spookymunky Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I still see nothing that kills the alarm bells in my head of them just turning modders into freelancers ?.. freelancers that I still have to assume are actually signing over the rights to anything they create... basically taking away the one difference between freelance and contract work.... It's exploitation no matter what way you look at it ?, isn't nice :) Don't get me wrong, freelancing isn't that bad a life.. insta cash is always amazing when you are starving.... sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookymunky Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Sorry if my smiley faces appear in inappropriate places, is just a defense mechanism.. brain refuses to believe anyone can think what bethesda/zeni are doing is a good thing. The OP seems to take pride in the fact that he has been modding since oblivion in a way to show some dominance I guess ?.. I'v been 2d (with apps like autodesk animator) / 3d (with apps like povray) modding since games like doom... Not once have I ever felt hard done by... I used my gfx experience from it to get into the 3d industry, made a proper wage... got it down so I only had to work 3 months a year then just laze around playing games and mod haha. It more than paid it's way for me over the years, to the point I started turning down big games companies and films etc... since screw it.. I know them hehe, maybe not personally, but have seen so many friends just ground into the dirt over the years by these lovely people...you have no idea. It hurts when I see people sucking up to these cold hearted bastards like they are saints... I still know people that are getting ground into the dirt with 15+ hour days etc.. the whole industry is... expletive. I would love to be a full time modder, I know people look at what I have done and scoff but rofl...through personal choices no-one has any idea of what I am capable of :smile:... am a modeller / rigger / coder / animator.. everything but texture artist really haha... sigh. It is just a pipe dream though, there is no way in hell I will ever sign up for CC.. they simply cannot afford me, likewise I will never beg for donations / patreon I dont think... Thanks to the industry breaking my brain with 20-24 hour days in the past I have been close to homeless for so many years now, all of the money is gone... yet I still sometimes donate to mod authors since I appreciate their work. I will some day work my way out of this hole I have dug... it has to be on my own terms though, I would rather starve than try and make money out of this hobby that has given me so much throughout my life. Likewise I would rather starve before I make another millionaire into a multimillionaire etc... again, these aren't nice people, we are nothing to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virde Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 .. The best part is Bethesda treats them like professional game developers and they get that experience for future employment. That one made me giggle quite a bit. :laugh: Again, if talented modders are treated like professional game developers (whatever that means... :dry: ) and get paid by them for whatever fits into the new scheme, I don't have any problem with it - as long as these modders are aware of that the ultimate outcome of their efforts (and a possibly resulting success for the microtransaction club) is going to change the whole idea of modding. There will be a time when there are no mods for new Bethesda titles on the nexus anymore, because the nexus would be in direct competition with the company's business model. This can (and is going to) be easily achieved by introducing a DRM system. And there are couple of other things that could be done to get a homogeneous mod variety for all platforms - aka no more console fanbois raging over PC elitist modding community. Step 1: No steam achievements for modded games. "Oh well, steam achievements - who cares!" Yeah, right. How about getting VAC-banned, then? It's the idea and all the possibilities behind it that counts. Step 2: Prevent dll injection. No dll injection -> no script extender -> no advanced modding. And also no post processing like ENB or SweetFX.Step 3: Abandon Steam. Why? Because of teh moneys. The sweet 30% Steam eats up for every copy that gets sold. Enter "Bethesda.net" including a nice little launcher that needs a login. Combine it with Step 1 and 2. Oh, and it also helps with keeping the bad reviews at bay -> mo' of teh moneys, YAY! Those are extraordinary claims. Do you have any evidence to support these claims that go against everything Bethesda has said past & present and goes against their actions both past & present? Also, being treated as a professional game developer means they now have experience in an industry where work experience trumps all. Getting a job as a Game Developer with a major company without any experience is incredibly difficult. It opens doors for them to not only be re-hired as a freelance developer by Bethesda again, but for any many other companies that want small-scale projects done. I still see nothing that kills the alarm bells in my head of them just turning modders into freelancers ?.. freelancers that I still have to assume are actually signing over the rights to anything they create... basically taking away the one difference between freelance and contract work.... It's exploitation no matter what way you look at it ?, isn't nice :smile: Don't get me wrong, freelancing isn't that bad a life.. insta cash is always amazing when you are starving.... sigh It's no different when companies hire artists for commissions. The artist doesn't own the artwork anymore, they were hired and contracted to do that work for said company or individual. I've hired a number of artists to bring characters I own the rights to alive. They are my characters, the artist cannot sell that art because I own the rights to that character. I can sell that art piece because I paid that artist to create it and was given the original copy. It's my property now. Not theirs. This is no different. Bethesda owns the rights to their labor as per the contract (and the fact that it is their intellectual property). Making it so that the author has claims to sales to it would also allow the author the ability to sell it on their own. This can cause legal issues (and also results in less pay for the artist since they have to wait for the product to be sold to get any $$. If Bethesda waited four months to release the finished product because they wanted to release it with another project the artist had to wait all that time to get paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookymunky Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 It's no different when companies hire artists for commissions. The artist doesn't own the artwork anymore, they were hired and contracted to do that work for said company or individual. I've hired a number of artists to bring characters I own the rights to alive. They are my characters, the artist cannot sell that art because I own the rights to that character. I can sell that art piece because I paid that artist to create it and was given the original copy. It's my property now. Not theirs.This is no different. Bethesda owns the rights to their labor as per the contract (and the fact that it is their intellectual property). Making it so that the author has claims to sales to it would also allow the author the ability to sell it on their own. This can cause legal issues (and also results in less pay for the artist since they have to wait for the product to be sold to get any $$. If Bethesda waited four months to release the finished product because they wanted to release it with another project the artist had to wait all that time to get paid. Technically that isn't true unless whoever you hire signs a contract giving exclusive rights to yourself ? At which point they stop being a freelancer heh... Just because you pay someone to do work for you doesn't mean whatever they make is instantly yours unless you have it in writing, and since legal documents cost moneys few people actually do that (have never signed anything more than a few NDAs over the years, even then that is rare, lol)... This is the same even if they are using your equipment etc, it honestly has to be in very clear and explicit writing :smile: I know it's a silly difference for some, but in my mind it's kind of huge... if they are forcing people to sign over their work then they are no longer "modders", they are no longer freelancers, they are just pretty much employees... employees that would have been hired anyway if bethesda wanted to create dlc, so it's not a "club", it's a new company that is hiring people for low pay and waving that community flag so they can take as much money from the community as they can while hoping no-one notices. As a freelancer, if I had to sign over the full rights to anything I create to a company / individual I would probably tripple the cost (at least)... I hate signing things, and I very much hate handing over the ownership to anything I make to other people, and being asked to do so is so rare that I have never actually come across it hehe... even evil people like sony respect freelancers rights for the most part :smile:... or are too cheap to go that extra mile, lol. So heh, hope you got some bit of paper to back up those commissions :wink:... not like it will ever bite you in the bum, it's just a hmm... dignity thing I guess for most freelancers... we are freelancers because we don't like signing over things willy nilly, we like to be trusted with the full ownership, and like to be trusted enough to never abuse that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookymunky Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 If you are wondering why I keep mentioning freelancers heh, it's purely because in my mind it's the next step from doing something free like modding, so it is the only direct comparison I can make in my mind.. freelancer = paid modder in a way ?.. since you are still an individual artist, and have all the rights that affords you. Anything below that has no relationship whatsoever to modding in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphorset Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Those are extraordinary claims. Do you have any evidence to support these claims that go against everything Bethesda has said past & present and goes against their actions both past & present? Also, being treated as a professional game developer means they now have experience in an industry where work experience trumps all. Getting a job as a Game Developer with a major company without any experience is incredibly difficult. It opens doors for them to not only be re-hired as a freelance developer by Bethesda again, but for any many other companies that want small-scale projects done. No, they aren't really that much extraordinary. It's just that I am getting quite good at predicting things by observing past and present developments. Sometimes things like this come with age. You are more reluctant to believe pretty words just because they sound good and flatter your soul. Being over 50 should have at least some advantages, right? Anyway, it doesn't matter that much what Bethesda people say. Good Guy Todd might really believe in what he says about the modding community and how dedicated the fans are to the franchises and that they would be much smaller as a company if it were any different and that he's grateful and all that stuff... In the end it's Zenimax and the shareholders that run the show and if they tell him to jump, he doesn't even ask "how high", because he knows the answer already. About the experience thing... I wouldn't count too much on that. But then, every little bit might help and beggars can't be choosers, right? I am absolutely not a big fan of ddproductions83 and his antics (although I understand that passion sometimes comes with an attitude), but right now he is more of a game developer than he would be if things were different and he would have decided to join the "Club". Why? Because he has a finished game out there on Steam. It might not be the best game ever, but according to what experienced people ("Extra Credits" for example) say, it's the best first step one can take into the industry. Edited October 19, 2017 by metaphorset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookymunky Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 deleted I guess... didn't come out right, sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virde Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 It's no different when companies hire artists for commissions. The artist doesn't own the artwork anymore, they were hired and contracted to do that work for said company or individual. I've hired a number of artists to bring characters I own the rights to alive. They are my characters, the artist cannot sell that art because I own the rights to that character. I can sell that art piece because I paid that artist to create it and was given the original copy. It's my property now. Not theirs.This is no different. Bethesda owns the rights to their labor as per the contract (and the fact that it is their intellectual property). Making it so that the author has claims to sales to it would also allow the author the ability to sell it on their own. This can cause legal issues (and also results in less pay for the artist since they have to wait for the product to be sold to get any $$. If Bethesda waited four months to release the finished product because they wanted to release it with another project the artist had to wait all that time to get paid. Technically that isn't true unless whoever you hire signs a contract giving exclusive rights to yourself ? At which point they stop being a freelancer heh... Just because you pay someone to do work for you doesn't mean whatever they make is instantly yours unless you have it in writing, and since legal documents cost moneys few people actually do that (have never signed anything more than a few NDAs over the years, even then that is rare, lol)... This is the same even if they are using your equipment etc, it honestly has to be in very clear and explicit writing :smile: I know it's a silly difference for some, but in my mind it's kind of huge... if they are forcing people to sign over their work then they are no longer "modders", they are no longer freelancers, they are just pretty much employees... employees that would have been hired anyway if bethesda wanted to create dlc, so it's not a "club", it's a new company that is hiring people for low pay and waving that community flag so they can take as much money from the community as they can while hoping no-one notices. As a freelancer, if I had to sign over the full rights to anything I create to a company / individual I would probably tripple the cost (at least)... I hate signing things, and I very much hate handing over the ownership to anything I make to other people, and being asked to do so is so rare that I have never actually come across it hehe... even evil people like sony respect freelancers rights for the most part :smile:... or are too cheap to go that extra mile, lol. So heh, hope you got some bit of paper to back up those commissions :wink:... not like it will ever bite you in the bum, it's just a hmm... dignity thing I guess for most freelancers... we are freelancers because we don't like signing over things willy nilly, we like to be trusted with the full ownership, and like to be trusted enough to never abuse that. Sorry, but you are mistaken. If you're hired to make digital content for Bethesda based on intellectual property Bethesda owns (Say Stendarr's Hammer or The Grey Cowl) Bethesda owns it. Period. You, the person who worked on it, does not own it. That's how intellectual property rights work. I own the character, I pay an artist to draw said character, I own that piece of art. They don't. They don't own the intellectual property and thus cannot sell it. I own the property and the art I paid them to draw. I can. Those are extraordinary claims. Do you have any evidence to support these claims that go against everything Bethesda has said past & present and goes against their actions both past & present? Also, being treated as a professional game developer means they now have experience in an industry where work experience trumps all. Getting a job as a Game Developer with a major company without any experience is incredibly difficult. It opens doors for them to not only be re-hired as a freelance developer by Bethesda again, but for any many other companies that want small-scale projects done. No, they aren't really that much extraordinary. It's just that I am getting quite good at predicting things by observing past and present developments. Sometimes things like this come with age. You are more reluctant to believe pretty words just because they sound good and flatter your soul. Being over 50 should have at least some advantages, right? Anyway, it doesn't matter that much what Bethesda people say. Good Guy Todd might really believe in what he says about the modding community and how dedicated the fans are to the franchises and that they would be much smaller as a company if it were any different and that he's grateful and all that stuff... In the end it's Zenimax and the shareholders that run the show and if they tell him to jump, he doesn't even ask "how high", because he knows the answer already. About the experience thing... I wouldn't count too much on that. But then, every little bit might help and beggars can't be choosers, right? I am absolutely not a big fan of ddproductions83 and his antics (although I understand that passion sometimes comes with an attitude), but right now he is more of a game developer than he would be if things were different and he would have decided to join the "Club". Why? Because he has a finished game out there on Steam. It might not be the best game ever, but according to what experienced people ("Extra Credits" for example) say, it's the best first step one can take into the industry. So you're making baseless claims where your only evidence is, "I've been right before, therefore I am right now." The problem with your guess is that Bethesda is using Creation Club to promote free mods on Bethesda.net (naming the author and the mod in the CC news), they're still promoting free mods on their social media by linking to an article THEY wrote containing links to dozens of free mods, and they are paying for a platform to host free mods. I see no reason to believe they will do a 180 on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphorset Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 So you're making baseless claims where your only evidence is, "I've been right before, therefore I am right now." The problem with your guess is that Bethesda is using Creation Club to promote free mods on Bethesda.net (naming the author and the mod in the CC news), they're still promoting free mods on their social media by linking to an article THEY wrote containing links to dozens of free mods, and they are paying for a platform to host free mods. I see no reason to believe they will do a 180 on this. Claims? Yes. Baseless? Not at all. I know, it's a modern thing to ignore every development and predict the possible outcome. Nevertheless - it worked in the past and it's going to work in any given future. Why? Because science proves it. Oh well, I know... it's also a modern thing to deny scientific methods because of... reasons. And of course we do not talk about "a 180", because right now there is only "a 90" left for them to do to be exactly there where I predict them to be. Anyway, time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virde Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 So you're making baseless claims where your only evidence is, "I've been right before, therefore I am right now." The problem with your guess is that Bethesda is using Creation Club to promote free mods on Bethesda.net (naming the author and the mod in the CC news), they're still promoting free mods on their social media by linking to an article THEY wrote containing links to dozens of free mods, and they are paying for a platform to host free mods. I see no reason to believe they will do a 180 on this. Claims? Yes. Baseless? Not at all. I know, it's a modern thing to ignore every development and predict the possible outcome. Nevertheless - it worked in the past and it's going to work in any given future. Why? Because science proves it. Oh well, I know... it's also a modern thing to deny scientific methods because of... reasons. And of course we do not talk about "a 180", because right now there is only "a 90" left for them to do to be exactly there where I predict them to be. Anyway, time will tell. That's not science. Science uses evidence. You've presented none other than you "Feel" you are going to be right because you've been right before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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