Dovahkiin not powerful enough?

[scottym23]

When I see the dragons shout so frequently and for long periods of time dealing massive damage, that's exactly how I pictured the dovahkiin to be eventually with enough training. It would be awesome to slow time, get behind someone and fus ro dah them around. Then before they could get back up, you use the elemental fury shout to obliterate them with a bombardment of sword strikes. And yet as it is now, you'd have to wait a minute in order to do anything. Even with using the blessing of talos and the amulet, the shouts still take too long to recharge. What are your thoughts?

[thompsonar]

While it would be pretty epic to unleash multiple shouts in succession as you describe, I think then you'd be too powerful. The cool down times could certainly be shortened because some of them are ridiculous I definitely agree with you there. But taking them down too far would take away any challenge.

 

I'd like to see either a slightly decreased cool down, or just a more powerful shout. All the damage dealing shouts (ice breath, fire breath) seem very underpowered. Why would I use them when a firebolt/ice spike is just as powerful? I do envy the dragon and their prolonged shouts, would love to be able to spew fire for as long as the do.

 

As it is I hardly ever even use shouts, expect unrelenting force (even that one I wait until I have all three words of it). There are some mods that change cool down times and even remove them completely, by the way. I guess I should take a closer look at them.

[RedRavyn]

I have to agree with thompsonar after doing a little "experiment" just to see what that would be like. I enchanted a set of ordinary clothing with the Blessing of Talos (took a mod to do it), so that I had zero cool-down time between shouts. I went out into the plains of Whiterun wearing nothing but those ordinary enchanted things (shoes, clothes, hat, ring, and necklace). I had no other gear on me at all -- no armor, no potions, no weapons, no scrolls ... nothing. Just five items of apparel, each enchanted with with the 20% cool-down reduction.

 

I totally pwned everything. Mudcrabs, wolves, sabrecats, bears, bandits, giants, mammoths ... I even took on Fort Greymoor and cleared it out with no difficulty at all. The only shouts I used were Unrelenting Force (3 words), Ice Form (2 words), and Marked For Death (1 word). I used no spells, made no physical attacks. I just "shouted everything apart". It was fun, but not terribly challenging, and not something I'd do in my "real game".

 

What I'd like to see is for shouts to be treated like skills, so that you can level them up and they get progressively better as you use them. That just makes sense, and I'm surprised that Bethesda didn't think about this. There should also be a perk tree related to shouts, just like any other skill has one.

[scottym23]

I have to agree with thompsonar after doing a little "experiment" just to see what that would be like. I enchanted a set of ordinary clothing with the Blessing of Talos (took a mod to do it), so that I had zero cool-down time between shouts. I went out into the plains of Whiterun wearing nothing but those ordinary enchanted things (shoes, clothes, hat, ring, and necklace). I had no other gear on me at all -- no armor, no potions, no weapons, no scrolls ... nothing. Just five items of apparel, each enchanted with with the 20% cool-down reduction.

 

I totally pwned everything. Mudcrabs, wolves, sabrecats, bears, bandits, giants, mammoths ... I even took on Fort Greymoor and cleared it out with no difficulty at all. The only shouts I used were Unrelenting Force (3 words), Ice Form (2 words), and Marked For Death (1 word). I used no spells, made no physical attacks. I just "shouted everything apart". It was fun, but not terribly challenging, and not something I'd do in my "real game".

 

What I'd like to see is for shouts to be treated like skills, so that you can level them up and they get progressively better as you use them. That just makes sense, and I'm surprised that Bethesda didn't think about this. There should also be a perk tree related to shouts, just like any other skill has one.

I agree with you and thompsonar completely on the fact that the shout cool down time shouldn't be taking away completely from the start. Your idea about the skill tree and leveling up the specific shouts is exactly what many people and I have thought of and it would be fantastic. However the opinion I have which both of you may disagree with is that eventually I feel as though you SHOULD be able to eventually level each shout to the point where they have no cool down time. Before either of you or anyone else disagrees, hear me out;

 

I have been playing Skyrim since it's first day of release and have many alts. My main Nord character however is maxed out and is extremely fun to play on, but also extremely cheap.

 

Anyone else who has a maxed out character knows what I'm talking about; nothing is a challenge anymore. Even on master difficulty fighting legendary creatures with the mod enabled, nothing is even close to a match. I kill almost everything in a couple hits with ease.

 

And yet I find the game extremely fun and not at all boring, even with nothing posing a threat. I always go back to it and have a ton of fun. This is EXACTLY the same situation as you're saying will make the game less fun with this unstoppable power. However you've got the wrong idea about what i'm proposing.

 

My idea isn't that all shouts from the gecko have their cool downs removed. What i'm saying is something similar to a skill tree. And also a shout could only be trained to 100% cool down recovery once all the shouts had been collected, at least ensuring that the player has gotten far enough in the main story that he/she is already decently strong.

 

And again you'd have to work at it and it would take extremely long to max out a shout. Being extremely strong with shouts wouldn't effect the amount of fun your game would be if you worked at it, just as being maxed out doesn't effect it either.

Edited May 8, 2012 by scottym23

[Thoreai]

I have to agree with thompsonar after doing a little "experiment" just to see what that would be like. I enchanted a set of ordinary clothing with the Blessing of Talos (took a mod to do it), so that I had zero cool-down time between shouts. I went out into the plains of Whiterun wearing nothing but those ordinary enchanted things (shoes, clothes, hat, ring, and necklace). I had no other gear on me at all -- no armor, no potions, no weapons, no scrolls ... nothing. Just five items of apparel, each enchanted with with the 20% cool-down reduction.

 

I totally pwned everything. Mudcrabs, wolves, sabrecats, bears, bandits, giants, mammoths ... I even took on Fort Greymoor and cleared it out with no difficulty at all. The only shouts I used were Unrelenting Force (3 words), Ice Form (2 words), and Marked For Death (1 word). I used no spells, made no physical attacks. I just "shouted everything apart". It was fun, but not terribly challenging, and not something I'd do in my "real game".

 

What I'd like to see is for shouts to be treated like skills, so that you can level them up and they get progressively better as you use them. That just makes sense, and I'm surprised that Bethesda didn't think about this. There should also be a perk tree related to shouts, just like any other skill has one.

I agree with you and thompsonar completely on the fact that the shout cool down time shouldn't be taking away completely from the start. Your idea about the skill tree and leveling up the specific shouts is exactly what many people and I have thought of and it would be fantastic. However the opinion I have which both of you may disagree with is that eventually I feel as though you SHOULD be able to eventually level each shout to the point where they have no cool down time. Before either of you or anyone else disagrees, here me out;

 

I have been playing Skyrim since it's first day of release and have many alts. My main Nord character however is maxed out and is extremely fun to play on, but also extremely cheap.

 

Anyone else who has a maxed out character knows what I'm talking about; nothing is a challenge anymore. Even on master difficulty fighting legendary creatures with the mod enabled, nothing is even close to a match. I kill almost everything in a couple hits with ease.

 

And yet I find the game extremely fun and not at all boring, even with nothing posing a threat. I always go back to it and have a ton of fun. This is EXACTLY the same situation as you're saying will make the game less fun with this unstoppable power. However you've got the wrong idea about what i'm proposing.

 

My idea isn't that all shouts from the gecko have their cool downs removed. What i'm saying is something similar to a skill tree. And also a shout could only be trained to 100% cool down recovery once all the shouts had been collected, at least ensuring that the player has gotten far enough in the main story that he/she is already decently strong.

 

And again you'd have to work at it and it would take extremely long to max out a shout. Being extremely strong with shouts wouldn't effect the amount of fun your game would be if you worked at it, just as being maxed out doesn't effect it either.

This is because the game doesnt have any deeper combat mechanic other then hack&slash or pewpew spells....the combat lacks more interaction and use of special abilities since most of them are just stat changes and everything is only on basic level.

Most of the things you see, like block or shield charge are usually core abilties upon other fantasy games expand further, but in skyrim thats where it ends.

The thing that you look for is probably a mechanic that would represent the dovahkiin more deeper, as in letting you feel really being 'that someone special" everyone is talking about, but without unbalancing the game.

The shouts arent really anything amazing and basicaly they arent much different from any other spells you learn.

 

The thing with beths gameplay is that their ideas sound good only on paper but sadly, they are always porly implemented, wich is why no matter how many mods i put in or try different classes i cant shake that feeling being no differen then "that farmer" over there, working on the field.

I am probably too critical, but that is how i feel about it.

[scottym23]

I have to agree with thompsonar after doing a little "experiment" just to see what that would be like. I enchanted a set of ordinary clothing with the Blessing of Talos (took a mod to do it), so that I had zero cool-down time between shouts. I went out into the plains of Whiterun wearing nothing but those ordinary enchanted things (shoes, clothes, hat, ring, and necklace). I had no other gear on me at all -- no armor, no potions, no weapons, no scrolls ... nothing. Just five items of apparel, each enchanted with with the 20% cool-down reduction.

 

I totally pwned everything. Mudcrabs, wolves, sabrecats, bears, bandits, giants, mammoths ... I even took on Fort Greymoor and cleared it out with no difficulty at all. The only shouts I used were Unrelenting Force (3 words), Ice Form (2 words), and Marked For Death (1 word). I used no spells, made no physical attacks. I just "shouted everything apart". It was fun, but not terribly challenging, and not something I'd do in my "real game".

 

What I'd like to see is for shouts to be treated like skills, so that you can level them up and they get progressively better as you use them. That just makes sense, and I'm surprised that Bethesda didn't think about this. There should also be a perk tree related to shouts, just like any other skill has one.

I agree with you and thompsonar completely on the fact that the shout cool down time shouldn't be taking away completely from the start. Your idea about the skill tree and leveling up the specific shouts is exactly what many people and I have thought of and it would be fantastic. However the opinion I have which both of you may disagree with is that eventually I feel as though you SHOULD be able to eventually level each shout to the point where they have no cool down time. Before either of you or anyone else disagrees, here me out;

 

I have been playing Skyrim since it's first day of release and have many alts. My main Nord character however is maxed out and is extremely fun to play on, but also extremely cheap.

 

Anyone else who has a maxed out character knows what I'm talking about; nothing is a challenge anymore. Even on master difficulty fighting legendary creatures with the mod enabled, nothing is even close to a match. I kill almost everything in a couple hits with ease.

 

And yet I find the game extremely fun and not at all boring, even with nothing posing a threat. I always go back to it and have a ton of fun. This is EXACTLY the same situation as you're saying will make the game less fun with this unstoppable power. However you've got the wrong idea about what i'm proposing.

 

My idea isn't that all shouts from the gecko have their cool downs removed. What i'm saying is something similar to a skill tree. And also a shout could only be trained to 100% cool down recovery once all the shouts had been collected, at least ensuring that the player has gotten far enough in the main story that he/she is already decently strong.

 

And again you'd have to work at it and it would take extremely long to max out a shout. Being extremely strong with shouts wouldn't effect the amount of fun your game would be if you worked at it, just as being maxed out doesn't effect it either.

This is because the game doesnt have any deeper combat mechanic other then hack&slash or pewpew spells....the combat lacks more interaction and use of special abilities since most of them are just stat changes and everything is only on basic level.

Most of the things you see, like block or shield charge are usually core abilties upon other fantasy games expand further, but in skyrim thats where it ends.

The thing that you look for is probably a mechanic that would represent the dovahkiin more deeper, as in letting you feel really being 'that someone special" everyone is talking about, but without unbalancing the game.

The shouts arent really anything amazing and basicaly they arent much different from any other spells you learn.

 

The thing with beths gameplay is that their ideas sound good only on paper but sadly, they are always porly implemented, wich is why no matter how many mods i put in or try different classes i cant shake that feeling being no differen then "that farmer" over there, working on the field.

I am probably too critical, but that is how i feel about it.

 

I have the exact same feel as well. It's a lot of swing your sword, swing your sword, block, block, swing, swing, dead. Rinse and repeat. That is why I want the shouts to be more involved in the game play by allowing you to use them in more situations by decreasing the shout time. They are unique in my opinion in their effects. Also the fact that it's a shout and that only the Dovahkhiin can master them quickly and efficiently without years of training. It makes them feel more powerful and important.

 

On another note, it helps to hybrid when you feel the monotony of the hack and slash. Use a couple hacks with a 1h sword, shield bash a couple times, swing with the 2h some more, fus ro dah the enemy/enemies and run back as you're getting out your bow and give them a coupe good shots. Then take out a staff and shoot em a couple time to finish them off. On my hybrid I've hot keyed my best spells, sword, 2h, shield, bow, and staff to make this run smoothly and efficiently, and it's extremely rewarding.

[Thoreai]

I have to agree with thompsonar after doing a little "experiment" just to see what that would be like. I enchanted a set of ordinary clothing with the Blessing of Talos (took a mod to do it), so that I had zero cool-down time between shouts. I went out into the plains of Whiterun wearing nothing but those ordinary enchanted things (shoes, clothes, hat, ring, and necklace). I had no other gear on me at all -- no armor, no potions, no weapons, no scrolls ... nothing. Just five items of apparel, each enchanted with with the 20% cool-down reduction.

 

I totally pwned everything. Mudcrabs, wolves, sabrecats, bears, bandits, giants, mammoths ... I even took on Fort Greymoor and cleared it out with no difficulty at all. The only shouts I used were Unrelenting Force (3 words), Ice Form (2 words), and Marked For Death (1 word). I used no spells, made no physical attacks. I just "shouted everything apart". It was fun, but not terribly challenging, and not something I'd do in my "real game".

 

What I'd like to see is for shouts to be treated like skills, so that you can level them up and they get progressively better as you use them. That just makes sense, and I'm surprised that Bethesda didn't think about this. There should also be a perk tree related to shouts, just like any other skill has one.

I agree with you and thompsonar completely on the fact that the shout cool down time shouldn't be taking away completely from the start. Your idea about the skill tree and leveling up the specific shouts is exactly what many people and I have thought of and it would be fantastic. However the opinion I have which both of you may disagree with is that eventually I feel as though you SHOULD be able to eventually level each shout to the point where they have no cool down time. Before either of you or anyone else disagrees, here me out;

 

I have been playing Skyrim since it's first day of release and have many alts. My main Nord character however is maxed out and is extremely fun to play on, but also extremely cheap.

 

Anyone else who has a maxed out character knows what I'm talking about; nothing is a challenge anymore. Even on master difficulty fighting legendary creatures with the mod enabled, nothing is even close to a match. I kill almost everything in a couple hits with ease.

 

And yet I find the game extremely fun and not at all boring, even with nothing posing a threat. I always go back to it and have a ton of fun. This is EXACTLY the same situation as you're saying will make the game less fun with this unstoppable power. However you've got the wrong idea about what i'm proposing.

 

My idea isn't that all shouts from the gecko have their cool downs removed. What i'm saying is something similar to a skill tree. And also a shout could only be trained to 100% cool down recovery once all the shouts had been collected, at least ensuring that the player has gotten far enough in the main story that he/she is already decently strong.

 

And again you'd have to work at it and it would take extremely long to max out a shout. Being extremely strong with shouts wouldn't effect the amount of fun your game would be if you worked at it, just as being maxed out doesn't effect it either.

This is because the game doesnt have any deeper combat mechanic other then hack&slash or pewpew spells....the combat lacks more interaction and use of special abilities since most of them are just stat changes and everything is only on basic level.

Most of the things you see, like block or shield charge are usually core abilties upon other fantasy games expand further, but in skyrim thats where it ends.

The thing that you look for is probably a mechanic that would represent the dovahkiin more deeper, as in letting you feel really being 'that someone special" everyone is talking about, but without unbalancing the game.

The shouts arent really anything amazing and basicaly they arent much different from any other spells you learn.

 

The thing with beths gameplay is that their ideas sound good only on paper but sadly, they are always porly implemented, wich is why no matter how many mods i put in or try different classes i cant shake that feeling being no differen then "that farmer" over there, working on the field.

I am probably too critical, but that is how i feel about it.

 

I have the exact same feel as well. It's a lot of swing your sword, swing your sword, block, block, swing, swing, dead. Rinse and repeat. That is why I want the shouts to be more involved in the game play by allowing you to use them in more situations by decreasing the shout time. They are unique in my opinion in their effects. Also the fact that it's a shout and that only the Dovahkhiin can master them quickly and efficiently without years of training. It makes them feel more powerful and important.

 

On another note, it helps to hybrid when you feel the monotony of the hack and slash. Use a couple hacks with a 1h sword, shield bash a couple times, swing with the 2h some more, fus ro dah the enemy/enemies and run back as you're getting out your bow and give them a coupe good shots. Then take out a staff and shoot em a couple time to finish them off. On my hybrid I've hot keyed my best spells, sword, 2h, shield, bow, and staff to make this run smoothly and efficiently, and it's extremely rewarding.

The shouts are a good idea, but i agree with you, their involvement should be more...this is the problem of tes freeform gameplay, because the game doesnt push you to use some abilties in certain situations, that way many of them appear useless, but for that the whole npc AI would need to be totaly overhauled, to make the gameplay challening and all abilities usefull.

I been trying also hybrid classes, but that didnt lasted long, because as soon as i started to look for a deeper experience there was the "thats where it ends".

I really hope in the next Tes they put more work into this.

Edited May 8, 2012 by pavy

[thompsonar]

@scottym23

 

I think your idea of training the shouts to ultimately have no cool down time makes perfect sense. I guess you get to a point where it doesn't matter anyway, like you said nothing is a threat. As long as there's a process you have to go through to get there, yeah I'm for it.

 

I've never really taken a character that far. I constantly start over again and again. I've gotten a couple characters in to the mid 40's and felt overpowered at that point so I download a mod or two to raise the difficulty and give it another go from the beginning. I'm still waiting on a good combat overhaul that perhaps tweaks the AI a little and incorporates "hit zones" so it matters where I hit enemies with my sword/arrow/spell.

 

As for the next TES, after Bethesda sees what ultimately happens with the mods that come out for Skyrim they will be forced to really put work into the next one. I expect there will be some awesome mods in a few months time, there are certainly some good ones all ready. It has to make them think.

[scottym23]

@scottym23

 

I think your idea of training the shouts to ultimately have no cool down time makes perfect sense. I guess you get to a point where it doesn't matter anyway, like you said nothing is a threat. As long as there's a process you have to go through to get there, yeah I'm for it.

 

I've never really taken a character that far. I constantly start over again and again. I've gotten a couple characters in to the mid 40's and felt overpowered at that point so I download a mod or two to raise the difficulty and give it another go from the beginning. I'm still waiting on a good combat overhaul that perhaps tweaks the AI a little and incorporates "hit zones" so it matters where I hit enemies with my sword/arrow/spell.

 

As for the next TES, after Bethesda sees what ultimately happens with the mods that come out for Skyrim they will be forced to really put work into the next one. I expect there will be some awesome mods in a few months time, there are certainly some good ones all ready. It has to make them think.

 

Yeah I know exactly what you mean, and I hope there eventually is a good combat mod that eventually comes out. I started a different topic not too long ago that was about whether a mod such as the deadly reflex mod for Oblivion would be implemented in Skyrim. Here's the link to the deadly reflex mod if you don't already know about it: http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=8273

 

I know for many people and me personally this mod had greatly improved my Oblivion experience all around and still does whenever I get around to playing it. And this is for Oblivion, so just imagine the possibilities for a mod like this in Skyrim with the CK. Makes me wonder why someone hasn't made one yet.

Edited May 8, 2012 by scottym23

[thompsonar]

Yeah that mod looks pretty cool, would love to see something like that for Skyrim. I never played Oblivion, when it came out I was still playing Morrowind and a buddy of mine picked up Oblivion, I watched him play for a little while and decided to skip it. When Skryim came along I figured I'd give TES another chance. Overall I think the game is great, just miss some of the things they took out since Morrowind.

 

Given a little more time I'm sure there will be plenty of options for combat mods. There are all ready quite a few, just not really what I'm looking for. There's a couple I've thought about trying, but just for the sake of game stability I am waiting. I really don't want to have all the crashes that so many others are experiencing, so I'm picky with mods.