Things Skyrim sort of forgot.....

[Modslave]

You know throughout the TES games the flexibility of how you wanted to play has always been pretty central to the appeal of the game.

 

One of the major things Skyrim appears to have missed on completely is that in the removal of the class system in favor of simply the skills system...which was a good idea at its core, its also marginalized and minimized different class styles down to some very simple things.

 

Magic in Skyrim has put the onus pretty much on pure casting to be a magic user. This has really taken some of the fun out of being a Resto-Spec plate wearing cleric...cause...well, its not really that effective cause you have to equip a spell every time you want to heal then you have to go back and find your shield...its annoying, also the limitation of hand casting is somewhat frustrating because why, exactly, do my hands have to be "empty" to use magic? The fact that no mods that have come along to address a more flexible free casting model that allows you to cast a spell from your weapon hand without un-equipping the weapon, but restricts the power of dual casting to pure mages entirely, seems odd to me. Given the fact that it hasn't already been done its likely due to some serious constraints in of which spells are actually equipped weapons, which would then require altering equip points in the list so not to affect weapons.....eh something to think about but the main issue is....hey theres no real way to really mix up magic and combat classes like Spellswords or Clerics and do it effectively any more, its really more menu fiddling than its worth.

 

Also theres the complete downgrade of the Ranger style class in Skyrim. Sure you're good at Bows, for as much good as that does you because everything you shoot, if it survives your initial shot, is going to run straight at you or straight away from you anyways, so much for being able to slow down targets by shooting them in the legs. So the ranger style of class has literally been slid into a support/secondary aspect class of the Warrior class. Because if you're using a bow, it stands to reason that you're going to need a sword pretty damn soon after, so....the Ranger has actually been downgraded to simply a warrior who can shoot a bow, and not a Ranger who wields a bow with the deadliness of any warrior on the field. Or, the "Ranger" through combination of Bow+Light Armor+Sneak, gets shifted towards an assassin style of play, rather than that place in the middle where the Ranger is supposed to be, not an assassin, not a warrior...but a Ranger.

 

Also then if you look at warriors all by themselves you have a choice. Are you a heavy armor or light armor warrior? Do you use two handed, one handed or dual wield weapons...but, hey, we forgot to tell you that without a shield you can pretty much expect to get burnt to a crisp by dragons and you're not a jedi so your two handed sword can't knock arrows out of the air while they're in flight and oh....btw if you're dual wielding, don't expect to block at all even though you've got two weapons and you can block just fine with one...oh wait sorry its because we ran out of console controller buttons to add a DW Block so DW could use the normal block key, our bad.

 

Just seems to me like the more I play Skyrim, the more I feel like I'm getting pigeon holed into pure foundational class play regardless of what I want to do. Kill people loudly with swords, or kill them quietly with swords...or fry peoples faces with magic...and yeah thats pretty much the entire choice base boiled down to the simplest elements.

 

Seems like as mods go what Skyrim is really needing is something that adapts Skyrims combat mechanics to engage people into attempting to do things differently.

 

In the end, if I want to play as a healer, why do I have to be a poncy fabric wearing mage? Lydia's quite a good warrior, she can definitely use a good healer, why can't I be the atypical mace and shield, plate wearing cleric? Oh yeah its cause I can't cast spells while using either...which is retarded.

[blaze1093]

Not trying to defend Bethesda's oversight on so many things, but this is the exact reason I believe they allow open source code for modders. They actively help modders by releasing the CK. You're describing a lot of 'how the game pans out' issues. Legitimate, but you can't get that from testing. You can only get that by trying to play the game as a pure archer for 30 hours.

 

Thank all of creation for the Nexus Mod community. I have 198 active mods making the game play in the way I believe it was meant to be played. None of that star wars, overpowered items, or nude crap.

[ElricOfGrans]

For the sake of argument, the classical Ranger archetype was more Warrior than Rogue (Warrior with a hint of Rogue-skills) and the Cleric archeype was more caster than Warrior (a caster who could wear armour and access slightly more weapons). Essentially, the classic Ranger is a Warrior who can scout and a Cleric is a caster who is not a glass canon; the Ranger never was `half-and-half' Warrior and Rogue, nor was the Cleric as effective in melee as a Warrior (sans cheep spells making them over-powered, eg D&D Clerics in several editions). My understanding is that those are VERY recent interpretations on those archetypes, probably from MMOs or something (never played one, so I cannot comment). That out of the way, I do somewhat agree with you. I do feel as though I have a lot less variety in my play than I did in Morrowind and Oblivion. I see that as largely being combinations of factors, however, rather than the removal of class limitations. If they had classes, but the rest of the game systems where the same, there would be no difference in how Skyrim played.

 

198 mods already? Damn! I have something close to 100 and I thought I was doing well :P

[fraquar]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a Ranger style is little more than a support role in Skyrim.

 

There are a ton of things you can synergize to be a stalking killer in the game. Some of them may take a little time to develop so you may have to start with a more rounded character early - but come early mid-game there is no reason you shouldn't be a top flight Ranger. See target, stalk target, eliminate target - move to next target.

 

Once you've developed the synergies, if a target escapes you or closes on you it should be a rare occurence, because if it's more common than that you simply aren't playing them correctly. All this in vanilla Skyrim, unmodded - mods make it even easier.

[BlackCompany]

Not trying to defend Bethesda's oversight on so many things, but this is the exact reason I believe they allow open source code for modders. They actively help modders by releasing the CK. You're describing a lot of 'how the game pans out' issues. Legitimate, but you can't get that from testing. You can only get that by trying to play the game as a pure archer for 30 hours.

 

Thank all of creation for the Nexus Mod community. I have 198 active mods making the game play in the way I believe it was meant to be played. None of that star wars, overpowered items, or nude crap.

 

I would love to see that load order. And I do not mean that sarcastically, or as an veiled accusation of any sort about your claims of "no nude mods." Rather, I say that because I am interested in seeing 198 mods that tweak and improve Skyrim. That's the kind of load order I have been dying for a glimpse of since the game released. Please feel free to post it, or message me, I am beyond curious about that.

 

Thanks.

[RedRavyn]

Funny you should rant about Rangers in particular, pr0. That's long been my favorite character class in games ranging all the way back to the very first incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons. Everyone seems to have their own ideas of what, exactly, a "ranger" is, though. Here's the way I look at it. A "ranger" is a person who is good at wilderness survival and is proficient with a bow (try hunting deer with a greatsword, sometime). Those, I think, are the two defining characteristcs of the class, but they imply other things. You're going to really suck as a hunter (something which is part of "wilderness survival") if you're stumbling around in the brush and wearing a set of full plate armor. Rangers have to be stealthy. Rangers will wear, at most, very light armor.

 

For all practical purposes, a hunter is an assassin of animals. He needs to bring the same skills, minus melee skills, to bear that a typical assassin does. So ... saying that a "ranger" in Skyrim is nothing more than an assassin who wields a bow is actually pretty much spot-on! Congratulations for making such an astute observation. Or, you could say an Assassin is a Ranger who specializes in human prey. Either way, it's light armor + bow + stealth. The only real difference is your choice of prey and the company you keep.

 

I don't feel at all that I'm being pigeon-holed by the lack of character class in Skyrim. Compared to Oblivon (I've never played Morrowind), I feel truly emancipated. My last three playthroughs (I generally play an archer/battle-mage/stealth-type) have involved me relying so heavily upon the bow that my melee skills suffered badly. And I'm not missing them. I don't feel like a warrior who just happens to use a bow. I feel like an archer. Get too close to me and I'll fry your face with my array of novice-level spells, but you're probably going to be way down on Health before you ever get within weapon's reach of me.

 

In most of my playthroughs I've put as much stress on stealth and archery as I have on magic. I've been able to go toe-to-toe (with a little sneaky stuff added in) with NPCs who are "pure" casters, and I've played around with doing it as a mage and not as an archer. In the last playthrough, for instance, I left my standard gear at home, and donned my novice robes and hood and did "Under Saarthal" without ever pulling out a single weapon (because I didn't have any, save for an ordinary steel dagger). Play smart and you don't have to have all the most powerful spells at your disposal.

 

I think a lot of people who think "mage" in this game are enamored of human cannons and gattling guns. Many of the mods for Oblivion and Skyrim seem to be angled toward this, as well. You don't have to go that route to enjoy playing a mage-type character. Nor do you have to dilute a pure mage build with a lot of other unnecessary stuff to be survivable.

 

Skyrim, unlike Oblivon, gives you choices that let you fine-tune a character by playing what you want to be, rather than having some undefined "overmind" (the game system) predefining what you are. You start out as a blank slate and, like a real person, you become what you do, whatever that happens to be. This is one of the things that actually makes Skyrim better than Oblivion.

 

You do make what I consider a few valid points, though. One of the most annoying things in Skyrim is the pathetic way in which the "favorites" system is implemented. This is a really awful attempt to give us "hot-keys", seeing that most of the other keys have been pre-defined. At least in Oblivion it was possible to install hot-key mods that gave that game at least some sense of familiarity with respect to other games that we play.

 

I frequently find myself back-pedaling with a destruction spell in my right hand and a healing spell in my left hand, casting both at the same time, sometimes. If my enemy doesn't go down, then I have to switch to melee mode at some point, and what happens when I hit the hotkey assigned to my sword? I have a sword in my right hand and my healing spell is still in my left hand. I want my SHIELD in my left hand, but in a fit of total cluelessness, Bethesda forgot to let us assign groups of items and spells to a hotkey. Modders fixed this problem in Oblivion. I had a mod installed that gave me more hot-keys than I actually needed. They could be programmed to autocast spells, equip sets of gear, or even cycle between items. I can only hold one bow, after all, even though I might have two of them for different purposes. Unfortunately, nothing even close to this mod has emerged for Skyrim, and I understand that Bethesda has made it very difficult in this game to create effective hot-key mods.

 

blaze1093, I seriously doubt that Bethesda supplied us with a (broken) CK, out of the goodness of their hearts. They probably did it for some combination of the following reasons:

 

1. Placate PC users who they knew would be dissatisfied with their pathetic attempts to port a console game to the PC.

 

2. Fix their problems for them, since they were too rushed and/or lazy to make sure that their game was reasonably bug-free before they released it to an unaware and brain-washed public.

[wokking56]

A little more on this topic, I find it frustrating that my mage can can ignite puddles of oil to burn other NPC's. Yet for some strange unknown reason I can't freeze enemies feet into a puddle of water or possibly electrocute them in same puddle. I have seen the electrocution thing done in other games, would it truly have been that difficult to do it here in Skyrim.

[Perraine]

Has no-one ever heard of Alchemy? ... With my Ranger/Thief, I never go ANYWHERE without a backpack full of my favourite Paralysis + Lingering Damage Health Potion (Imp Stool, Slaughterfish Egg + Canis Root or Human Flesh) even if it takes 6 arrows to kill your target and there are 5 targets, you can easily just stay at a distance and shoot them one at a time, one after the other ... Where is the problem?

 

And as for Mages if you put enough points into Magicka you can Dual Cast Incinerate, and even an Elder Dragon on Max Difficulty (with my lvl 61 Mage and fast Magicka Regen. + low % spell cost) dies in about 7 shots, and with the Stumble Perk (forget exactly what it's called, but every Dual Cast hit makes the enemy/NPC's stumble backwards) They can't even retaliate Or Icy Spear which not only has the Stumble (Stagger maybe?) Perk but also has the chance to slow them down as well ... Again where is the problem?

 

OK so you can't swing a sword and kill in one shot, and you ARE vulnerable in Melee combat, but neither of those 2 classes (Ranger/Thief/Mage) are supposed to Melee fighters anyway.

 

I just don't get why people keep bringing this up over, and over, and over, and over, and over ... and over, and ov ___ ... again. The game, I think was built around a Nord Warrior being a dragon slayer, but you CAN play as a different character type/class, it just takes a little more effort, which, IMHO, is exactly how it SHOULD be ...

[Cataxu]

I don't think Skyrim forgot anything. I think it provides a deep character development system based on your chosen difficulty setting that forces you to think outside of the box, or sometimes just pick up a sword and start hacking away at things if your chosen "class" isn't up to par yet, or even turn tail and run. The early game should be rough for squishy characters like Mages and Archers, and rightfully so when you take into account how these classes are played at a high level. If you're still struggling trying to play a Ranger in the midgame/lategame you need to take a look at your build and refine it or reconsider your playstyle.

 

It's either an issue of self-control or impatience with some people. As someone else said, some builds take time to come to fruition and you may need to use other skills until you're "strong" enough to play the specific archetype you're looking for. For instance, even with the mod "Dual Wield Parrying", I cannot rely solely on dual wielding at an early level when fighting NPCs that wield two-handed weapons or archers. I do want to wear light armor so I can benefit from some of the later perks, and you have to be wearing light armour to level it so I have to compromise with my build in the early game.

 

I absolutely need to perform shieldbashes to cancel these NPC classes' attacks or force an archer into melee and you simply cannot do that without a shield or a torch (or using a single weapon), nor is the damage sufficient from dual-wielding to ignore shieldbashing. That's just a consequence of the difficulty I play on and a consequence of choosing to dual wield. There is always another option in these early game situations, disengage and run away. So when you complain about not being able to cast while holding a weapon or "not being able to play as a ranger", I'm at a loss as to what exactly the problem is. Casting spells while holding a weapon in both hands seems a bit absurd, I suppose this would also work for NPCs?

 

Part of the reason a "Warrior" should rush a mage in Skyrim is to try and force them into melee so they're not casting spells. If they can simply cast a spell while attacking you in melee, they've negated spell disruption entirely and have forced you into a lose/lose position as far as I'm concerned. This isn't an old-school turn-based CRPG where you're always holding a weapon in combat and cast spells, there's certain restrictions involved in real-time combat that should most definitely be in place for the sake of balance. Besides, the idea of attacking someone with a mace while simultaneously curing yourself with a healing spell in that same hand sounds and would look absurd.

 

"Clerics" should not be able to cast a spell in the hand they're holding a weapon because it would be straight up broken. I understand it's a single player game and "broken" is relative, but think about fighting NPCs who could do this, who don't suffer from the same magic scaling as the PC. It would be straight-up overkill. You should reconsider your position, or look at the other perk trees such as Alchemy as Perraine suggested and how that could benefit your build.

 

Exotic builds take time and refinement, you can't just decide to play a Cleric or a Ranger at Level 1 and hope it works out or expect the game system to bend to you. Obviously you need some basis in "pure foundational classes" to survive the early game until you can develop and fund the more exotic classes you'd like to play. If anything you ought to be accustomed to having to compromise with your build if you were ever seriously involved in RPGs at all. You're given a lot more freedom to work with your character than other RPGs and the compromises you can make. If anything it seems like you're asking for less choices. Remember "Class Requirement" for weapons and armour, does "Level Requirement" or "Attribute Requirement" ring any bells?

 

Ever heard of PRESTIGE classes and their requirements? It's a shame Skyrim doesn't hinder you in any way when it comes to basic decisions like these. :/

 

Maybe you'd prefer an Oblivion "Choose your Class" system (nothing more than a title mind you) within a system where if you engage a "Paladin" as a "Ranger" a nice little message box will appear warning you of the chance of perverting the sanctity of your precious build should the Paladin enter melee range.

 

Edit: As far as hotkeys and macros go, this isn't an MMORPG. I've got no problem switching gear in my favourites toggle if need be or using the UI. If you're still bitching about the vanilla UI and have not downloaded SkyUI, I feel bad for you. Hotkeying groups of items would most definitely be an improvement though, and hotkeying items to different hands would also be an improvement for dual wielders especially.

 

Regardless, I'm sorry you have to spend a few precious seconds in the favourites menu or the UI itself with the game PAUSED to switch gear. Your complaint might be justified if while paused you were completely defenseless, but that's not the case. I don't think the target audience of this game even thinks about this kind of stuff (switching to enchanted +archery gear to snipe an enemy for instance).

 

You're coming off a WoW binge or another Oblivion playthrough that's been out for years (and likely modded to Hell and back) with a self-entitled attitude that you have no business having. With the SDK right there in your hands to make these changes you seem to think should've been part and parcel of the vanilla game.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Cataxu

[Thoreai]

I dont think thats the problem here in my opinion...this is about the combat being only on a basic level, there is no deep character developement.

Basicaly the combat feels the same, there is nearly no difference if you are lvl 1 or lvl 60 because it feels all the same,you hack&slash or cast spells.

 

The combat would require more depth to it then just this, more balance and interesting class develepoment prior to abilities that makes it interesting and fun to mix, many of the perks are just there fo show and the whole thing feels very shallow, wich buffles me the most since skyrim is so action oriented, one would think they would take more time in creating combat.

The freedom of choosing anything you want at any time in combat is only a trick to hide the weak uncreative class system this game has, by making you think there is so many possibilities.

 

No matter how many mods you put in, the core stayes always the same, shallow and basic and while it is fun to roam arround and kill everything, it can last only for so long untill you dont start to wish for more interaction, more depth..such beautiful, but static world basicaly asks for more then just this.