A few basic and specific house building questions

[miketheratguy]

Hey guys, I've been interested in making my own home for awhile but there are some aspects that I don't understand, so I figured I'd ask the guys who, unlike myself, have modded before and could maybe give me some pointers.

 

1: Is it correct that as of 1.5.26 the navmesh bug has still not been corrected? If I make my own house from scratch and save it as an esp, any NPC followers won't be able to enter it or will stop moving once left inside and "left alone" as I go wander? I'm using "Extensible Follower Network" and my goal is to leave characters behind to sandbox, so this is important.

 

2: I understand that the navmesh bug can be corrected by turning the esp into an esm. Should I fully create my home and then worry about converting afterward, or am I supposed to only do part of the work in the esp, THEN convert it and finish the rest of the work? I'm confused about the process and seeing conflicting tutorials.

 

3: When using any mod that allows me to tell follower NPCs to "relax" or "sandbox", I've noticed a consistent issue: They generally prefer to stay on a single floor as opposed to roaming multiple levels (Dragonsreach is a good example). The modders haven't been able to come up with any reason why this is, and that it "just is". Is there something that can be done to a cell to insure that characters will roam the whole thing like housecarls do?

 

4: If I were to make an outdoor home by placing objects down but DON'T edit the ground in any way, do I still need to navmesh it?

 

5: Similarly, if I drop an interactive object such as a forge or bed, is it ready to go or does this need to be linked into the navmesh as well? For example if I simply edit an existing cell (again, let's say Dragonsreach) and place a grindstone inside it, will characters use it?

 

6: I'm thinking of using an existing cell as a starting-off point. If I duplicate a cell, is there a way to only duplicate the structures and furniture but not things like quest triggers and npcs? If not, is it safe to go through it and delete each of those things in the duplicate?

 

7: Lastly, when duplicating a cell, does it retain its navmesh or do I have to apply it again myself?

 

 

Sorry for all the questions, and I apologize if some of them are a bit silly and / or obvious. I've never made a mod before and while I HAVE gone through some tutorials and watched some videos, it's a bit confusing and intimidating for the first-timer. I really wanted to know these answers specifically so I understand what the possibilities and limits are before I dive in. Thanks for any help!

Edited May 9, 2012 by miketheratguy

[tetradite]

1- Far as I can tell, no, it's still not fixed. Followers etc will be able to follow you/sandbox as long as you have not already loaded the cell, then moved more than 2 cells away from it, then come back again without restarting the game. It won't totally block them.

 

2- As I understand it it's best to thoroughly understand what you're doing and plan the split file thing from the start. In all honesty if this your first mod I wouldn't even think about ESP/ESM splits personally. Just build your home as if the bug doesn't exist and hope that Beth fix it later. Even worst come to worst your home will still work, just not all the time (see 1). You are going to have enough to learn already without this worry.

 

3- Not really my territory, if the people who are smart enough to make the mods you are talking about can't or won't do it for you I'm not gonna be able to help on this one...

 

4- Yes and no. No you don't HAVE to but when they plot routes NPCs will not know the objects are there so you woud be likely to see lots of getting stuck on things or standing in the middle of fires.

 

5- Most of them are ready to go. As long as there's navmesh NEAR to it (so the NPC can work out a route to it) it's fine, it doesn't need to be "connected" in the way I think you mean. Again though, if you're just dropping a forge say into existing navmesh without amending the mesh then expect your followers to wind up getting stuck on it or standing in it.

 

6- Don't is my advice. Duplicate the AAAwhateveritscalleddeletetest cell, blank out everything in it and start from scratch. Don't touch ANYTHING that you don't need to, especially if it's related to quests. You can always have a look at another cell in the CK, make a note of some of the pieces you like etc (even this I'd suggest doing without your mod open, then closing CK and opening your mod to start work) It's too easy to make changes you don't notice, and when you know what pieces you want, with snap-to-grid on it will take seconds or minutes to put together a basic layout. Duplicating real cells/npcs etc is just asking for trouble IMHO, others will disagree. Besides, don't you want something unique? ;)

 

7- It will keep it's mesh but see 6.

Edited May 9, 2012 by tetradite

[miketheratguy]

Thanks a lot for the answers. Unfortunately they aren't what I hoped but I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

 

Basically the situation is this: I keep wanting to make a home for myself and learn the CK, but I always get to a point where I stop and think "What's the point? I can't finish this unless I learn how to split the file into an esm". The reason is because I use followers constantly- mainly to populate my home for immersion and decoration- and if the characters can't wander around and interact with things whenever I enter the place, I might as well not make it.

 

So that general block is what keeps spitting me back to the beginning. If I can't make a functional navmesh on my own without fiddling with the ESM conversion (which, I agree, is something that I feel isn't suited for a first-timer) I start thinking of alternatives. "What if I build a home outdoors and didn't need to navmesh it"? "What if I just copied an existing cell that had a nice layout and altered it a bit to suit my tastes"? and stuff like that.

 

The abundance of mods shows that it's apparently not that hard of a process to eventually get the hang of, but my wish is so specific- a large, single-cell home that's optimally built for companion realism- seems to require me to have intimate knowledge of navmeshing and file splitting, which happen to be the two things that I found most intimidating. So I guess these questions were a way for me to understand what can be done, or what SHOULD be done.

[tetradite]

Thanks a lot for the answers. Unfortunately they aren't what I hoped but I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

 

Basically the situation is this: I keep wanting to make a home for myself and learn the CK, but I always get to a point where I stop and think "What's the point? I can't finish this unless I learn how to split the file into an esm". The reason is because I use followers constantly- mainly to populate my home for immersion and decoration- and if the characters can't wander around and interact with things whenever I enter the place, I might as well not make it.

 

So that general block is what keeps spitting me back to the beginning. If I can't make a functional navmesh on my own without fiddling with the ESM conversion (which, I agree, is something that I feel isn't suited for a first-timer) I start thinking of alternatives. "What if I build a home outdoors and didn't need to navmesh it"? "What if I just copied an existing cell that had a nice layout and altered it a bit to suit my tastes"? and stuff like that.

 

The abundance of mods shows that it's apparently not that hard of a process to eventually get the hang of, but my wish is so specific- a large, single-cell home that's optimally built for companion realism- seems to require me to have intimate knowledge of navmeshing and file splitting, which happen to be the two things that I found most intimidating. So I guess these questions were a way for me to understand what can be done, or what SHOULD be done.

 

I know how you feel. It took me a LONG time to get over that particular hump - the "why bother if it can't be just what I want?" hump. I probably abandoned 100 projects in FONV and Skyrim before I really got into it. I guess I'm mostly saying that you ought to lump in to it anyway, because like all learning you won't learn by getting it right, you'll learn by getting things wrong. Don't wait to know everything before you start because until you start you won't know everything.

 

It's your first project and you have some pretty grand ideas for it (I don't mean this in a bad way at all), expect it to crash and burn. Then pick through the ashes for the lessons, and if Beth still haven't fixed the navmesh bug THEN worry about esp/esm splits when you've got more experience, and most importantly confidence.

 

Just my 2c though. I'm sure someone else will tell you esm/esp splits are easy enough.

[jet4571]

3. it is the sandbox package they choose to use for the relax or move in function. You get the same results from any of the default sandboxes such as all the housecarls use the 512 version and everyone can see how they dont move much. the best ones to use are actually the spouse ones. the NPC's will be more active and wander much farther.

 

6. I disagree with tetradite on this one. It is perfectly safe to duplicate an existing interior cell as long as you clean your mod after to remove the reference to the original. As for everything inside the cell you get it all in the new one, just go through the list and delete anything you didn't want such as quest items, NPC's that may live there, anything marked as owned because unmarking them sux.

 

7. It will have the navmesh but after you are done changing it you will need to redo allot of it. Also both the interior and exterior navmesh will require finalizing even if you did not change anything in it. Otherwise NPC's will not enter or exit.

[tetradite]

6. I disagree with tetradite on this one. It is perfectly safe to duplicate an existing interior cell as long as you clean your mod after to remove the reference to the original. As for everything inside the cell you get it all in the new one, just go through the list and delete anything you didn't want such as quest items, NPC's that may live there, anything marked as owned because unmarking them sux.

 

Not seeking an argument in any way at all, just to clarify my opinion a little - it's certainly not impossible to do safely, but duplicating creates a risk (albeit one that can be removed) that simply does not exist if you work from scratch. Personally I don't think it's worth adding ANY risk unless that risk saves you substantial time or effort, and in 99% of situations I think it would take longer to duplicate, strip out what you don't want AND do mod cleaning than it would to start from scratch and knock up the basic layout yourself (which is likely all you were going to keep in this situation).

 

To me, for it to be worth duplicating (even just purely in terms of time taken) it would have to be a very large/complicated cell where I was planning on keeping a lot of the original e.g lighting, containers, clutter).

[miketheratguy]

Thanks for the advice from both of you; I feel like I'm already learning some good ideas.

 

I WAS probably going to use most of the cell that I wanted to duplicate. It's Dragonsreach which I kept referencing earlier- not the biggest cell, and some of it is separate, but the main hall is big and has some nice rooms off to the side. I still don't quite understand why the followers won't go up and down to the different levels- they stay on the one I leave them on, regardless of how far they're willing to walk- but regardless, it's a nice area.

 

I was thinking of taking that hall and maybe altering some of the rooms so that they serve different purposes. For example the upper balcony would have some beds and the "map room" would be a small smithing room. I planned to copy the cell, delete / add as necessary, and see how it all worked. But again, that damn navmesh hump stoppped me from wanting to invest the time and then I was confused about eliminating the references as well. That room has some extremely important NPCs and quest stuff that I don't want to mess up.

[jet4571]

Allot of times it is quicker to duplicate if you plan on the interior to have the same layout. removing content you dont want takes far less time than building 1/16th the new interior. cleaning the mod is as simple as deleting the cell in TESVsnip. takes longer to load skyrim.esm in the CK than it does to complete the process of removing that dirty edit in TESVsnip.

 

What risks? risk that your mod has an asterisk next to the cell name and nothing more? Sorry but you can have many mods that have an asterisk on the cell name without an edit to anything inside the cell and there is no risk. the only risk would be to open the cell and copy everything to paste into another cell and accidently moving everyhting. but that wasnt suggested since duplicating a cell is as easy as right click on the cell name in the list without opening the cell itself.

[jet4571]

Just incase you get some dirty edits here is a tutorial for you. http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/594133-tutorial-cleaning-mods-with-the-ck/

[miketheratguy]

What I was most worried about is making some kind of mistake that would ruin anything in the original cell (notably the quest and NPC elements). I guess I had been hoping that there was some command to copy the structure itself but not the people or "intangibles" but I understand now that it just doesn't work that way. So it IS safe (if not advisable, even) to go through the objects in my duplicated cell and get rid of everything that isn't a structure or piece of furniture that I want to keep? It's okay to get rid of all the "idle points" and dummy objects that I see?

 

Not afraid of dirty edits since this is going to probably just be for my own use, though I would like to get rid of them if possible so thanks for that link. I like tetradite's idea of just plowing ahead and making my mod and not worrying about the navmesh now, but I also know that I won't be able to rest knowing that there's a way to fix it with exterior programs. I know NOTHING of TESVsnip or Wrye Bash or anything like that- as much as is possible, I avoid everything I don't absolutely need to get my game going (and in this case, the CK to try making a mod)- so I'm wondering, is it particularly involved or complicated to convert a finished esp into an esm? Or is that even how you go about keeping the navmesh working?