What is the best faction?

[TheFirstEnD]

 

1. The Provisional Government would have "saved" the Commonwealth? Yeah right. The Commonwealths largest militia, the Minutemen, fell apart due to corruption and naivete. Do you think the Provisional Government would have been any different? But lets just say they did set up a government. Are a bunch of peasants going to figure out how to boost crop yields in a radiated wasteland? No - they clearly aren't. Proof? It's been 200 years - and they still haven't figured it out. The people of the Commonwealth, and all of the Wasteland for that matter, have had over 200 years to set up a government. They haven't. They won't.

 

It's complicated to juggle between game mechanic, game logic and real world... but let's try.

1. It's more easier to destroy a faction without real chief and real rule than destroy a government with chiefs, laws, police, army, projects and finances.

- Lol I don't know why people think that there are only peasants in this game... that mean Bethesda failed at this point.

We need to be a little realist here and consider that all things the player can do there are people can do it too (build walls, create ammos, modify weapons, etablish electricity, etc...) and more, like fishing, driving vertibird etc...

- IMO the world 200 years after the bombs created by Bethesda that look like a world where the bombs dropped the last week is a big mistake, mostly when you see how much all societies are evolved in 200 years in real world.

 

 

Only the NCR were ambitous and smart enough to get something done. And before you say something ridiculous like "they didn't have the Institute breathing down your neck", the NCR has had plenty of large obstacles in their path over the years. They kept trying - and in the end they made it. The people of the Commonwealth lack the ambition and drive for success. After the Minutemen fell apart they all gave up. After the Provisional Government failed they all gave up. They're hopeless on their own. The Institute may not be the savior the Commonwealth "deserves", but they are the only hope the Commonwealth actually has at rebuilding the world.

 

Arrf... you know... the difference between the NCR, the Minutemen and the people of the Commonwealth, it's on the one hand there is Bethesda and on the other hand Obsidian.

- And don't try cheating us with a Batman-esque words, what the Institut do have nothing to do with heroism ^^

 

 

2. The Institute has the technology to fix the Commonwealth. The technology that would make life worth living. To destroy the Institute for something as petty as revenge, or so called "justice", is just narrow minded and foolish. You have to look at the big picture. There is a lot more here then just peasants being killed by other peasants. This is about rebuilding society, about fixing the Earth. Do you think a bunch of illiterate Scavvers are going to be doing that? Because that is what the majority of the Commonwealth is filled with. Illiterate Scavvers. People that would rather cut your throat so they can take whatever is your pockets then hear what you have to say.

 

2. You know, you can come at me with the better plan for save the world, with the more logical way for do it, using your best rational words for explain me the whys and the wherefores... if you killed my wife, my kids, my friends and a ton of innocents people who tried build something with nothing for make their life a little better... I'll put a bullet right between your eyes. Because nothing can justify a genocid, it's that simple.

- IMO we can logically say that there are more scientifics, engineers and intellectuals outside the Institut than inside.

- Like I said before the world created by Bethesda have a lot of mistake, but let's try to explain that :

. Why build a home today if tomorow all I make will be destroy by Supermutants ?

. There is nothing to do and I hungry, so why not rob people who have something ?

 

 

They lack the intellect and drive to fix the Commonwealth. To put the fate of the Commonwealth in the hands of people like that - is no different then condemning the Commonwealth to death. I believe that the Commonwealth deserves a brighter future than just sitting in a wood shack eating 200+ year old pork n' beans. Which is the future the Commonwealth has under the Minutemen. 200 years of this show that I'm right. They won't just suddenly learn how to make proper homes, or how to make the plants more capable of growing in the ruined soil, or learn that eating 200+ year old food is probably bad for your bowels.

 

You just insulted all your ancestors, all those who builded this world with their hands.

How fix the Commonwealth ? With a little farm, that become a big farm, that become a village, that become city, that become a region, the Commonwealth.

They don't need the Institut and their technology.

Edited September 27, 2017 by TheFirstEnD

[Transient3292]

Each time I see things like "the Institue are not evil", "as director you can make them become the good guys", it makes me laugth. It's like say once you become Elder you can make the BoS become the defenders of ghouls and supermutant, and make them happy to share all their technologies with them. It's a pure CHILDISH FAN FICTION.

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But for the problem of not be able to transform the Minutemen in a faction better than Gunner it's a hole in the game mechanic.

The Minutemen are mostly settlers so why same when I equip all my settlers with good weapons, good armors and power armors they continue to spawn with rags and old laser muskets ? Game mechanic hole.

After taking over the castle, according to different dialogues, Minutemen receive military trainning. So why they continue to spawn at level 1 ? Game mechanic hole.

you're just not using the right mods. between immersive gameplay and better settlers, my recruits are still kinda rag tag, but definitely capable of defending settlements.

[iXenite]

 

 

It's complicated to juggle between game mechanic, game logic and real world... but let's try.

1. It's more easier to destroy a faction without real chief and real rule than destroy a government with chiefs, laws, police, army, projects and finances.

- Lol I don't know why people think that there are only peasants in this game... that mean Bethesda failed at this point.

We need to be a little realist here and consider that all things the player can do there are people can do it too (build walls, create ammos, modify weapons, etablish electricity, etc...) and more, like fishing, driving vertibird etc...

- IMO the world 200 years after the bombs created by Bethesda that look like a world where the bombs dropped the last week is a big mistake, mostly when you see how much all societies are evolved in 200 years in real world.

 

 

Arrf... you know... the difference between the NCR, the Minutemen and the people of the Commonwealth, it's on the one hand there is Bethesda and on the other hand Obsidian.

- And don't try cheating us with a Batman-esque words, what the Institut do have nothing to do with heroism ^^

 

 

2. You know, you can come at me with the better plan for save the world, with the more logical way for do it, using your best rational words for explain me the whys and the wherefores... if you killed my wife, my kids, my friends and a ton of innocents people who tried build something with nothing for make their life a little better... I'll put a bullet right between your eyes. Because nothing can justify a genocid, it's that simple.

- IMO we can logically say that there are more scientifics, engineers and intellectuals outside the Institut than inside.

- Like I said before the world created by Bethesda have a lot of mistake, but let's try to explain that :

. Why build a home today if tomorow all I make will be destroy by Supermutants ?

. There is nothing to do and I hungry, so why not rob people who have something ?

 

 

You just insulted all your ancestors, all those who builded this world with their hands.

How fix the Commonwealth ? With a little farm, that become a big farm, that become a village, that become city, that become a region, the Commonwealth.

They don't need the Institut and their technology.

 

 

1. The lore that Bethesda has chosen to establish is that the world is filled with peasants with very little intellectual curiosity or skills.

 

2. The lore that Bethesda created and is supported by in-universe written text, and the game world, is that the world does look like the bombs just went off. There is no getting around this fact. Humanity has been sitting around for 200 years living like bums.

 

3. I never said the Institute were heroes. Not even close. There much more like the Brotherhood of Steel, or even the Enclave. Relics of a time gone by, but when it come to both the Enclave and the Institute - both have the potential and means to make the wasteland better.

 

4. Logically we can say there are very few intellectual minds left in the wasteland. There are certainly some, as the Institute does recruit them. But they most certainly do not outnumber those in the Institute. Not even close. If they did there would be more scientific advancement in the wasteland - but the reality is there isn't.

 

5. Building civilization should never be stopped because of "mutants", or "raiders" or other scum. Also, the Super Mutant program is over. The systematic genocide on the super mutant population can now freely begin. The reality is this. The people of the Commonwealth are filled with nihilists. People who think life isn't worth living, so they give up before they even begin. None of them truly stand up for themselves. If you have a raider or mutant problem, you build your town and get soldiers to defend it. Since the earliest time in human history, we have understood the value of what is "ours" and how to defend it with extreme violence. Just like we also have since the beginning of time, known how to take things we want with extreme violence. The fact that the people of the Commonwealth live in slums is inexcusable. They might as well all commit suicide if they've given up that easy.

 

6. Taking things by force is human nature. Killing people is human nature. But you cannot build a society based around petty killings and theft. Why do you think the raider gangs never succeed at anything meaningful? Order must be created, laws must be put in place and enforced. Look at the icon you have on this site, it's an Imperial soldier. What is the motto of the Empire? "The Empire is Law. The Law is Sacred." The people of the Commonwealth don't understand discipline, nor do they understand the concept of society. The Brotherhood of Steel is 100% right when it comes to hoarding the technology they do. The people of the Commonwealth don't deserve to touch those objects. They don't have the respect or understanding of any of it.

 

7. My ancestors, just like yours, learned how to build civilization. They started literally at the bottom - and built the civilization we see today. The people of the Commonwealth are far from the bottom. They've regressed as a society - and have continued to regress for 200+ years.

 

8. They do need the the technology of the Institute. The soil, and the strains of plants that exist in the Commonwealth are not good enough to make truly successful crops. They lack the yields and potency to be proper crops. The institute has the technology to improve those yields. Warwick Farms shows this to be true. The Institute is using that farm to test new strains of plants found on the surface so they'll grow more efficiently, and larger then do now. In addition to that, they have farms underground that are much more like the plants we see now in a non-post apocalyptic world. They're clearly interested in building things that will make the surface more livable. It's like I said before, while we don't know the exact intentions of what "Mankind Redefined" really are, I do believe that they are much more well intended then people may initially think. Misguided perhaps. But with the right intentions at heart.

[drach]

communistm is built on good intentions and then millions starved with another millions got executed... come to think of it, outcome is quite similar - genocide, because some group has brilliant idea on how world should be and those pesky peoples just stand in the way of their vision on how to improve their lives, they just need to die first and then it's all be better

[TheFirstEnD]

 

1. The lore that Bethesda has chosen to establish is that the world is filled with peasants with very little intellectual curiosity or skills.

 

Wrong. There are nothing in the lore saying the world is filled with peasants with very little intellectual curiosity or skills.

Now few exemples :

- Each time you go to Diamond City there are vendors selling fresh meat ?

It means that there are hunters, hunting Yao guai, Mirelurk and other comestibles creatures

- There are electricity in DC ?

It means that there are electricians

- There are purified water in DC ?

It means that there are people able to build water purifiers

- There are turret in DC ?

It means that there are people able to build turrets

- A more in depth exemple.

For build turrets you need people with knowledge of electronics and people with knowledge of metallurgy.

In the game you never see these guys but they're still there. You see, say that the world is filled only with peasants with very little intellectual curiosity or skills is stupid.

 

 

3. I never said the Institute were heroes. Not even close. There much more like the Brotherhood of Steel, or even the Enclave. Relics of a time gone by, but when it come to both the Enclave and the Institute - both have the potential and means to make the wasteland better.

 

Sorry ^^, it's just when I read your sentence, I immediately thought about it :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2jPwMM7Do4

 

 

4. Logically we can say there are very few intellectual minds left in the wasteland. There are certainly some, as the Institute does recruit them. But they most certainly do not outnumber those in the Institute. Not even close. If they did there would be more scientific advancement in the wasteland - but the reality is there isn't.

 

Wrong. Look the BoS, look the Pryden, look liberty prime, look vertibirds, APC and power armors. The BoS need and recruit a lot of intellectual minds and compared to the Institut which is only in the Commonwealth the BoS are pratically in all USA wasteland.

 

 

5. Building civilization should never be stopped because of "mutants", or "raiders" or other scum.

 

Yes, but radations can.

 

 

Also, the Super Mutant program is over. The systematic genocide on the super mutant population can now freely begin. The reality is this. The people of the Commonwealth are filled with nihilists. People who think life isn't worth living, so they give up before they even begin. None of them truly stand up for themselves. If you have a raider or mutant problem, you build your town and get soldiers to defend it. Since the earliest time in human history, we have understood the value of what is "ours" and how to defend it with extreme violence. Just like we also have since the beginning of time, known how to take things we want with extreme violence. The fact that the people of the Commonwealth live in slums is inexcusable. They might as well all commit suicide if they've given up that easy.

 

Funny. The Institute put a ton of Supermutants in the Commonwealth to destroy all settlements and kill every single person trying build something.

When some settlements resisted, the Institute infiltrated some synths inside them before declenched a kind of "order 66" for annihilate all settlers from inside.

The Institute have sabotaged the tentative of people of the Commonweath to build a government.

The Institute kidnap, kill and replace some importants peoples by synths like the Diamond City Mayor for be sure that no alliance is ever made again (It's why the mayor hate the Minutemen and journalists)

Sometime the Institute attacked by themself some settlements with their army of synth (like University Point).

And after this, you come here say "Ha ha ha look at that ! The Institut is right, people of the Commonwealth are just a bunch of nihilist unable to stand up for themselves."

 

6. Taking things by force is human nature. Killing people is human nature. But you cannot build a society based around petty killings and theft. Why do you think the raider gangs never succeed at anything meaningful? Order must be created, laws must be put in place and enforced.

 

Build is human nature too but Betheda forgot this fact or a least, deliberately rejected that... because Hey! How do you want to create a Fallout Minecraft 4 game if everything is already builded ?

 

 

Look at the icon you have on this site, it's an Imperial soldier. What is the motto of the Empire? "The Empire is Law. The Law is Sacred." The people of the Commonwealth don't understand discipline, nor do they understand the concept of society. The Brotherhood of Steel is 100% right when it comes to hoarding the technology they do. The people of the Commonwealth don't deserve to touch those objects. They don't have the respect or understanding of any of it.

 

You don't know, we don't know, because it never happened, because the Instute sabotaged the tentative of people of the Commonweath to build a government.

What the BoS thinks applies to all those who are outside the BoS, Institute included. No better, the Institute is the perfect example of why the BoS thinks that.

 

 

8. They do need the the technology of the Institute. The soil, and the strains of plants that exist in the Commonwealth are not good enough to make truly successful crops. They lack the yields and potency to be proper crops. The institute has the technology to improve those yields. Warwick Farms shows this to be true. The Institute is using that farm to test new strains of plants found on the surface so they'll grow more efficiently, and larger then do now. In addition to that, they have farms underground that are much more like the plants we see now in a non-post apocalyptic world. They're clearly interested in building things that will make the surface more livable. It's like I said before, while we don't know the exact intentions of what "Mankind Redefined" really are, I do believe that they are much more well intended then people may initially think. Misguided perhaps. But with the right intentions at heart.

 

 

Nope, they don't need the Institute technology. Since 200 years people of the Commonwealth eat radiated foods and they are always there.

The Institue can keep their purified waters and foods that they want to make available only for... Synths ? LMAO so funny.

[Moraelin]

You know, since it seems the whole "Institute is good" stupidity seems to rear its head once again, let's go back to what the institute actually does in the game. All of these are canon, and freely available information in the game:

 

- kidnaps and murders people, but also

- is into slavery

- murderized every single delegate when the Commonwealth tried to form a provisional government, plunging it back into chaos

- and have been actively destabilizing the Commonwealth ever since

- killed family members of the Railroad as retaliation

- beta-tested an early Gen 3 (and presumably a prototype courser, by the results) by sending him fully armed into a major settlement, causing the Broken Mask massacre

- experimented on people with FEV, and killed them afterwards (and no, they didn't develop a cure. Virgil's serum only counteracts the one FEV strain HE created.)

- exterminated whole communities just for something they wanted from them (e.g., all the rest of Vault 111),

- or even for something the Institute wanted and THOUGHT they had, but the poor barstards didn't actually have (e.g., University Point),

- are still letting their Gen 1 and 2 exterminate whole communities for nothing more than the scrap,

- sent their top hitman to murderize a top Institute scientist for just trying to run away from the Institute. Mind you, he didn't sell any secrets, nor join any enemies. Just for running away.

- freed you and led you to chase their top hitman just to see how long you'd survive in an unfamiliar hostile world

- proclaim you an enemy on account that, literally, "whoever isn't with us is against us", and start actively sending synths to kill you or murder your settlers, if you don't agree to join IMMEDIATELY

Etc.

 

I mean, frankly, the "institute is good" rationalization beats even the "raiders are good" trolling for sheer stonking stupidity. Not the least because at least most of the latter know they're just taking the mickey, or role-playing on the forum, or whatever you want to call it.

 

The institute does everything the raiders do -- including come up and demand that you let them take stuff (e.g., University Point or the synths that Valentine mentions that come up and dismantle settlements for parts) -- but at least the raiders don't go overkill about killing everyone. You know, on account of return business. They want to rob you again next year too. They'll kill you if you stand up to them, a la Abernathy's daughter, but they let you be if you don't. Whereas the institute kidnapped and murdered people just to infiltrate a settlemment, or to experiment with FEV on -- DECADES after they stopped having a goal for that experimentation -- or just to tie up loose ends, or even for as little as that they want to dismantle your hut for scrap.

 

I mean, for Atom's sake, even the slavers in FO3 don't flat out want whole villages dead. Or they don't go murderize every known relative of someone who opposed them.

 

When even a full-tilt murderous psycho like Kellogg starts questioning why the Institute had him murderize every soul (well, all but one) in Vault 111 instead of just refreezing them, you know it's a low point morality-wise.

 

But anyway, I'm lost as to what kind of confusion of mind would make one look at a faction that does more evil than the Raiders ever did -- and I don't think many mistook THOSE for good between FO1 and FO3 -- and try to rationalize it as the good faction. Is it just an exercise in talking nonsense, or wth?

[iXenite]

- is into slavery

 

 

You cannot enslave machines. Your PC isn't a slave is it? No - it's not. I stopped reading your post after that.

[Moraelin]

Rationalizing dumb BS is so much easier when you just decide to stop reading whatever contradicts that BS, innit? :tongue:

 

But here's the fun part: I don't even have to talk about synths there. The fact that they send an assassin after Virgil when he runs away, plus the fact that before he couldn't choose to do something else than the work that appalled him, essentially makes Virgil a glorified slave. Or a serf at best.

 

Or look at the Biosciences standoff in A House Divided. You can even order them executed for not obeying the beloved leader. And yes, they WILL be executed if you order it. And even that's IF they agreed to stand down and obey you. If they don't obey, the only choice is to outright kill them.

 

The crapsaccharine "utopia" is essentially North Korea with a higher living standard.

[iXenite]

Or look at the Biosciences standoff in A House Divided. You can even order them executed for not obeying the beloved leader. And yes, they WILL be executed if you order it. And even that's IF they agreed to stand down and obey you. If they don't obey, the only choice is to outright kill them.

 

And the Lone Wanderer can choose to blow up Megaton in the opening hours of Fallout 3 for literally no reason. Killing dozens of people in the process. The last time I checked, people that play RPG's liked having a variety of moral choices - including being a merciless killer for no reason at all. Don't even try to act high and mighty about this. It's a waste of time. These games are filled with morally questionable things that you can choose to do. You're not forced to kill those scientists. I didn't kill them. The Institute expected you to treat them harshly, but you don't have to. In addition to that, they listen to your orders. It shows they have the capacity to go away from the "norm". People need to stop seeing these so black and white. It's too easy to place the factions in a strictly "good" and "evil" side. None of them a perfect. Only the Minutemen are free from a majority of the criticisms that are so easy to put against the other factions.

 

Virgil had assassin's sent after him for obvious reasons. He could tell people how to get inside the Institute, which he does, and the Institute didn't want that. They value their privacy underground, and keep most of their business down there. I choose the Institute as a viable faction for the same reason I choose House, or like the Enclave. It's the logical and pragmatic choice. People dislike some of these factions because of the emotions they feel toward their so called "moral" and ethical issues. It's entirely illogical to argue that the Institute is not the best choice for the Commonwealth. It's a massive waste to blow up the Institute.

 

You would literally be throwing away centuries worth of technological and scientific research, and destroying incredibly valuable technology. Plus, you'd be throwing away countless lives that could make a noticeable difference under the right leadership. It's literally the only faction (other than the Minutemen) that the Sole Survivor (which is a good person, it's impossible to evil) can be in direct control of.

 

These factions know what they want, and they know exactly how to accomplish it. They aren't wandering in the dark like the Minutemen or the hilariously stupid Railroad.

[TheMightyArchaon]

There he is, the monster I came to kill ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\з= ( ▀ ͜͞ʖ▀) =ε/̵͇̿̿/’̿’̿ ̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿