A Question to my fellow modders from the NWNVault

[thestoryteller01]

I must have spent about 20 hours in the last week to check my NWN2 uploads at the Vault and a lot of time went into re-reading the (rating) comments because I intend to improve some of my stuff while I am at it.

 

I always had been thankful for a vote, even a low one because it proved someone hadn't just hit the DL button but actually worked with my prefabs - or at least tried. And of course I had been happy with a high vote :happy: I think I posted a "thank you" everytime I got a vote. But only now that my first uploads are here on the Nexus I realized, that these days are over.

 

Funny enough I didn't mind the Nexus system when I was donwloading. I like it - I endorse it - I write a comment. But as an uploader I get endorsments - or not. Over here there is no "10" telling me I couldn't probably have made it better. And there is no "7,5" telling me I did a good job. And of course there is no 4.5 making me raise my brows and posting the question why he/she thinks its bad work. :cool:

 

I mean - look at the official system of the Vault:

NWN2 Voting Standards

10 - A Masterpiece, Genuinely Groundbreaking

9 - Outstanding, a Must Have

8 - Excellent, Recommended to Anyone

7 - Very Good, Deserves a Look

6 - Good, Qualified Recommendation

5 - Fair, Solid yet Unremarkable

4 - Some Merit, Requires Improvements

3 - Poor Execution, Potential Unrealized

2 - Very Little Appeal

1 - Not Recommended to Anyone

 

I guess posting the texts from 1-5 gives at least a strike here at the Nexus and posting "I give this a 6 out of 10" will probably be worth a strike either.

 

A fellow modder over at the Vault, who qualifies as a fan of my work nonetheless gave me a 7.5 afair and started a comment with :

First I opened the Giants - unimpressive...

Then the Bugbears - very disappointing

Then the Gnolls - all basically the same - just different names and weapons - I had expected better

We discussed a little via mail and I was convinced that he just hadn''t seen everything yet - and as soon he was in the was in the middle of creating his arena mod, he upgraded his vote to a 10. I think back to that and cannot else but smile. Call me weird but I like a healthy discussion about my work. I am sure though, that this story wouldn't happen over here, because those first lines alone would have brought him allready a strike or worse.

I mean, I can do without some troll posting "Ur goblinz sux" and I'll be glad to get rid of him after the 3rd time. But if someone was posting "I'd download this if your colour scheme wouldn't be SO Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" I'd be glad to explain why I did my Pirates as I did and maybe - only maybe - I'd even think "Omg, now I see it too....Hello Sgt. Pepper" :laugh:

 

Of course I DO know, that the Vault system could be (and had been)abused in several ways and that the Nexus rules & policies will not change for NWN. And of course I will get used to the endorsement system over time.

 

But right now I am very curious what my fellow NWN2 modders think about the change of feedback.

 

NOTE:

This thread is NOT about endorsing or commenting files you download. I am sure there are enough other threads on that topic. This is also not meant to be a suggestion thread for the NWN Nexus.

 

EDIT: I've been asked what this thread is then all about, and that it seems I just want to chat about the "good old days". Well.....mabye I actually want to... :whistling:

Edited April 20, 2012 by thestoryteller01

[Tsongo]

Personally I prefer the system here and whilst I liked to hear that people enjoyed my modules I spent a lot of time wondering about a lot of the ungrateful nitpicking that would go on too with "experts" telling me about how I should do things to suit them.

 

So no I don't miss the vault voting system I think that it created a sense of competition which I hate when this is all about a hobby and sharing what you've done with others. So I'll miss a few comments I'm not bothered, it's a fair trade off as the system here takes away the empowerment of the player over the creator as you can only endorse if you like something not punish when it's not to your taste or "high" standards.

[thestoryteller01]

Since I opened this thread I asked myself another dozen times if I really liked the Vault system that much or if I just adapted to it.

 

The honest answer is probably that I liked it exactly for being more competitive because I am a competetive person. But I have to admit that I allready found a huge advantage for myself with the Nexus system: I can upload also the crazy stuff made primarily for my own amusement without getting plastered with "1s" :biggrin:

 

Btw, the amount of trolling on the NWN2 boards and file sections of the Vault was extremly low compared to any other site I know (which includes the Nexus too - no offense meant) , maybe we could afford the harsh voting system because of that.

Edited April 20, 2012 by thestoryteller01

[seraphimsage]

I'm not sure if I prefer NWN Nexus over the NWN Vault at this juncture.

 

I admit, there certainly seems to be a more active player-base on the NWN Nexus to be sure, as the NWN Vault has been dead on input for many months, at least on my end. This is especially vexing considering I released my last major mod right when the NWN Vault Admin, BeyondThePale stepped down and Maximus took up management, but I digress.

 

There is a great deal to like about the NWN Nexus, visuals are excellent, user interface controls are more intuitive, more options when it comes to uploading content, though my only real concern with it is that it requires people to become members in order to download content, which may turn some more casual players away, as you can download on the vault without logging in.

 

I do enjoy that because the lack of a voting system it allows smaller mods to be recognized, as you mentioned with yours, especially those such as my recent seasonal one based on the play of a single scripted game that would probably have passed on the vault without comment to be enjoyed for the brief time it was semi-relevant in the season. As mentioned, and most important of all, it isn't as stuffed as the NWN Vault has over the years become, there is room to add and be recognized, and you can still generally find what you are looking for without the search tool crashing your computer as the vault has become.

 

Aside from that it's too early to say. The NWN community has been slowly dismantling over the years, which as NWN2 is over five years old, and its last official expansion was around three years back, that is only to be expected. Facebook's Neverwinter Nights might be more relevant, but I still say as a MMO game it lacks the single-player modding perspective that NWN1&2 possess, and for that I probably will not be able to get into it. Reviving this community cannot be done on NWN Vault as it is right now, so I'll place my bets on NWN Nexus presently. I'll continue to release my major mods for both, and I encourage others to do so as well.

Edited April 20, 2012 by seraphimsage

[Tchos]

Well, some things to say for me. I was here to see the change in 2009, when the Nexus here had a 1-10 rating system like the Vault did. I for one was happy to see the voting system change. The reasons why it was done are recorded in this post from that time. Some of the reasons were things that also happen on the Vault, and some bizarre things like a rating of 9 wasn't good enough for some modders, and they demanded the voter justify why they had "knocked off a point" or else they'd ask a mod to remove the vote. I had been disillusioned with the whole idea of vote ratings myself, and the only really valuable thing to me for my mods is feedback in the form of comments. Of course, it also pleases me to see the download numbers increasing, even if they don't say anything.

 

(By the way, Storyteller, I'm using the "White" theme for this forum, and so your yellow and green text is difficult to read unless I change the theme to "Dark" or highlight the text. Just so you know.)

 

I actually think that the commenter you mention would have been safe in using the words "unimpressive" or "disappointing" without earning a strike, since the comment doesn't look like a personal insult against you. The critique is directed only at the mod, and the language is mild and not abusive. But you're right that the Nexus tends to favour the modders over the downloaders when there's a dispute.

 

@Seraphimsage: Regarding downloading, there are two things I consider good news in that regard -- one is that logging in isn't required for files under a certain size (1MB? 2MB? I can't remember.) Of course most modules will be larger than that, but the other good news is what I noted earlier elsewhere, that based on the number of downloads of the Icewind Dale remake, somewhere between 1274-1533 people with an interest in NWN have already made accounts here. I don't know what the average number of downloads a modder can expect to get on the Vault these days, but if it's less than that, then I think the logging in requirement won't be a problem. Perhaps especially since it's an automated and instant process here, with no waiting period.

 

I'm optimistic. And of course I post my work both places, and will continue to do so.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Tchos

[thestoryteller01]

Thanks for linking that thread @Tchos, that was quite an interesting read.

 

Which brought me to the conclusion that the communitiy from the Nexus and the Vault seemed to differ a lot (then).

 

Our rating system worked as it should (apart from some PW teams constantly voting their own PW up and the others down and of course multi-accounting):

I cant remember where I've seen a mod recieving a "1", I've rarely seen a 2 or 3, and giving a 10 alleady outed the voter as a fan somehow. I know that I always took the constant 10s from certain voters with a grain of salt when I thought about downloading something and when I take a look at the "Hall of Fame" entries, then even those are ranked around 9.00 which means they have gotten 10s as well as 8s and 9s.

 

No offense meant but either us modders at the Vault didn't care much or we just weren't as sensitive as our fellows at the Nexus. I was happy about every 7.5 I got, and I have gotten "glad you liked it" remarks for handing out a 7 or even 6.5 (which according to our voting standards actually meant "good to very good").

 

The one thing I actually will miss most (I now noticed), is that at the Vault you can only vote through a comment (within the "post" you get the option only to vote but I've rarely seen people being so lazy). I really like this system, because even if the remark accompanying the vote is a one-liner, it tells you at least something about your upload.

Edited April 21, 2012 by thestoryteller01

[Tchos]

Heh...I hate to be contradictory, but I that doesn't match what I've been seeing! :blush:

 

I'm afraid I have seen people on the Vault voting with 1s, and for frivolous reasons too. I'm playing the older modules now for the first time (like Dark Waters from 2007-2008), and after I finish them I go through the comments on the Vault and read them (which makes me feel like I was part of the community back then, by seeing their comments on what I just played). The very popular modules have accumulated a good number of comments over the years, and I got to see many such instances. On one of the Dark Waters pages, for instance, I saw people voting 1 without even playing it, and saying it was because the module was provided in a self-installer instead of a normal compressed archive (which they said they didn't like because of fear of viruses). More than one person deliberately voted lower than they thought it was worth, because of reasons like that, or because they thought too many people were voting high scores. Others voted 10 without playing it, saying they were familiar with Adam Miller's earlier work, and had faith that this one would be worth 10 too. Then there were other people who said things like "I would normally vote this 7.5, but I'm voting 10 to offset the people who voted 1". And other, more rational people tried to explain (but in vain) that you should only vote what you think it's actually worth, and not try to force the average score to what you think it should be. I saw reference to low votes being removed by moderators, and entire comments removed.

 

In short, it looked very much like what I saw here! Especially whenever a new expansion came out, or a new game was added to the roster, bringing new people who didn't know the proper etiquette. I suppose the good thing is that such behaviour on the Vault seems to have calmed down without changing the voting system, but that may simply be due to the lower number of comments and downloads. Dark Waters 1 has 37000 downloads and 752 comments, and I don't think anyone expects to get that many anymore.

 

Anyway, I agree with what you say about taking the constant 10s from certain voters with a grain of salt.

[thestoryteller01]

*snip* I go through the comments on the Vault and read them (which makes me feel like I was part of the community back then, by seeing their comments on what I just played) *snip*

 

I know exactly what you mean :happy:

 

Regarding the adventure modules - there may be some authors who polarized. But the last mod I played through and voted (long time ago back in 2008) is an average example for the decency of the Vault community imo: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=261&comment_page=2

 

But as I said, as much as I will miss a more diverse feedback, I will get used to the "thumbs up with no thumbs down" rating system :sleep:

[Tchos]

Understood. :)

[Xaltar]

Necro thread but I had to comment and rather here than in a new thread.

 

I personally love the new system here, the vault system is more or less a joke and has been almost from the outset. The votes were often petty as Tchos said: "I vote this 1 because it sux and too many people voted 10" or vice versa. To me it seemed like the voting on the vault really was from 9 - 10, where 9 was terrible and 10 was ok - awesome. The biggest problem was that the votes were not consistent, some people voted on the 9 scale and some by the rules and yet still others just voted up or down to push their own files up the rankings.

 

I feel more satisfaction here getting an endorsement on my work than I did getting a 10 over on the vault, it just feels more personal and I especially like that its not immediately evident who endorsed you and who didn't, it makes you appreciate the comments far more.

 

Just my 2c