatives must have their source available, etc). This doesn't allow hosting on places like Google Code/sourceforge.

Edited March 1, 2012 by ianpatt

[FierceSlayer]

nosisab has summarized part of the problem pretty well. Going further towards the "deal breaker" problem, it's a trust issue. With Script Dragon, all SD mods require installing native code written by the modder and giving it full access to your computer. This means that someone could potentially write a mod that formats your hard drive or installs a virus or otherwise does something unwanted. I'm not saying this is likely or that it wouldn't get caught quickly, but the problem is that it's possible. I don't like supporting a model that encourages people to trust that - it's worse than ActiveX controls on webpages.

 

While we (SKSE) support native code plugins for mods that *must* be native code, once we've completed integration with Papyrus 99% of mods that will want to use features added by SKSE will not need any native code and may be added as pure esp/esm mods. In this case, the only trust needed is in one place; you don't need to worry when installing a new mod about whether or not it could contain unwanted code. Existing mod managers warn when a mod wants to install a new *SE plugin, and this is for good reason. Think of the OBSE model: only extreme exceptions like OBGE and OBSR needed their own plugins. Everything else worked inside the existing sandbox provided by Bethesda, with our extensions on top. I'm pretty busy with work right now, so it's taking longer than I'd like to reach that point, but it keeps getting closer.

I completely agree with you, as a relatively new member of the community I didn't feel comfortable criticizing the SD model but you have eloquently stated the problem in a fair manner. This is exactly what my feelings are about the ideal state of extending the functionality in Skyrim, I miss not having the same flexibility I had in Oblivion and I only had those two plugins installed (OBGE & OBSR), everything else as pure Oblivion scripting. I'm very happy to know that SKSE and Papyrus integration is close.

 

We aren't technically an "Open Source" project by the strict definition, either. The source is available, but I haven't found a license that properly handles the standard "modder's honor code" people follow (no selling, derivatives must have their source available, etc). This doesn't allow hosting on places like Google Code/sourceforge.

That is a valid concern and I respect your decision; I don't know of an open source license that would provide those protections.

 

I would still like offer my assistance as a developer to help add some keyboard and mouse input management functions I need in my own mods to SKSE. These particular functions are also used by other very popular mods that are currently broken for users of Skyrim 1.4.27 until ScriptDragon is patched. You may already have these new functions in development so I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel. Let me know if you could use my help in any way.

 

Thanks for all your hard work and for the detailed response to my post.

 

PS: Looking thorough the code in the current version of SKSE I see you have some input management code already in place so it may just be a matter of me learning how to use it. I'll spend some time to become more familiar with your code.

Edited March 1, 2012 by FierceSlayer

[vatomalo]

If this ever happens it needs to be ported to the PS3 for custom firmware users!

Since we can use some mods, and with a SKSE port we could use most if not all mods!

[HeyYou]

If this ever happens it needs to be ported to the PS3 for custom firmware users!

Since we can use some mods, and with a SKSE port we could use most if not all mods!

Isn't that a violation of Sony's policies?

[Lachdonin]

 

If this ever happens it needs to be ported to the PS3 for custom firmware users!

Since we can use some mods, and with a SKSE port we could use most if not all mods!

 

Isn't that a violation of Sony's policies?

Yeeeah.. if you want mods, you're gonna need a PC. You're not even supposed to have access to 'some' mods. Talk about custom firmware is likely to get you banned around here too, because it's technically illegal to tamper with Sony's product.