LE Main Quest/Civil War Overhaul

[behughes]

I've been thinking about the Main Quest and Civil War quest in Skyrim, and like many, I am more than a little disappointed in poor pacing and lack of real consequences in the story arc. The beginning feels very rushed, dragging you along, never letting you CHOOSE to participate. You get pulled into the dragon debacle, and from there you never get a chance to do your own thing without feeling the nagging urgency of the dragon crisis breathing down your neck. In the face of the dragon threat, the civil war feels petty and irrelevant, and yet, even the dragon crisis has no real gravitas.

 

So I came up with this revised story arc that allows the player to choose when to participate, adding more branches and different outcomes, and intertwining the civil war plot with the main story so it seems more relevant. I think these ideas could be implemented as a mod fairly easily, though I know some parts are ambitious and rather challenging. I would love to put together a modding team for this, so if anyone is interested in taking this idea and running with it, please PM me! While I don't personally know how to make mods, create or edit quests, or change dialogue in the CK, I can write dialogue and design quests at the creative level, and I can also lend my voice as an actor if needed.

 

The summarized, bullet-point version goes something like this:

 

-After completing "Before the Storm," the quest "Bleak Falls Barrow" is delayed, allowing you to adventure as you see fit.

-Ralof or Hadvar, (whomever you DID NOT help in "Unbound") asks to meet with you, soliciting you to join their cause in the Civil War.

-After some time passes, Jarl Balgruuf sends you a letter, inviting you to speak with him, initiating "Bleak Falls Barrow." Dragons begin appearing.

-You can "refuse" the call to High Hrothgar, postponing "The Way of the Voice" until you see fit, again freeing you to continue exploring and adventuring.

-After completing "Alduin's Wall," Esbern suggests that you gain "influence" in the nine holds.

-A new quest, in which you are captured by the Thalmor, gives you the option to join them, disband the Blades, and sabotage both the Legion and Stormcloaks.

-"Season Unending" is now much more difficult, requiring high Speech skills and political influence (Thane status). Failure forces you to get involved in the Civil War.

-You can now, with considerable difficulty, convince the Blades to continue to follow you, even if you do not kill Paarthurnax.

 

And so, many new outcomes will be available:

 

-If you join the Thalmor, you can remain loyal and destroy the Blades once and for all, or play-double agent and rejoin the Blades in a campaign against the Thalmor.

-If you spare Paarthurnax, he will lead the dragons after Alduin's defeat, making many of them your loyal allies. If not, the dragons will regroup and return with a vengeance!

-More options will be added to the Civil War quest, allowing you to champion one side or the other, play peacemaker, or maintain perpetual war.

 

 

For more in-depth details on the narrative, branching story lines, and outcomes, continue reading below:

 

- - - - -

 

ACT I

 

>>After the dragon attacks Helgen, you escape with either Hadvar or Ralof and head for Riverwood. You are then asked by your new host to send word of the dragon attack to Whiterun’s Jarl.

 

>>The Jarl of Whiterun answers your call for aid, and begins preparing to protect his hold against future dragon attacks. He thanks you for your service to his people, rewards you, and tells you he may have need of you again in the future. If you show willingness to serve the hold, he will suggest you speak Avenicci for work. If not, he will remark that you are free to do as you will, and wishes you luck.

 

>>As you exit Dragonsreach - unless you have already jumped into the Civil War questline and completed “The Jagged Crown” at this point - a courier will give you a “letter from a friend,” which indicates that you should meet with him in Whiterun. Depending on who you helped in “Unbound”, this meeting will be with a representative of the Imperial Legion or the Stormcloaks (ex: If you escape Helgen with Hadvar, Ralof and the Stormcloaks will meet you).

The meeting will be hosted by the Battle-born clan (for Imperials) or the Grey-mane clan (for Stormcloaks). The faction representatives will appeal with you to join their cause. If you already possess the Jagged Crown but have not delivered it to the respective faction leader, they will acknowledge this, otherwise they will simply ask you to meet their respective leader and join up. You can agree, or remain undecided, at which point the meeting ends.

 

>>You are now free to do as you see fit. You can join a guild, do quests for Avenicci or the townsfolk, fight in the civil war, or just roam freely, killing elk if that’s the sort of thing you’re into.

However, at some point (after a certain number of days have passed), a letter will be delivered to you from the Jarl of Whiterun, urgently asking you to return to his hold and speak with him concerning the dragons. You can go speak to him, or postpone as long as you like, but at this point, dragons will gradually start appearing in the game, and radiant quests involving protecting towns and villages from dragons will appear.

 

>>When you meet with the Jarl, he will direct you to speak with his court wizard, and you will be given the quest “Bleak Falls Barrow”. After returning with the tablet and subsequently completing “Dragon Rising,” the Jarl will tell you to visit the High Hrothgar, with dialogue options to accept or reject his suggestion.

 

>>You are again free to do as you wish. As the dragon attacks get worse, and you begin learning words of power and gaining dragon souls, you can decide for yourself to visit the Greybeards and resume the main story. From this point on, the Main Quest and Civil War Quest remain pretty much as normal, up to the point of the quest “Season Unending,” with a few branching options mentioned below.

 

ACT II

 

>> After completing “Alduin’s Wall” and recruiting new members for the Blades, Esbern will hint that your influence in the holds may serve your cause, urging you to visit the nine holds. You may quest to become the Thane in the various holds, though each Jarl will now require that you have slain a dragon that threatened their hold before you are given the title of Thane. You can call upon the Blades for aid in this effort.

 

>>OPTIONAL SIDE QUEST*: Thalmor Justicars will start hunting you down. You may surrender to them, or fight. If you surrender, you are taken to Northwatch Keep and interrogated. You can either join the Thalmor, or fight your way out and escape. If you choose to escape, you may find the Stormcloak rebel Thorald, free him, and satisfy the quest “Missing in Action.” If you choose to join them, you will be asked to kill Esbern to show your loyalty. You can kill him, gaining the trust of the Thalmor, or convince him to fake his death and go back into hiding. Whether or not you actually kill Esbern, Delphine will disappear and the Blades will disband.

 

The Thalmor want to see the civil war perpetuated to weaken Skyrim, so they will use your influence to prevent any resolution to the conflict, sending you on quests to sabotage the war effort. If you attempt to help either side in the war, the Thalmor will distrust you, eventually kicking you out of their faction and resuming trying to kill you. As you gain their trust, you will also gain access to information on Thalmor hideouts and strategies.

 

ACT III

 

>>If you have not yet completed “Defense of/Battle for Whiterun”, you will have the option to do the “Season Unending” quest. Persuasion skill checks will determine whether or not you can convince the warring factions to lay down arms. Your speech skill must be very high in order to pass the skill checks, though the checks will be less severe if you are the Thane in the hold you trying to cede (ex: If you are the Thane of Riften, it will be easier to convince the Stormcloaks to cede control of the Rift.)

 

If you succeed in establishing a peace accord, the Jarl of Whiterun will agree to help you capture Odahviing. If you fail to make peace, you will have to complete the Civil War questline up to the point of completing “Defense of/Battle for Whiterun” to proceed with the Main Quest.

 

>> Alternately, if you’re working as a Thalmor agent, you will have the option to go before the Jarl of Whiterun, joined by Thalmor agents, and force him to help you. Choosing this option will further prove your loyalty to the Thalmor, but word will spread that you are one of their agents, and the people of Skyrim will fear, hate, or respect you accordingly.

 

>>If you are still loyal to the Blades, Esbern will ask you to kill Paarthurnax. You can comply, earning their continued loyalty but losing the hospitality of the Greybeards. Alternately, you can persuade Esbern (with high speech skill) that Paarthurnax has reformed and that his death is not necessary. Failing this, you can fight both Esbern and Delphine for control of the blades (a tough battle), after which they will submit to your leadership.

 

>> With the aid of the Jarl of Whiterun, you can now capture Odahviing and finish the Main Quest. Depending on the outcome of “Season Unending,” you may also complete the Civil War Quest. If you succeeded in establishing peace between the warring factions, the Civil War Quest is put on hold; if not, you can complete it in its entirety before or after dealing with Alduin. If you are a Thalmor agent however, you will instead receive various sabotage missions to prevent the conflict from being resolved.

 

AFTERMATH

 

>>If you resolved the civil war through a peace accord or through conquest, you will be afforded several outcomes. After Alduin is defeated, the peace accord from "Season Unending" will fall apart, and you will have to resume the Civil War. You can choose to fight for one side or the other to the conclusion of the war. Alternately, you can work to promote peace, unifying the factions of Skyrim against their common enemies with hopes for a lasting treaty... or sew seeds of discontent on behalf of the Aldmeri Dominion!

 

If you chose to let Paarthurnax live, after Alduin is defeated Paarthurnax will assume leadership of the dragons and teach them The Way of the Voice. Though not all dragons will accept this philosophy, many will regard you as a true Dovah. Paarthurnax and those dragons loyal to him will aid you in the coming battles. However, If Paarthurnax is killed, most of the dragons, now leaderless, will flee Tamriel. Those that remain will continue to hunt the Dragonborn until a new dragon rises to lead them against the mortals of Tamriel...

 

>>If you chose to become a Thalmor agent, the outcome can vary depending on which race you play as well as the choices you make. Whether you participated in or sabotaged the civil war, spared or killed Esbern, made peace or threatened the Jarl... your choices will factor in. Ultimately, if you are a race that is hostile to the Thalmor (Nord, Imperial, Redguard, Argonian?, or Orc?), they will decide that you are no longer useful, and turn on you.

 

If you are a race favorable to the Thalmor (Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, Khajiit?, or Breton?) and you have shown your loyalty, they will offer to make you a justicar. If you accept, you will be considered fully loyal to the Thalmor cause. The Civil War Quest will end, and the Thalmor will hint at their desire to use you as a weapon to further destabilize the Empire. Alternately, you may choose to reject their offer, resulting in them turning on you.

 

If you survive their betrayal (a challenging one-against-many ambush), you will gain access to more Thalmor secrets, as well as being free to continue the Civil War Quest. However, Thalmor agents lead by justicars will resume randomly attacking you.

 

Eventually, Delphine and a small party of Blades will track you down and attempt to avenge Esbern. If you are loyal to the Thalmor, and Esbern is truly dead, you will have to kill Delphine and the Blades. If you spared Esbern, or rejected the Thalmor, you can convince Delphine (with a high enough speech skill) to join Esbern in hiding, or present the Thalmor secrets as proof of your intent to double-cross them, thus rejoining the Blades. If you were betrayed by the Thalmor despite choosing to kill Esbern, you will have to persuade Delphine (with a very high speech skill) to go into hiding, otherwise you will be forced to kill her and the Blades in self-defense.

 

If you rejoin the Blades, Esbern, Delphine, your recruits, and Delphine's recruits will all return to Sky Haven Temple, and Esbern will offer a new questline** involving a campaign against the Thalmor. The Thalmor secrets you obtained as their agent will play an important role here. Conversely, if all the Blades are killed, you will not have access to this quest. You can visit the locations and people indicated in your dossier of Thalmor secrets, enacting your own brand of justice, though any actions carried out inside city limits will register as crimes. Or you can just sell the dossier to Legion or Stormcloaks officials for a sizable reward.

 

If you remained loyal to the Blades throughout, you will never gain access the Thalmor's secrets. The quest will still be initiated, though the lack of intel will be a detriment to your campaign.

 

ON THE THALMOR QUESTS...

 

*The optional Thalmor questline may come into conflict with future DLC or related lore, so it should be modular if implemented. As such, the details of the questline may change, specifically as they relate to which races have which outcome. I feel pretty strongly that the Thalmor would treat any non-Elven race with enmity if not outright hostility, especially the Nords, Redguards, and Imperials. I am not sure of the standing that the Khajiit (as a Dominion client race), Argonians (as anti-Imperial), Bretons (because of elven heritage) and Orcs (being technically elven) have with the Thalmor, so I’m open to suggestions on this issue.

 

**The campaign against the Thalmor would involve a number of espionage-oriented quests, as well as a few open skirmishes. As I want to remain as lore-friendly as possible, this campaign would not kill major characters (such as Elenwen), nor would it end with the Thalmor being totally driven from Skyrim. It would simply give the feeling that someone - anyone - is actually fighting them. It could involve defending or rescuing Talos worshipers or Altmer dissidents, cutting off supply lines, assassinating Thalmor agents, etc. - some tactical or stealthy missions that involve more than “go here and kill this person” quests, and opportunities to use non-combative means to fight the Thalmor. For those that DO love combat, it would also serve to expand the Civil War Quest. Whether you sided with the Legion or the Stormcloaks, you could help the winning faction fight the Thalmor in open warfare, possible even aided by Paarthurnax and the dragons, while you simultaneously directing efforts of espionage. It would allow you to reform the Blades in their 3rd Era image, a cunning and deadly undercover force working to preserve the spirit of the Empire, not just a band of genocidal marauders hell bent on killing dragons.

 

- - - - -

 

Sorry this was so long!!! I hope it was an interesting and enjoyable read for some of you, and I thank you in advanced if you had the patience to read it all :D

 

I truly hope someone out there likes this idea and wants to give it a go. I am open to any ideas, criticisms or suggestions. Thanks again!

Edited April 1, 2012 by behughes

[behughes]

After giving it some thought, I've decided to try to break this idea down into smaller, more manageable chunks. I'm going to try to tackle the first task myself, delaying the start of the quest "Bleak Falls Barrow" As I see it this will require the following:

 

-Edit the conditions for starting of "Bleak Falls Barrow" so that it does not initiate immediately after completing "Before the Storm."

-Add a quest stage that requires two weeks time to pass (enough time for the Jarl to do a bit of dragon research) before advancing to the next stage.

-Add a quest stage that dispatches a courier to deliver the item "Letter from Jarl Balgruff" to the player. Opening the letter advances the quest and adds the journal entry.

-Edit journal entries to reflect changes. Something like "I've received a letter from the Jarl of Whiterun. He has a task of great importance suitable to my particular talents, and urges me to return to Dragonsreach with haste."

-Remove the following dialogue from Jarl Balgruuf: "There is another thing you could do for me, suitable for someone of your particular talents."

[shotgun188]

The whole Thalmor thing seems too complicated. I think that should be an addon made after the rest of the stuff.

[behughes]

The whole Thalmor thing seems too complicated. I think that should be an addon made after the rest of the stuff.

 

Yeah, the Thalmor side quest is going to be a modular thing, if I can even do it. Since it would be about as much work as creating a whole new guild with quests, and will likely not be lore-friendly, I'm probably going to ditch that idea altogether.

 

For the most part, I just wanted focus on three things:

 

-insert a few beats in the story, particularly at the beginning, so players feel like they have the opportunity to do random quests, join a guild, or fight in the war without feeling like they have to ignore the Main Quest.

-add Speech related challenges to "Season Unending"

-add more diverse outcomes to the main quest and civil war

 

Wouldn't mind restoring the Blades back to their 3rd Era glory, but again, that's a lot of work.

Edited April 1, 2012 by behughes

[shotgun188]

If Oblivion is anything to go by, they were never much good :)

[behughes]

If Oblivion is anything to go by, they were never much good :)

 

Yeah, I never much liked the idea of them being like a guild of samurai warrior-monks living in a temple, but I guess that was their "public persona". In Morrowind, you get the impression that they serve the Emperor, but pretty much act on their own in independent, task-oriented cells, blending into the background of society. Hell, Caius Cosades was a shirtless skooma addict living in a one-room hovel, and he was the Grand Spymaster in 3rd Era Vvardenfell.

 

I almost get the impression that Esbern and Delphine are kinda like fundamentalist Blades, trying to restore the order to their pre-Tiber Septim dragon slayer roots. It would be cool if there were quest to turn them away from this, and restore them to their role as a network of spies and intelligence agents.

[Eegxeta]

I agree with everything you said about the pacing everything happens way too fast. It plays out more like a badly written disaster B-movie that starts with it was a dark and stormy night said by a narrator doing a lousy Leonerd Nemoy imitation. I also have been wondering why the dragons are so pathetic aren't they supposed to be able to battle armies and win where-as here they can be defeated by a level 1 wanna-be or don't wanna-be adventurer. I say don't wanna-be because the game starts off with you in a cart after being caught trying to get out of Skyrim.

 

 

I'll make a better post tomorrow it is late and I'm really tired.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Eegxeta

[shotgun188]

Also, after the main quest, it'd be cool if the moot actually happened.

[behughes]

I agree with everything you said about the pacing everything happens way too fast. It plays out more like a badly written disaster B-movie that starts with it was a dark and stormy night said by a narrator doing a lousy Leonerd Nemoy imitation. I also have been wondering why the dragons are so pathetic aren't they supposed to be able to battle armies and win where-as here they can be defeated by a level 1 wanna-be or don't wanna-be adventurer. I say don't wanna-be because the game starts off with you in a cart after being caught trying to get out of Skyrim.

 

 

I'll make a better post tomorrow it is late and I'm really tired.

 

Exactly. I mean, if the Jarl said to me, "Hey stranger, I don't know you at all, but I need someone to delve into an ancient tomb filled with living-dead horrors, to retrieve an artifact we think might be lying around there somewhere..." I might reluctantly accept. If he then said, "Hey you, you survived the attack on Helgen, so you have more experience running from dragons like a pussy than anyone else in my hold, except that guy maybe... <points to guard> I have an idea! Why don't you go fight one for me?" I'd probably hesitate a bit. If I managed to survive being set on fire by the giant, flying monstrosity long enough for the Jarl's archers to fell the damned thing, only to find out that I have the innate power to steal souls from dead dragons, and the Jarl said to me "Oh yeah, you're Dragonborn alright. Haven't your read the legends? Report to the top of the tallest mountain in the world for training immediately! I'd be saying "No. NO!!! I've had it! I just met you, and you seem like a cool guy and all, but with all due respect, I... GAAAAAH F*K GO TO HELL!!! <kills everyone in Whiterun>

 

I digress... there are tons of things in the main story that could be slightly changed and make the narrative massively better, all of which could be done with modding. However, I think, specifically, adding a beat in the story before starting "Bleak Falls Barrow" is CRITICAL.

 

Morrowind did this in its main quest: At the start, they release you from prison and let you sandbox a bit in a small "tutorial" village, with not-so-urgent orders from the Emperor to visit some guy in another city and get the main quest rolling. After doing a few simple missions designed mainly to introduce you to the guilds, what does he order you to do? Take some time off, join guilds, and do some freelancing. This subtle device is not only brilliant on a storytelling level, it is also a great game design element. Give you a taste of the story, and then back off so you can decompress, break away if you're not interested, or dive right in if you are.

 

Morrowind was so immersive, because the plot was interesting, not nagging. The quest was important, but it wasn't a break-neck race to the finish, but rather a series of controlled bursts of action intersperse with moments of repose. I didn't feel bad taking time off from the main mission to do side quests. In fact, its written right into the story that your character should be trying to maintain the cover of a freelance adventurer, because you're working with the Blades on a rather sensitive mission.

 

Come to think of it, Skyrim's Dovahkiin isn't all that different from Morrowind's Nerevarine (with the notable exception that the Nerevarine is arguably only posing as a hero of prophecy). Morrowind keeps you in the dark for a little while about what's really going on. At first, you're just gathering research material about a vague prophecy and a cult that gives people weird dreams. Pretty soon, you figure out that you're gonna have to go through the motions of the prophecy, to fulfill them, and at the end you're left wondering if it was all just another cunning Blades mission or devine providence. Either way, you set in motion the fall of the Tribunal gods and destruction of Vvardenfell ("When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles").

 

Skyrim's Dovahkiin starts out pretty much the same way, just a regular person with piss-poor luck, who gets a chance to start over, to find his way in a world where everything seems to be dictated by the maddening prophecies, devious gods, and scrolls that predate time and space itself... But if Skyrim were made into a 400 page novel, the Dovahkiin would learn that he's an indisputable dragon-killing soul-eating god being by the 15th page. The story expects you to accept this revelation without a hint of pause, but in truth its impossible to feel as though any of it is earned, or meaningful. Bethesda teases us with potential, but hasn't delivered since Morrowind.

 

- - - - -

 

TL;DR version:

 

I need help making a mod that delays the quest "Bleak Falls Barrow" and initiates it later via a letter from a courier... because Morrowind was awesome.

Edited April 2, 2012 by behughes

[shotgun188]

Bump because this is great. I agree with everything on the above post. I also think that you should meet Esbern later because it's him that tells you that the world will end unless you defeat Alduin quickly.