ctd seems to happen in most cases of install a location mod please hel

[redskinman316]

it seems i always get a ctd when i install a new location mod like a player home or a dungeon ect. I can install mods like weapons/ Armour or mods that have game effects like faster arrows or new monsters but when i put a new location mod in about 80% of them will ctd withing 2 min.--What is causing this and how do i resolve it???

[garghuul]

I'm not sure if this is related to your problem, however I was having similar issues. It turns out a number of the mods I was having trouble with all share something called " non-parent form "(00012FB4) "

I discovered this by loading them into the Creation Kit to see if I could locate what might be the conflict. (Ambitious, I know. ha ha.) Unfortunately I have no idea how to locate what item that might be. The mods I have this issue with are: Tarramis_Dungeon_01, CoD Waking Nightmare II, MU (Markarth Undercity), Obsidian Caverns, and Quest_TheBiggerTheyAre. Ths issue seems to be prevelant according to the comments listed for a number of mods, but running a search for "dungeon mod ctd" in this section of the forum only turned up your post.

I can run each of these mods seperately, just not at the same time. Fiddling with load order doesn't seem to help either.

Edited April 22, 2012 by garghuul

[David Brasher]

Make sure the meshes and textures that come with the mods are installed properly. Missing meshes can cause CTDs when you get close to them, but before you can even establish visual contact.

[garghuul]

In follow-up to my previous post, here goes:

 

I -think- I have found a way to correct the issue. the form found in the conflicting mods is an object called "NAVI (00012FB4)" the error report in the creation kit chops off the NAVI part for some reason.

I found it using the search for text option under edit in the creation kit. Finding it also produced a few errors, as the object is listed as an "unknown" type. In both cases I deleted the group entry, and now the mods no longer CTD when I load them both in at the same time.

There does not appear to be any ill-effects on either mod, yet. I intend to play through both Terramis's Lost Dungeon and The Harder They Fall to make sure.

Bear in mind what I did is a "dirty" edit, as the CK will report the form list and actual form count for the .esp do not match. If you load the "fixed" .esp into the creation kit there is an option to update the file header to reflect the actual count. I think that is what it does anyways/ Even without loading it into the CK to correct this, the mods seem to run okay for me.

 

My instinctual (and utterly amatuer) explanation is the NAVI form was introduced as a data-artifact, either a legacy from the previous CK that is no longer used in Skyrim and removed in a later CK patch. Or it is a simple glitch caused by anything from sun-spots, to anti-virus on-access scanning, or twinkies sitting too close the the user's CPU. For equally any number of reasons the artifact was "stuck" in some creator's copies of the CK or thier mod .esp, and thus propagated unwittingly. I know next to nothing about how Skyrim parses errors in .esm vs .esp. However the CK reports a few door errors (teleport too close to door) when loaded into the CK.

Since .esp are "simply" modifications of the .esm, and presumably extra .esm files are loaded as a multi-part file by the skyrim client there would be no "duplication" issue for a single .esp creating/altering a single object. But two mods adding/altering the exact same object, even if it's "junk" data would trigger a conflict.

Alternatively Skyrim may be set to allow minor errors/exceptions in an .esm that are not allowed in an .esp for whatever reason.

Either of which would explain why mods rigged to be .esm do not seem to have this issue, and mods that have the issue can run alone but not together.

At best this is a wild guess on my part, I am hardly qualified to be an authority on such matters. The bottom line is removing the "junk" object "NAVI (00012FB4)" from the .esp file appears to correct the conflict with no ill-effects. This statement is anecdotale right now, given the small sample size and lack of extensive testing. Which is to say I can only assure you it works for me, so far

I intend to update this post after I run through both mods to make certain there are no repercussions from making this alteration.

 

UPDATE: Ran through both twice, no apparent issues.

Edited April 24, 2012 by garghuul

[Terramis]

Hello there!

 

This sounds great, without even trying it, it certainly sounds like the type of thing that would cause all these problems:)) Excellent investigative work! So.... I've used the find text function as you've explained to locate the object, it shows up in the text search window, but I cannot delete it there? and cannot find where to delete it from, I searched the .esp details before load and could not find 00012FB4 in the list, there are certainly a couple Navi groups but there is no identifying numbers listed for them in the .esp details so I'm not sure which one to delete:( There is only one Navi group outside the cells I've made nav Mesh's for, it's probably that one I'd guess but would hate to have to redo any of the navmeshing I've done. The one I'm looking at doesnt even have an identifying cell that it goes with, my .esp starts with TES4 and then has the questionable navi group then has my first dungeon cell. So.....I'm a little confused on how to delete it but this deffinitely sounds promising! Let me know in newbie terms where I can delete this thing from! Thanks, and thanks:)))

 

T

[garghuul]

So.....I'm a little confused on how to delete it but this deffinitely sounds promising! Let me know in newbie terms where I can delete this thing from! Thanks, and thanks:)))

T

<Massive Delete>

 

 

Update: I've looked at the NAVI groups for a few different mods, and it does appear that different mods have a different number of subrecords for NAVI. This would indicate it isn't a simple junk file, drat.

I've looked at other mod .esp that have the GRUP(NAVI) and they all have the same formID. 00012FB4

I didn't think of that at all, and don't usually have a companion with me for Skyrim. When I played through the mods none of the NPCs or critters seemed to have any trouble running up to smack me, those that had sandbox interactions were doing thier thing without issues as far as I could tell. (Sleeping, praying, crafting.).

 

*sigh* Looks like I might be back to square one. Dammit. :wallbash:

 

I don't understand why the CK reports the conflict between the navmeshing though. Or why navmeshing uses the same formID over and over when it causes a conflict.

Edited April 25, 2012 by garghuul

[Terramis]

I think I got it, I only had the one Grup:Navi in the file so it has to be that one, I got TESVsnip to do it http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=5064 the rest were all Grup:NavM which I assume are my meshes.

 

I tested and everything seems fine in the file after, navmeshes appear unharmed and if anything I think I saw a performance gain (could be my imaginations lol). Anywho I wasn't having the conflicts in the first place, so hard for me to test if the ctd is gone. Perhaps since you were having the problems you could test it out. Latest version at:

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=12935

Edited April 25, 2012 by Terramis

[Ghaunadaur]

Good morning,

 

Just read this thread and maybe I can make a little note on that: Afaik, the NAVI masterdata contains information about the connections between the navmeshes, so a NPC will know, how to get from one area to another. It also makes the doors work correctly. If a mod changes or adds doors, it will be necessary to keep the NAVI data, I think, or it can break the doors function or making a NPC unable to follow the player. This is how I understand it.

 

Btw: As there is only one NAVI masterdata, it always has the same formID, only the subrecords differ.

 

 

 

Regards

Ghaun

[Terramis]

Good morning,

 

Just read this thread and maybe I can make a little note on that: Afaik, the NAVI masterdata contains information about the connections between the navmeshes, so a NPC will know, how to get from one area to another. It also makes the doors work correctly. If a mod changes or adds doors, it will be necessary to keep the NAVI data, I think, or it can break the doors function or making a NPC unable to follow the player. This is how I understand it.

 

Btw: As there is only one NAVI masterdata, it always has the same formID, only the subrecords differ.

 

 

 

Hiya:) I think this is also correct but not mutualy exclusive, if I'm understanding you correctly. The game should use the vanilla masterdata Navi regardless ? I think what he was saying was that in making the mod and/or load doors some change is being made to that masterdata navi that shouldnt be happening, and hence we are all inadvertently changing the same thing, causing the conflicts with mods that should for no legitimate reason be conflicting... or perhaps I'm not understanding. What we're hoping is that by deleting the modded navi form we can then resave and have a clean version without the unexpected change. Fortunately thus far npc's seem to be using doors regularly, at least for me after trying this, so we'll see what happens:))) either way, the more eyeballs on this the better so thanks!

[garghuul]

Aternoon, thanks for the info Terramis and Ghaunaduar.

 

After a bit of fiddling, it seem the CK adds Grup(NAVI) to the file when you use it to correct the file header. This seems to indicate that it is an automated process,. The CK detecting it as an object, let alone conflicts may or may-not be an unrelated bug. That it is part of .esp files which contain doors that link areas (loading doors?) seems to be normal.

 

The 7 or so mods I had that seemed to be conflicting will at least load in with the updated Terramis_Forgotten_Ruins_1-2. They are still unable to load in with each other, so in-depth testing will take a bit.

 

From what Ghaunaduar said I might hazard a guess that NAVI masterfile is for un-escorted NPCs using doors to zone, as opposed to Companions/Followers. For dungeon crawl mods with nothing but enemies I would think the lack of NAVI should not be a problem, At best it is still a workaround either way, certainly not a cure-all.

 

Thankyou for the input, and I'll post again when I have more info.