Having trouble with a custom navmesh

[trashgarbage666]

That is a nice vision ... of redoing all the navmesh ... but a very big project. You want some help ?

 

Should be done in pieces that can be merged ... that way many people can be navmeshing at the same time :turned:

 

That's so nice of you! This is a big enough undertaking that some extra help would really go a long way. The only problem is that I think I can be ...kiiind of an unbearable perfectionist sometimes, and I'm a little worried I might turn into an annoying backseat driver. But I am in dire need of some outside playtesting, if you're up for that! You'd get to play around with the headshot script, and I could get an outside perspective on some of the ideas I'm going to be implementing in the future! Plus, I'd get to see if my current problem with the NPCs will carry over to other computers. I'm certain they will, but I'm still curious. (Not that it really matters, since I'm going to be restarting the navmesh anyway.)

 

This offer extends to everyone else in the thread, too! I'll be uploading what I currently have so you guys can download it and poke around. That is, if you want to. I was already planning on crediting all of you anyway. Without these forums, I would have long since hit a wall and been forced to give up on my mod.

 

When I do upload it, it will be under the name "jwills". It's a play on the jsawyer mod, but with my name instead -- which is Josie, by the way! :D

 

Does the mod require any meshes or textures? If it's simple enough to do, you can just upload it here and I'll have a look. I'm just extremely sceptical that this could be corrupted data. The chances of a file you were not writing to becoming corrupt because of a crash are astronomically low. Unless you're saying this was an automated back-up and it was therefore being written to as your then-current file was being saved. But that would defeat one of the chief purposes of a back-up, so I'm doubting that. Also, if it were corrupt data, the FNVedit back-ups wouldn't necessarily be the same.

 

Nope! No outside files required, just the .esp (or .esm) itself! Years from now, when my great, great grandchild finishes the mod, I want it to be plug-and-play. I've always disliked when a mod requires additional fussing to get it to work. And you're probably right that the issue isn't due to corruption.

 

What I meant about not editing masters is that if I remember this correctly, once you've converted a plug-in file to a master file, you should never touch it again. There are ways to do this, but I forget what they are. If you follow certain rules, I think you can get away with a few types of change, but it's safest not to modify a master file once it's a master file. But yes, the GECK won't overwrite them (which is frankly hilarious and disproves God).

 

Luckily, this is what I was doing from the start! In order to playtest any change I made, I would make a copy of the .esp, convert it, and play that instead, then delete it when I was done with it. The .esp I was using in GECK to make the edits was treated as sacred, and never converted.

 

I would try starting a new game and ending Back in the Saddle early, without ever loading a game. Just start up New Vegas, start a new game, get to Sunny, and end her quest somewhere where in your recent tests she didn't go back to her spot when she should have done.

 

Renaming your mod to something completely different could help get rid of some vestigial data from a previous version if there was some corrupt data somewhere.

 

Just tried both, and it didn't change anything.

 

Are JIP and NVSE totally up to date?

 

Do you launch through FOMM? Could maybe try launching through Steam or NVSE. I launch through Steam, personally. You could try a different mod manager as well. I think MO is complex to set up, so I'd go with NMM if you tried that.

 

Yep! I ran my tests with fresh installs of both!

 

I have the Steam version as well, but I run the game through FOMM to put my mod at the end of the load order. Not that I think load order matters at this stage, but it might as the mod starts approaching completion. I've never used NMM before. Just from guessing, I don't think using it over FOMM would make a difference, but you might know something I don't. Should I give it a try?

 

One other thing. If you have something like an NPC or a package or pretty much anything in an esm and something modifies NPC/package/whatever in another esp or another esm, do not ever change the NPC/[package/whatever in the original esm afterwards. That can really bork your mod. You'll also save yourself a lot of headaches if you don't modify things in another esp/esm. In other words, if you have an NPC defined in an esm, then you place the NPC in the game in an esp, do not modify the original NPC definition in the esp. You can modify your reference in the esp all you want. Just don't modify the original NPC definition. And if you do modify the NPC in the esp, do not go back into the esm and modify it there too as those changes will get lost. With an NPC it's not so bad, but if you are editing terrain, you can end up with landscape tears and all kinds of texture or world problems. Basically, once something in another mod references something from an esm, consider that thing in the esm as locked and don't touch it, because if you touch it you'll break stuff.

 

Also, once you change your esp to a master file, make sure you change the file extension to esm to match.

 

Thank you for this. I'll probably be returning to read this a handful of times. Suddenly, the prospect of working with multiple files feels like it might be a lot more complicated than I had originally assumed. I'll have to be doubly sure that my navmesh mod doesn't touch anything else.

[EPDGaffney]

Well, I doubt anyone here would disagree with me when I say we're all glad to have helped you.

 

My own mod is probably a bit too time-consuming for me to do much real work on yours anyway, but if ever you need something specific from me here and there, don't hesitate to ask.

 

Your load order isn't determined by how you launch the game, necessarily. I've never used FOMM but it's by all accounts better for this. I don't know how it launches, though. I know that with NMM, I use it to choose my load order, and then I launch via Steam. However, I could launch through NVSE, NMM, or the game's executable the Fallout New Vegas folder if I so chose (or the old 4GB launcher, but why would I do that?). What I'm attempting to rule out is something FOMM is doing, if it's doing anything that could mess with your file. I don't really know how FOMM handles things, so it's just an idea, because I know that Mod Organiser can cause massive problems if you don't understand it. Sort of the trade-off for the convenience, it seems.

 

Luckily, this is what I was doing from the start! In order to playtest any change I made, I would make a copy of the .esp, convert it, and play that instead, then delete it when I was done with it. The .esp I was using in GECK to make the edits was treated as sacred, and never converted.

This is good. This is very good. Although, you now have a bit more information on editing a master file if you want, thanks to mongo.

 

What you should try, besides letting us have a look at the file, is copying the navmesh with FNVedit, over to a new file with nothing else in it, and see what it does.

 

Good luck.

[dubiousintent]

I used madmongo's latest info to expand the "TIP: When can you use an ESM only mod?" entry.

 

-Dubious-

[trashgarbage666]

So, I hit another snag. Kind of a weird one!

 

I've restarted the navmesh, and I'm liking this new one a whole lot better. I'm taking my time with it, and getting in as much detail as possible. It's been really great. What's not great, however, is how when I do the fight in the Run Goodsprings Run quest, instead of spawning in front of the bar like they're supposed to, Trudy and Sunny spawn somewhere near Hidden Valley. It's pretty discouraging, but also ...pretty hilarious??

 

https://i.imgur.com/PclxFha.jpg

 

Once I get close enough to them and the game loads them in, they start running towards the marker that they were supposed to spawn on top of. I'm not sure what spawns them in from of them bar in the first place, otherwise I'd open that up and take a look. Taking this glitch, and the one from my previous navmesh into consideration, I'm starting to get the feeling that this kind of thing is going to keep happening. But it's a problem I'm willing to contend with, so long as I can find a way to solve it! I'd imagine that the Run Goodsprings Run quest itself is what's spawning them in, and that pointing the spawn back in the right direction should set things straight! Problem is, I'm not really sure where that is or how to do it right now. I have a hunch that solving this might be the key to solving any other instance of the glitch that rears its head. At least, that's what I'm hoping. Fingers crossed.

Edited March 21, 2018 by punchbattle

[EPDGaffney]

Did a little digging and first, the quest is called VMS16b. Second, it seems to run EVP rather than placing the characters anywhere, so I'm going to check their AI packages now.

 

https://prnt.sc/iu4nzv

 

So, in that quest, they get added to that Goodsprings Militia Faction and as long as the Powder Gangers are attacking (governed by a variable in that quest), the Militia have a package that makes them travel to that marker, which isn't the real goal but rather to have them see the Powder Gangers and fight them. Try opening that package and reselecting the marker, unless you think it's something else you've touched.

 

Also, I'm responding to your message, but I had to download OBS and learn how to use it, as your response to one thing I said made me think you'd like to see this in action, so get ready.

Edited March 21, 2018 by EPDGaffney

[Mktavish]

Is it possible that the chronology of your previous play through's just had those npc's at a different location when that quest activated ? Maybe they were just inside the bar before and would just appear to spawn there , but were really traveling through the door ?

 

For your navmesh .esp , I would just load up the FalloutNV.esm only ... and definitely only do navmesh in it.

 

Then when you want to test stuff just put it in your load order , with other files of yours (that do not rely on it ) and any of the other files you want to test with. But I would keep mod add in's to a minimum for testing.

[EPDGaffney]

That's correct, Mktavish, as it's a travel package I found. Unless of course I missed something. I believe OP is testing with an .esm that contains only the navmesh, as per our earlier discussions. If not, then yes, I second your opinion that that should be done.

[trashgarbage666]

Did a little digging and first, the quest is called VMS16b. Second, it seems to run EVP rather than placing the characters anywhere, so I'm going to check their AI packages now.

 

https://prnt.sc/iu4nzv

 

So, in that quest, they get added to that Goodsprings Militia Faction and as long as the Powder Gangers are attacking (governed by a variable in that quest), the Militia have a package that makes them travel to that marker, which isn't the real goal but rather to have them see the Powder Gangers and fight them. Try opening that package and reselecting the marker, unless you think it's something else you've touched.

 

Sadly, I've already tried reselecting the marker. It didn't have an effect. Maybe deleting the marker and putting a new one in its place might see some results. Haven't tried that one yet.

 

Also, a strange thing I noticed that may or may not be related: After completing most of Goodsprings' outdoor navmesh, there were asterixes next to all Goodsprings interiors except Trudy's saloon, which is where Trudy and Sunny should be when the quest tells them to head to that marker. I opened the mod in FNVEdit to see what the interior changes were. Turns out the exit doors updated to reflect where on the new navmesh it spits you out when you leave. And since there wasn't an asterix next to the interior of the saloon, I figured navmeshing the bar might solve the problem -- it didn't :\

 

Maybe it was something I touched. Thankfully, this new mod only contains the new navmesh, and a few nudges I made to door exit markers (not the saloon door, though) so they line up better with the door. That whittles down the number of possible problematic changes pretty nicely.

 

Is it possible that the chronology of your previous play through's just had those npc's at a different location when that quest activated ? Maybe they were just inside the bar before and would just appear to spawn there , but were really traveling through the door ?

 

For your navmesh .esp , I would just load up the FalloutNV.esm only ... and definitely only do navmesh in it.

 

Then when you want to test stuff just put it in your load order , with other files of yours (that do not rely on it ) and any of the other files you want to test with. But I would keep mod add in's to a minimum for testing.

 

Each time I test a new change, I start from scratch. I never load an old file. I included the big DLCs as masters, because I want to eventually navmesh those areas too. Left out Gun Runner's Arsenal, and the item pack DLCs, though.

 

That's correct, Mktavish, as it's a travel package I found. Unless of course I missed something. I believe OP is testing with an .esm that contains only the navmesh, as per our earlier discussions. If not, then yes, I second your opinion that that should be done.

 

I know FNVEdit lets you remove masters from mods, but I don't know how reliable it is. And the idea of starting over a second time really just kills it for me. I dunno. If I upload the mod sometime tomorrow, would you guys be willing to have a look at it?

 

I'm sorry this issue has been dragging on as long as it has.

[dubiousintent]

Re: "I know FNVEdit lets you remove masters from mods, but I don't know how reliable it is."

 

To the best of my knowledge, it is the only reliable way to remove masters. But it is not an "automatic" process. (Just got done doing this to someone else's compatibility patch that included a master I don't use.)

 

You have to load your plugin and all it's "master files" into FNVEdit, and then find everywhere there are records in the plugin using records from the master file you want to remove. These are not only found in those color tagged as "conflicting" (red background), though those are the place to start. They can also exist in any record, even "new ones" (white background).

 

Once you think you have removed all the references to records from the master to be removed, you use the "Clean Masters" function and check for the presence of the master in the plugin's file header. IF all references are gone , then it will have been removed. If it remains, you still have some references to locate. (Save what you have done, reload, and work through it again.) You can end up having to work through every single record in the plugin. But it will eventually work.

 

-Dubious-

[EPDGaffney]

I think uploading it would be for the best, because this is starting to sound very odd, unless you've made some mistakes that I kind of expect you would either not have made or at least known that you'd made them or to check for them. My fear is that that navmesh is now perhaps too detailed for the engine or that this game simply can't handle this number of modifications to a navmesh. Whatever the case, I would be interested in looking at it myself for sure.