My (in-depth) opinion about the Creation Club (as a long-time mod maker)

[shingouki2002]

I've been making mods since the Oblivion days, so I've seen modding go through a ton of changes over the years. Met many creators, made just as many friends, and thoroughly enjoyed the brotherhood/sisterhood camaraderie that the community allows. For that reason, that feeling of brotherhood and unity is something I hold very dear to my heart. The Creation Club does concern me as I feel it could affect that aspect about the modding community...

 

But I still think the Creation Club is a great thing for mod-makers, and I think anyone who tries to stand in the way of that is wrong and misguided.

 

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While the mod community's camaraderie is beautiful and literally the best thing about this community, many people misunderstand why that camaraderie exists in the first place.

It's always been illegal to make money off of Bethesda mods. Their rules for mod making were VERY strict and harshly enforced. I recall an incident where someone took the Knights of the Nine DLC armor (just ONE armor), did a really nice re-texture, edited the model a bit, and re-released it as a mod for free. Bethesda then proceeded to issue them a Cease and Desist order for making it. Beth was worried people could take DLC content and re-release them as free versions of their DLC, which would drop their sales. So they made an example of that mod-maker, and we were humbled by the gravity of it.

Also Beth, gave very little help with modding their games. They gave us the CK for sure, but the documentation is spotty at best. Plus, the tools modders use to view/edit 3D models and make Nif files, are made by mod-makers. Those aren't tools Bethesda gave us. The Nif file format always changes in every Beth game release as well, so they have to decode it every time. That is hard work, and requires passion and genius, which are rare qualities, especially if that tool is created from free labor.

Since we couldn't make money off of mods, and Beth didn't help us much with modding... We were all comrades in arms in this crappy mod system. So it became a smart idea to help each other.

It was great that it worked out that way too, BECAUSE it created an amazing community from that harsh environment. But I always felt that the community's morals were a byproduct of the environment they were creating mods in. So, if modders could make money from their hard work, I always felt they should be able to.

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What I don't think a lot of mod-users understand is that modding is hard work. REALLY hard work. Like harder than your day job, hard work. Making a mod is never as simple as it seems, EVEN if the mod is a simple one. You can't just wave a magic wand, enter the CK for 30 mins, and get a mod to happen. It takes a LOT of dedication to make a mod.

You have to:

1. Learn how to CK works in a general sense
2. Go through the tutorial, (if there even is one), and learn how to make mods in a general sense.
3. If what you want to do doesn't have a reference, you have to try to figure out how all the parts of the CK fit together in order to get your idea to work
4. You have to fail repeatedly just at understanding the CK's complexity and parts.
5. Once you sort of understand how it works, then you have to try to figure out (over a very long time generally), how to even start what you want to do.
6. Try to find tools to help you do what you want to do.
7. You have to act as an artist, 3D modeller, programmer, database editor, game balancer, bug tester, and director of the mod depending on how many assets your mod needs to work.
8. Test the mod over and over and fail. Have the CK crash on you with no explanation.
9. Maybe after weeks or months, sometimes years, with tons of duct tape, trial and error, etc you get something that SORT OF works
10. Package and release the mod.
11. Have tons of people download your mod, like it, but not endorse it...and even less people comment on whether they liked it. Etc
12. Have even less people than that, donate.

Look at SkyUI. That mod is a marvel. It is the base that many mod menus work from. It is THE most endorsed mod on the Skyrim Nexus with 4.5 million unique downloads.

 

That means 4,500,000 different people downloaded SkyUI. But, it only has 605,000 endorsements and 18,500 comments. That's less than 25% people who downloaded it, could be bothered to come back and give it an endorsement or feedback. So you can probably imagine how often donations happen too.

Despite all of that, mod-makers keep selflessly giving away hours/days/weeks/months of their life to create things for free. Which is fine. But when a system comes out to allow the mod-makers to potentially make money off of their hard work... where do you guys get off with judging them for that?

 

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I still can't believe a great mod maker like Chesko got so much hate, that he nearly quit the mod community. The mods he makes are "professional game feature" level quality. Camp Item placement???? Fishing??? Body temperature management based on location??? You can't imagine the amount of work, genius, and hard work that had to be put in to make even ONE of the things he made. Then, the community that he gave so much to for free, pretty much told him to "f*** off" for trying to make a little bit of money? What the heck is up with that?

Why do you guys think a modder's hard work isn't worth a dollar or more? Hell, even 10 cents per download could be life changing for a lot of people. Everyone pays more for Bethesda's DLC. Why do you think someone who devotes a lot of time to creating, editing, testing and fixing doesn't deserve to get paid at all?

 

Even if you're into the idea of "supporting the community", don't you think that if mod-makers got paid more often for their work, you'd be supporting them as members of the community? They could potentially work less at their day jobs, create higher quality content, devote more time to creating, etc. All of which would better the community as a whole.

I can't speak for all mod authors, but I know I at least appreciate any support I'm given. No what support or no matter how small (a thank you goes a long way for me). But I also know the value of being able to receive something more. So, even though I use mods freely all the time, and I love the camaraderie of this community I've felt for 8+ years... I would never try to actively interfere with a mod author attempting to be self-sufficient.

As a mod-maker myself, it's just a bit saddening to be honest. We all invest a lot of time and effort into creating things. We get no financial backing, generally... which isn't a big deal. But when the community we give back to, attack us for trying to benefit from our hard work (while also not necessarily giving back themselves) it just feels a bit selfish and messed up.

If you just want mods to stay free, because you don't want to pay, please just say so. I think that's more honest than trying to sell the idea of "brotherhood and community" as the ultimate reasoning to bash mod-authors for wanting to get some compensation for their work.



My biggest worry for the community isn't really paid mods, but the withholding of information to improve content. But in the same vein, I don't think that'll be as much of a problem, as mods can always be explored, to see how they were made. It's true that Capitalism has a tendency to screw up everything ever but I don't think that's a good enough reason to bash mod authors.

Edited October 16, 2017 by shingouki2002

[Virde]

I agree with you whole-heartedly and honestly this reminds me of the situation for many Artists/Painters in general. People LOVE seeing their work for free, saving it to their computer, make it their background, etc.

But the moment the artist starts selling prints, taking on paid commissions or becomes a free-lance contractor for a business their fanbase turns on them.

 

"You should draw what I want for free, it'll get you publicity!"

 

It's a shame really.

[metaphorset]

Here's my two cents (not as a mod author but instead as somebody who participates in free and open software development since 1995).

Paid mods aren't a bad thing when done right. That would be pretty much everything that needs to be said about that topic, but the catch lies in the "when done right" part. It's simply not possible by Bethesda's rules, and they clearly state that nobody but them are allowed to sell mods.

 

Setting up accounts at paypal or patreon would work, as long as it says "support the artist" and not "buy the mod". In the end it's still a voluntary act so if you really want to break it down by the formula, there is still no true money per point value.

 

Bethesda's first attempt at generating money over steam was a half-hearted attempt that was clearly meant to test the community's reaction and it lead to an overwhelming bad result. And of course some people tried the easy route and vented their fury over the mod authors, because this is what peasants do in the modern age of torch and pitchfork wielding outrage culture ("They don't want to talk, they don't want to reason, they just want change!").

 

As stated above, I participate in and around the development of free and open software for over 20 years now. I could pretty much go through the whole latin alphabet and name at least one project to each letter in which I participated somehow. Writing documentations, finding bugs, fixing bugs, proposing useful functions, contributing new code, initiating new projects,... you name it - I did it. So, where's my gd m-effing money! And I clearly would not have done it, if I didn't want to do it or couldn't find any value in it for myself.

 

Here's the thing: As soon as you put something or even just yourself out there (it really doesn't matter what or if you get paid for it) you are exposed to criticism. For everything you think it's right, there is at least one person who doesn't agree. You can either deal with it or you can't. If you want to do something, do it. (jeez, we are going to quote the little green guy here, aren't we...) But don't expect everybody to be happy about it.

 

If chesko decides that he wants to participate in the microtransaction club, it's his decision and his alone. He's a great guy, a great modder and for me his mods helped changing Skyrim from a bland mess into a memorable experience. Personally I think he deserves all the money he makes and I hope he gets the chance to make a living out of what he enjoys. But it clearly does not mean that I have to like the microtransaction club or thank Bethesda/Zenimax for its existence. Because in the end, whether you, me or the rest of us like it or not: The Creation Club is going to change some things. It's already happening, since we all can pretty much agree on the topic that we really should quit comparing the value of a helmet or a weapon to what we got for the five bucks we paid for Hearthfire. To put it clear: Five Dollar DLCs are history and we're back at horse armor level.

[shingouki2002]

-Snip-

 

Great points man. In truth I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially the concept where when you release something you are leaving it out to criticism by everyone. That's unavoidable.

 

What I was getting more at was the idea of users having a sense of entitlement, and the strong negativity he was receiving compared to how much he's given the community for free. It went to the point where they ended up pulling a potential income stream for him and everyone else. THAT aspect sucks and is really shitty.

 

I agree that Bethesda did a God awful job implementing it originally. I also have no confusion about the fact that Bethesda cares very little about the mod makers and more about the cash that they are missing out on by not selling mods.

 

But still, again some income is better than no income, and it feels wrong to hate on the mod-makers for wanting to take advantage of income. The hate is misplaced, essentially. We just want to try to do what we enjoy and make a little bit at the same time.

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly and honestly this reminds me of the situation for many Artists/Painters in general. People LOVE seeing their work for free, saving it to their computer, make it their background, etc.

 

But the moment the artist starts selling prints, taking on paid commissions or becomes a free-lance contractor for a business their fanbase turns on them.

 

"You should draw what I want for free, it'll get you publicity!"

 

It's a shame really.

Yeah, unfortunately you can't eat exposure, use it to buy things or pay your rent. People seem to miss that somehow.

 

But I think that only happens when people really don't understand how hard it is to create those things. They take it for granted and devalue the artists' work.

[metaphorset]

What I was getting more at was the idea of users having a sense of entitlement, and the strong negativity he was receiving compared to how much he's given the community for free. It went to the point where they ended up pulling a potential income stream for him and everyone else. THAT aspect sucks and is really shitty.

 

 

I don't have any objections here. But then it all leads back to criticism - or to what some people imagine it to be. It's not only THIS community or gamer communities that suffer from it. It's pretty much every community and especially every online community - FOSS communities included. That is exactly what I meant by "torch and pitchfork wielding outrage culture". It has become a socially accepted cultural movement to be outraged, whether there's a reason for it or not.

 

It would be a lie to claim that it's hard to reason with outrage culture people. It's just downright impossible. You can't change them and you won't. Sure, you can try, but it takes away precious time and drains energy that could be put to better use. The good news is that such cultural phenomenons tend to die out once the majority realizes, how stupid they are.

 

I don't know chesko's thoughts about the whole thing. But the fact that he's still around and still works on Last Seed tells me that he's over it to at least some degree.

 

 

But I think that only happens when people really don't understand how hard it is to create those things. They take it for granted and devalue the artists' work.

 

 

That's surely the case. But there are also people who value their contributions way above everyone else's contributions. This also makes it easier to take things for granted. It's pretty much the result of the fact that "the Internet" was originally never planned as a place of competition and commerce. It was intended to be a platform for sharing knowledge, so all people around the world could benefit from it and get smarter. Well, we surely missed that spot...

[nightscrawl]

Paid mods aren't a bad thing when done right. That would be pretty much everything that needs to be said about that topic, but the catch lies in the "when done right" part. It's simply not possible by Bethesda's rules, and they clearly state that nobody but them are allowed to sell mods.

 

But here's the thing. A great many mods are made by editing default assets, whether that is making armor mashups or retextures. An armor like Talos Housecarl takes from Dawnguard armor (lamellar scales, gambeson) and mage apprentice robes (belt), and possibly other bits I don't recognize, while also adding unique textures on top of all that. While it's a wonderful armor and very well done, it still builds on assets Bethesda created. Should that person be allowed to sell that as a full mod and make money from it? I don't think they should.

 

Now, I think this is different from some armor and weapon mods that have been created completely from scratch. But there is a further problem even with this. How is Bethesda supposed to differentiate between mods that are truly unique and mods that aren't? They would have to have large teams of people whose sole job it is to review mod content before allowing them for sale. There also might be problems with copyright violations in using assets from other games. CDPR might allow Witcher assets to be used for free mods, but I highly doubt they would want modders profiting from them.

 

And then there are the mods that change the game itself by doing extensive edits in the Creation Kit, the Creation which is provided by Bethesda, for free. I don't care how buggy and annoying the Creation Kit is. Without it, we wouldn't have nearly the amount of mods that we have. Player-made tools can be great (I use them to mod both Dragon Age: Inquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda), but they will never come close to the kinds of things that are possible with official toolsets. Should people expect to take a tool given by Bethesda for free and use it for their own profit? I don't think they should.

 

 

The previous iteration of paid mods also ran into problems with mod theft. To be frank, it's a logistic and legal nightmare, so it makes sense that Bethesda would just have a blanket, across-the-board ban on selling mods.

 

The Creation Club is much more controlled, so Bethesda has direct overview of every item that will be up for sale. I don't have a problem with the Creation Club and the mod authors that are able to profit from working within that system. Good for them, I say. Despite my previous words, I don't have an issue with mod authors making money from their mods in a general sense. But I do understand, in a practical sense, why Bethesda has a problem with it.

Edited October 17, 2017 by nightscrawl

[metaphorset]

@nightscrawl - yes, of course there are many mods that take ingame assets, and some of them are even just vanilla assets. Furthermore, this was Bethesda's original intention, when they released the first construction set back in 2002.

 

Regarding theft within the community, this goes way back before the Steam "paid mods" thing. It happened in the early days of the nexus and even before, when there was no nexusmods at all and mods where scattered all around the internet across many of the long defunct free hosting sites. People would repackage assets or even whole mods from others with their own readme files and some went even so far to warn "thieves" about the consequences. Compared to that, it's far more less of a problem today.

 

The Creation Club is much more controlled, so Bethesda has direct overview of every item that will be up for sale. I don't have a problem with the Creation Club and the mod authors that are able to profit from working within that system. Good for them, I say. Despite my previous words, I don't have an issue with mod authors making money from their mods in a general sense. But I do understand, in a practical sense, why Bethesda has a problem with it.

 

 

Well, as long as it sounds logical to you...

 

No, it's really not that complicated. Whoever runs the show there does not give a great deal about mods or the quality of mods, nor do they really care if the author has done all the work by themself. The two things they do care a great deal about are a) legal issues (aka not getting sued by competitors ) and b) making money. Just look at the recent history of bethesda.net and how they dealt with the early mod thefts by some real console peasants and their insults and mockery towards the original authors. The only official reaction was "Oh yeah, right. We do something against it as soon as you take legal action".

 

The microtransaction club is going to stay, that's for sure. But you are not going to like its further development (as long as you like to have real mods instead of horse armor, that is). More control does not equal better mods. And never ever in history it stood for more freedom or more creativity. The new .esl format speaks volumes and it clearly shows what's going to happen in the future.

[spookymunky]

But I still think the Creation Club is a great thing for mod-makers, and I think anyone who tries to stand in the way of that is wrong and misguided.

 

What I don't get is the way they keep saying things like this is not paid mods, mod authors are being paid a wage that is not based on how many sales they get, mod authors identities will be kept anonymous etc etc as if it's a good thing... at what point does being a mod author change into being a poor shill working for (presumably, no idea) minimum wage ?

 

Has anyone spilled the beans yet on the payment and terms ? e.g. do you still own anything you make for the creation club ? or is it just like any other job where you have sold your creative soul to el diablo ?

 

How great is it for a mod author if their creation becomes the must have mod that millions of people buy, yet since their wage is split from the sales they just have to make do with amount that was agreed at start, and the fame... oh wait.... :tongue:

 

It's not a nice thing that they are doing in my mind, not nice for anyone involved besides bethesda softworks / zeni / whoever is gettin richer while waving the flag of doing right by the community hehe.

 

This is all just assumptions, I really haven't looked into or followed CC much at all since the whole thing gives me a bad vibe :smile:

[Virde]

Hewre

 

But I still think the Creation Club is a great thing for mod-makers, and I think anyone who tries to stand in the way of that is wrong and misguided.

What I don't get is the way they keep saying things like this is not paid mods, mod authors are being paid a wage that is not based on how many sales they get, mod authors identities will be kept anonymous etc etc as if it's a good thing... at what point does being a mod author change into being a poor shill working for (presumably, no idea) minimum wage ?

 

Has anyone spilled the beans yet on the payment and terms ? e.g. do you still own anything you make for the creation club ? or is it just like any other job where you have sold your creative soul to el diablo ?

 

How great is it for a mod author if their creation becomes the must have mod that millions of people buy, yet since their wage is split from the sales they just have to make do with amount that was agreed at start, and the fame... oh wait.... :tongue:

 

It's not a nice thing that they are doing in my mind, not nice for anyone involved besides bethesda softworks / zeni / whoever is gettin richer while waving the flag of doing right by the community hehe.

 

This is all just assumptions, I really haven't looked into or followed CC much at all since the whole thing gives me a bad vibe :smile:

 

 

 

Bethesda has commented on it, but not payment amounts. I'll post the screenshot here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

So from the looks of it the payrates are done at milestones (from what I read they get paid when they present an Alpha, Beta, and Final Product) and are paid comparable to ALL professional third-party game developers. Meaning the payment depends on the scope of work (which makes sense. Someone making only a single weapon should get paid less than someone who made several weapons of equal quality).

 

The best part is Bethesda treats them like professional game developers and they get that experience for future employment.

[metaphorset]

 

..

 

The best part is Bethesda treats them like professional game developers and they get that experience for future employment.

 

 

That one made me giggle quite a bit. :laugh:

 

Again, if talented modders are treated like professional game developers (whatever that means... :dry: ) and get paid by them for whatever fits into the new scheme, I don't have any problem with it - as long as these modders are aware of that the ultimate outcome of their efforts (and a possibly resulting success for the microtransaction club) is going to change the whole idea of modding. There will be a time when there are no mods for new Bethesda titles on the nexus anymore, because the nexus would be in direct competition with the company's business model. This can (and is going to) be easily achieved by introducing a DRM system. And there are couple of other things that could be done to get a homogeneous mod variety for all platforms - aka no more console fanbois raging over PC elitist modding community.

 

Step 1: No steam achievements for modded games. "Oh well, steam achievements - who cares!" Yeah, right. How about getting VAC-banned, then? It's the idea and all the possibilities behind it that counts.

Step 2: Prevent dll injection. No dll injection -> no script extender -> no advanced modding. And also no post processing like ENB or SweetFX.

Step 3: Abandon Steam. Why? Because of teh moneys. The sweet 30% Steam eats up for every copy that gets sold. Enter "Bethesda.net" including a nice little launcher that needs a login. Combine it with Step 1 and 2. Oh, and it also helps with keeping the bad reviews at bay -> mo' of teh moneys, YAY!

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by metaphorset