Robathon Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) I receive somewhere between 55 and 60 FPS while indoors. Whether in a player home like Elysium Estate, up in Dragonsreach, or down in the Bannered Mare, with or without a room full of NPCs and/or followers, it remains within that range. It fluctuates depending on the activity, but usually settles at 60. 59.8 if you want absolute precision! Once outside, whether in the middle of a city or as far away from civilization as possible, the FPS is cut in half. It won't climb higher than 42 FPS unless I look at the sky, at the ground, at a wall or a fire. Seemingly at random, I'll leave an interior and the FPS will fall even lower in the range of 15 to 20, and won't budge even with a restart. I have disabled/enabled suspected mods, checked for any missed patches, paid heed to the incompatibilities of mods, ran LOOT, double checked with Wyre Bash, followed the STEP guide for enblocal.ini and scoured the interwebs for two weeks in search of answers. I cannot, for the life of me, figure this out! Specs:CPU: Intel i5-4570 @ 3.2 GHz.GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970.RAM: 8 GB.OS: Windows 10. -_- It updated without my consent! ENB: RealVision. Plugins: Skyrim.esmUpdate.esmDawnguard.esmHearthFires.esmDragonborn.esmUnofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.espETaC - RESOURCES.esmhdtHighHeel.esmRSkyrimChildren.esmOSA.esmCampfire.esmClimatesOfTamriel.esmApachii_DivineEleganceStore.esmSchlongs of Skyrim - Core.esmHighResTexturePack01.espHighResTexturePack02.espHighResTexturePack03.espUnofficial High Resolution Patch.espSimplyKnock.espSkyUI.espiHUD.espEnhancedLightsandFX.espVivid Landscapes.espSkyrim Particle Patch for ENB - Flame Atronach Fix.espETaC - Complete.espELFX - Exteriors.espimmersive roads.espEpisodeParallax.espAMB Glass Variants Lore.espDifferently Ebony.espdD - Enhanced Blood Main.espdD-Dragonborn-Dawnguard-EBT Patch.espdD-Reduced Wound Size.espDeadlySpellImpacts.espBook Covers Skyrim.espImmersive Orc Strongholds.espUnique Shops and Stores.espScottishBanneredMare.espSLO_StoneWalls.espImmersive Whiterun.espImmersive Solstheim.espSMIM-Merged-All.espaMidianborn_Skyforge_Weapons.espFISS.espAMatterOfTime.espLessIntrusiveHUD.espTMBVanillaArmorandClothes.espBeards.espBrows.espFacelight.espKS Hairdo's.espRaceMenu.espRaceMenuPlugin.espRaceMenuMorphsUUNP.espdD - 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Troops Re-equipment.espStormLord.espS7B Mavari.esp9204 BDO Pack 2.0 by Team Tal Test7.esp9204 BDO Armor Pack II 1.0 by Team TAL.esp[GLT]BDO india.espSithis Armour.espFineImperialDress.espXXsandrineHH.esp[Dint] BDO Dark_Knight (Female).espChaphelBDOZereth.espBlacktalonArmorV11UNP.espDEM Victorian.espCiri's DLC Outfit.espKatarina.espMinerva.espOrchid.espApachii_DivineEleganceStore_Patch.espIB - All-in-One.espBijin NPCs.espElysiumEstate.espFarmhouseChimneys.espRealisticWaterTwo.espRealisticWaterTwo - Legendary.espRealistic Boat Bobbing.espRBB - Realistic Water Two.espWatercolor_for_ENB_RWT.espSkyrim Flora Overhaul.espVerdant - A Skyrim Grass Plugin.espSignTown_by_YURIL_1o5.espSkysan_ENBHorseTrough.espEmbersHD.espCloaks - Dawnguard.espLeijonaFollower.espBrevi_MoonlightTales.espSunsakuka's Eliel Version 1.espBladeOfIntrigue_Eng.espMedusa and Drakul Armors.espContractor Armor.espEvil MasterMind Armor.espMeekoReborn.esptetro - Lilu.espMavari Armor.espFenrir Blades.espLanfael.espTheEyesOfBeauty.espOrcFemaleWalk.espEitra.espnola.espAlfottes Followers.espSunsakuka's Clochette.espShannon2.espVanya Follower.espBannanette Follower.espNila.espWendigo.espNelthas Dareathys Follower.espAmbra Methir Follower.esprtZuleikaFollower.espNimiel Sajia Follower.esphaijin NPCs - Babette.espKailanahFollower.espVolrina.espNela Stonewulf Follower.espSunsakuka's Follower.espImmersive Wenches -KS hairs- Patch.espBrothers.espElementalArrows.espRelationship Dialogue Overhaul.espRDO - USLEEP Patch.espRDO - AFT v1.66 Patch.espSexLab-AmorousAdventures.espMy Home Is Your Home.espUIExtensions.espAddItemMenu2.espFantasy Soundtrack Project.espFantasy Soundtrack Project - Combat.espSchlongs of Skyrim.espSOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.espAlternate Start - Live Another Life.espAlternate Start -- New Beginnings.espFarmhouseChimneysLAL.espTheAmazingWorldOfBikiniArmor.esp Loadorder: Skyrim.esmUpdate.esmDawnguard.esmHearthFires.esmDragonborn.esmUnofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.espETaC - RESOURCES.esmhdtHighHeel.esmRSkyrimChildren.esmOSA.esmCampfire.esmClimatesOfTamriel.esmApachii_DivineEleganceStore.esmSchlongs of Skyrim - Core.esmHighResTexturePack01.espHighResTexturePack02.espHighResTexturePack03.espUnofficial High Resolution Patch.espSimplyKnock.espSkyUI.espiHUD.espEnhancedLightsandFX.espVivid Landscapes.espSkyrim Particle Patch for ENB - Flame Atronach Fix.espETaC - Complete.espELFX - Exteriors.espimmersive roads.espEpisodeParallax.espAMB Glass Variants Lore.espDifferently Ebony.espdD - Enhanced Blood Main.espdD-Dragonborn-Dawnguard-EBT Patch.espdD-Reduced Wound Size.espDeadlySpellImpacts.espBook Covers Skyrim.espImmersive Orc Strongholds.espUnique Shops and Stores.espScottishBanneredMare.espSLO_StoneWalls.espImmersive Whiterun.espImmersive Solstheim.espSMIM-Merged-All.espaMidianborn_Skyforge_Weapons.espFISS.espAMatterOfTime.espLessIntrusiveHUD.espTMBVanillaArmorandClothes.espBeards.espBrows.espFacelight.espKS Hairdo's.espRaceMenu.espRaceMenuPlugin.espRaceMenuMorphsUUNP.espdD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Realistic.espXPMSE.espSOSRaceMenu.espHDTPhysicsWeaponSling.espFNIS_PCEA2.espFNISSexyMove.espBijin Warmaidens.espThe Ordinary Women.espBijin Wives.espSerana.espValerica.espImprovedLucien.espCloaks.espRun For Your Lives.espJKs Whiterun.espfallentreebridges.espSRX_ImperialFemaleFace.espJKs Windhelm.espJKs Solitude.espImmersive Wenches.espETaC - Dragon Bridge South.espSkysan_ELFX_SMIM_Fix.espHearthfireMultiKid.espHearthfireMultiKid_LastName.espRSChildren.espRSChildren Patch - USLEEP.esp1nivWICCloaks.esp1nivWICSkyCloaksPatch.espAmazingFollowerTweaks.espConvenient Horses.espMales of Skyrim.espWhen Vampires Attack.espBetter Vampires.espVL No AoE Drain.espDVA - Dynamic Vampire Appearance.espSighne.espzzArmormashups.espWT Tribal Clothe.espScarletDawnArmor.esp[NINI]OrwenTravel.espFNIS.espCrimsonTwilightArmor.espClimatesOfTamriel-Dawnguard-Patch.espClimatesOfTamriel-Dragonborn-Patch.espCoT-WeatherPatch.espVividian - Extended Groundfogs - CoT.espCoT-WeatherPatch_DB.espCoT-WeatherPatch_Snow-40.espToccata as Elisif.espXXZhumoyiHH.espXXCleadHH.espDCR_Blade_Set_Reloaded_v1_0.espUNP Royal Hunting.espMerta Assassin Armor.espRanger Outfit.espDraugr Marauder Light Armors combined.espMerta Black Rose Armor.espBDLeatherRobe.espK9Armor.espFS_Ygrayne.espkimono's witcher silver swords.espPerfect Legionnaire - Troops Re-equipment.espStormLord.espS7B Mavari.esp9204 BDO Pack 2.0 by Team Tal Test7.esp9204 BDO Armor Pack II 1.0 by Team TAL.esp[GLT]BDO india.espSithis Armour.espFineImperialDress.espXXsandrineHH.esp[Dint] BDO Dark_Knight (Female).espChaphelBDOZereth.espBlacktalonArmorV11UNP.espDEM Victorian.espCiri's DLC Outfit.espKatarina.espMinerva.espOrchid.espApachii_DivineEleganceStore_Patch.espIB - All-in-One.espBijin NPCs.espElysiumEstate.espFarmhouseChimneys.espRealisticWaterTwo.espRealisticWaterTwo - Legendary.espRealistic Boat Bobbing.espRBB - Realistic Water Two.espWatercolor_for_ENB_RWT.espSkyrim Flora Overhaul.espVerdant - A Skyrim Grass Plugin.espSignTown_by_YURIL_1o5.espSkysan_ENBHorseTrough.espEmbersHD.espCloaks - Dawnguard.espLeijonaFollower.espBrevi_MoonlightTales.espSunsakuka's Eliel Version 1.espBladeOfIntrigue_Eng.espMedusa and Drakul Armors.espContractor Armor.espEvil MasterMind Armor.espMeekoReborn.esptetro - Lilu.espMavari Armor.espFenrir Blades.espLanfael.espTheEyesOfBeauty.espOrcFemaleWalk.espEitra.espnola.espAlfottes Followers.espSunsakuka's Clochette.espShannon2.espVanya Follower.espBannanette Follower.espNila.espWendigo.espNelthas Dareathys Follower.espAmbra Methir Follower.esprtZuleikaFollower.espNimiel Sajia Follower.esphaijin NPCs - Babette.espKailanahFollower.espVolrina.espNela Stonewulf Follower.espSunsakuka's Follower.espImmersive Wenches -KS hairs- Patch.espBrothers.espElementalArrows.espRelationship Dialogue Overhaul.espRDO - USLEEP Patch.espRDO - AFT v1.66 Patch.espSexLab-AmorousAdventures.espMy Home Is Your Home.espUIExtensions.espAddItemMenu2.espFantasy Soundtrack Project.espFantasy Soundtrack Project - Combat.espSchlongs of Skyrim.espSOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.espAlternate Start - Live Another Life.espAlternate Start -- New Beginnings.espFarmhouseChimneysLAL.espTheAmazingWorldOfBikiniArmor.esp If there's anything else you need to help me troubleshoot this issue, I will be beyond eager to provide that for you! Edited October 23, 2017 by Veronas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robathon Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 When I started the Bleak Falls Barrow quest, I watched my FPS drop from 60 inside Dragonreach to 10. A steady decline the longer the conversations went on. I moved outside, even exited the city, and it still didn't change. Started another new save after deleting all the others and exiting the game. 60 FPS indoors, 40 FPS outdoors. Ran from the southmost border post in Skyrim, through all of Falkreath Hold, fighting and riding horses with two followers in tow. 40 FPS. Spent the night at a campsite, recruited a third follower, rode around and fought some more, went through Rorikstead. 40 FPS. Went inside the Frostfruit Inn, left all of my followers there, went outside. 20 FPS. Went out and in a couple more times, with and without followers, and still 20 FPS was my max. Rage quit, watched an episode of Lucifer, ate some ice cream, and felt better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted3082751User Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) MODS: ETAC <-- Very Resource Intensive (All Modules) can cause severe frame drops Skyrim Flora Overhaul <-- Very Resource Intensive, can cause severe frame drops ELFX (Exteriors Module) <-- Can Conflict with mods that edit Exterior Cells, which would cause Severe Frame Drops or other issues Immersive Roads <-- Can Cause Frame Drops (unknown severity however) Episode Parralax <-- Can Cause Frame Drops (although usually minor) SMIM <- Can cause conflicts with Enhanced Lights And FX (Exteriors Module) causing severe frame drops Climates of Tamriel <-- Fairly Resource Intensive, can cause frame drops if you lack sufficient resources (Memory) or GPU and CPU power Realistc Water two <-- Fairly Resource Intensive, can cause frame drops if you lack sufficient resources (Memory) or GPU and CPU power Note: the other mods i either Don't recognize or are probably not resource intensive/ would not cause frame drops or only minor frame drops Note: Skysan_ELFX_SMIM_Fix only applies to ELFX (interior Module) i believe, however it does not fix all Cells (Severe Framerate Drops can still occur in certain locations, in interiors) Note: SMIM Can cause severe framerates in both interiors and exteriors, it would be a conflict between SMIM and Enhanced Lights and Fx, Its The Chandeliers and Chains that causes these framerate drops, Re-Install SMIM and disable the chains as well as the chandelier option, and that should fix your framerates in specific locations, both interiors and exteriors, a way to know if it is this mod is, look at the chains on the bridge very close to whiterun entrance, if you get massive framedrops then its the chains that is causing it, also another location, is look at the blacksmith in riverwood, again if you get a massive from drop looking at it at a very specific location, then its the chains again. i believe this issue is caused by SMIM Conflicting with Enhanced lights and Fx (or vice versa). ENB: The most resource intensive ENB Settings that could lower Framerate by a lot Are: Ambient Occlusion <-- the most resource intensive setting, this setting will also increase temperatures by a fair bit SSAO <-- goes hand in hand with above setting (Screen Space Ambient Occlusion) Depth Of Field <-- not really resoursource intensive, but will drop framerate, however it will usally be a minor frame rate drop (about 5 fps max) although more extreme DOF could decrease framerate even further and likewise increase its resource intensity My Advice, Disable all Enb Settings and Mods mentioned above, and see if the problem persists Edited October 25, 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robathon Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 MODS: ETAC <-- Very Resource Intensive (All Modules) can cause severe frame drops Skyrim Flora Overhaul <-- Very Resource Intensive, can cause severe frame drops ELFX (Exteriors Module) <-- Can Conflict with mods that edit Exterior Cells, which would cause Severe Frame Drops or other issues Immersive Roads <-- Can Cause Frame Drops (unknown severity however) Episode Parralax <-- Can Cause Frame Drops (although usually minor) SMIM <- Can cause conflicts with Enhanced Lights And FX (Exteriors Module) causing severe frame drops Climates of Tamriel <-- Fairly Resource Intensive, can cause frame drops if you lack sufficient resources (Memory) or GPU and CPU power Realistc Water two <-- Fairly Resource Intensive, can cause frame drops if you lack sufficient resources (Memory) or GPU and CPU power Note: the other mods i either Don't recognize or are probably not resource intensive/ would not cause frame drops or only minor frame drops Note: Skysan_ELFX_SMIM_Fix only applies to ELFX (interior Module) i believe, however it does not fix all Cells (Severe Framerate Drops can still occur in certain locations, in interiors) Note: SMIM Can cause severe framerates in both interiors and exteriors, it would be a conflict between SMIM and Enhanced Lights and Fx, Its The Chandeliers and Chains that causes these framerate drops, Re-Install SMIM and disable the chains as well as the chandelier option, and that should fix your framerates in specific locations, both interiors and exteriors, a way to know if it is this mod is, look at the chains on the bridge very close to whiterun entrance, if you get massive framedrops then its the chains that is causing it, also another location, is look at the blacksmith in riverwood, again if you get a massive from drop looking at it at a very specific location, then its the chains again. i believe this issue is caused by SMIM Conflicting with Enhanced lights and Fx (or vice versa). ENB: The most resource intensive ENB Settings that could lower Framerate by a lot Are: Ambient Occlusion <-- the most resource intensive setting, this setting will also increase temperatures by a fair bit SSAO <-- goes hand in hand with above setting (Screen Space Ambient Occlusion) Depth Of Field <-- not really resoursource intensive, but will drop framerate, however it will usally be a minor frame rate drop (about 5 fps max) although more extreme DOF could decrease framerate even further and likewise increase its resource intensity My Advice, Disable all Enb Settings and Mods mentioned above, and see if the problem persists I disabled half of these before and found the issue persists, but I will disable the other half to see the results! Thank you. ELFX is a new addition to my mod order, as last time I played, on a worse machine, it didn't exist. I used RLO that time. However, it doesn't sound like any of these would cause my FPS to drastically drop during the activation of Bleak Falls Barrow - especially indoors where I get 60+ FPS. The only reason it's not higher is my limiter. Am I mistaken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted3082751User Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) RLO is much more light weight as oppose to ELFX, ELFX is pretty resource intensive. which as mentioned above can cause severe framerate drops. but this are primarily caused by mod conflicts. as for limiter, yes you would achiever higher fps (assuming Vsync is also disabled as this does the same thing as a limiter but this introduces input lag), as the 970 is pretty decent card. however even uncapping the fps, if you go to a problem area you will still only get the fps that your are currently getting Example: if your fps is dropping to 10fps, even if you could achieve 130 fps, it will still drop to 10 fps in problem areas. if the game is not setup properly even the most powerful computers will receive severe unplayable frame drops. i have seen dual 1080s receive severe frame drops, and as u can imagine these cards are on a whole other level of performance, especially 2 of them together. Not sure what you mean by "Activation of Bleak Falls Barrow" ? Edited October 25, 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robathon Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 RLO is much more light weight as oppose to ELFX, ELFX is pretty resource intensive. which as mentioned above can cause severe framerate drops. but this are primarily caused by mod conflicts. as for limiter, yes you would achiever higher fps (assuming Vsync is also disabled as this does the same thing as a limiter but this introduces input lag), as the 970 is pretty decent card. however even uncapping the fps, if you go to a problem area you will still only get the fps that your are currently getting Example: if your fps is dropping to 10fps, even if you could achieve 130 fps, it will still drop to 10 fps in problem areas. if the game is not setup properly even the most powerful computers will receive severe unplayable frame drops. i have seen dual 1080s receive severe frame drops, and as u can imagine these cards are on a whole other level of performance, especially 2 of them together. Not sure what you mean by "Activation of Bleak Falls Barrow" ? Under normal circumstances, I can hang out in Dragonsreach with a consistent 60 FPS. I have yet to locate an interior where I'm not at 60 FPS. I spent 20 minutes in Dragonsreach during one test and there was never a notable change to FPS. Depending on what I was doing, it went down to 55-56, but that was it. I went all over, interacted with NPCs, and even tested out some other mods while inside. When I started Bleak Falls Barrow (reporting the sighting at Helgen, being introduced to Farengar), I watched my FPS fall to the 50s, 40s, 30s, 20s and then to 10 before all the conversations ended. It only happened with the activation of the quest. Otherwise? 60 FPS always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robathon Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 I didn't have time to disable the other mods tonight, but I did manage to do the chain test! I loaded up an alternate start in Breezehome. 60 FPS inside the home. Went outside and it became 10 FPS. Not even 40 this time. 10 FPS. With no changes since making this thread. Anyway, I managed to vacate the city where the FPS was 12-15. Went over to the bridge, turned left and looked at the chain. The chain centered on my screen, the fire to the left of it and the running water to the right, my FPS rapidly went up to 20-22 FPS. I turned away from the chain, fire and water, and it went back down to 12-15. I started another new game in Riverwood at the Sleeping Giant Inn. 60 FPS inside, 10 FPS outside. Went over to the blacksmith, put the area in the middle of my screen, and it went up to 17 FPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted3082751User Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) Under normal circumstances, I can hang out in Dragonsreach with a consistent 60 FPS. I have yet to locate an interior where I'm not at 60 FPS. I spent 20 minutes in Dragonsreach during one test and there was never a notable change to FPS. Depending on what I was doing, it went down to 55-56, but that was it. I went all over, interacted with NPCs, and even tested out some other mods while inside. When I started Bleak Falls Barrow (reporting the sighting at Helgen, being introduced to Farengar), I watched my FPS fall to the 50s, 40s, 30s, 20s and then to 10 before all the conversations ended. It only happened with the activation of the quest. Otherwise? 60 FPS always. so basically it might be a dialogue based issue, but also very likely a script based issue. a Few Questions to get a better understanding of what is going on: 1. are you running any mod that edits the dialogue interface (Sky Ui, Better Dialog Boxes, Better Message Box Controls, etc etc, basically any mod that edits the UI or Elements of a Dialogue Box) Note: SKSE plugins will not appear in your load order, and thus is why i ask, of which the mentioned mods are skse plugins. 2. Are You running SKSE and if So What Plugins are you using (list all of them) 3. Have you modified your ini files at all, Especially the Papyrus Settings 4. What is your CPU, GPU and Memory Usage and Tempertures when playing the game, we need to know if this could even be hardware based issue, also is your system fully up to date as in, you have all the latest windows updates, nvidia driver updates, motherboard drivers up to date, etc etc, come to think of it, a Gtx 970 should not be dropping to 10 fps, even severe frame drops would usually be 30 fps not 10 fps, this sounds like a hardware issue, could be throttling or bottleneck (pretty much the same thing but throttling can also be caused by high temperatures) Edited October 25, 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robathon Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 1. I do have SkyUI, but none of the others. The only mods I have that could affect the dialogue boxes are AFT, Convenient Horses and My Home Is Your Home. However, I don't think these are what you're referring to as they only add dialogue options, and weren't installed before running into this FPS issue. 2. I am running SKSE. As far as I know, all mods that require it are listed in the plugins list above. Is there a better way to check that than by memory and MCM? It's a long list, I realize, so I will go through my MCM and list the specific ones, if you like! 3. I am using the Optimized INI files uGrids 5 provided in the optional files of the RealVision (performance version) ENB. I'm also using the STEP guide for the enblocal.ini. 4. I will install a monitor and obtain that information for you as soon as possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robathon Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) Under normal circumstances, I can hang out in Dragonsreach with a consistent 60 FPS. I have yet to locate an interior where I'm not at 60 FPS. I spent 20 minutes in Dragonsreach during one test and there was never a notable change to FPS. Depending on what I was doing, it went down to 55-56, but that was it. I went all over, interacted with NPCs, and even tested out some other mods while inside. When I started Bleak Falls Barrow (reporting the sighting at Helgen, being introduced to Farengar), I watched my FPS fall to the 50s, 40s, 30s, 20s and then to 10 before all the conversations ended. It only happened with the activation of the quest. Otherwise? 60 FPS always. 4. What is your CPU, GPU and Memory Usage and Tempertures when playing the game, we need to know if this could even be hardware based issue, also is your system fully up to date as in, you have all the latest windows updates, nvidia driver updates, motherboard drivers up to date, etc etc, come to think of it, a Gtx 970 should not be dropping to 10 fps, even severe frame drops would usually be 30 fps not 10 fps, this sounds like a hardware issue, could be throttling or bottleneck (pretty much the same thing but throttling can also be caused by high temperatures) I loaded up the same save where I was running at 40 FPS before, then at 10 FPS for reasons I can't fathom, and now it's back to running at 40 FPS. -_- Anyway, here is a screenshot of the performance results. It's only about five minutes worth of game time. I was playing for a half an hour before that, but, apparently, the performance monitor wasn't working. https://orig00.deviantart.net/986d/f/2017/298/7/c/screenshot_1_by_irobathon-dbrqkze.jpg And this one is me playing out in the Whiterun tundra for about 45 minutes at 15 FPS. This was grueling! https://orig00.deviantart.net/ab09/f/2017/299/a/b/screenshot_2_by_irobathon-dbrr3ma.jpg Edited October 26, 2017 by Veronas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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