tetradite Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 @Jet Each to their own, really. Different workflows work for different people. It honestly takes me less time to build a layout than strip out an existng one, we are all different animals. Increased risks, off the top of my head: - It increases the risk of user error, at several stages, it's 5am so this may not be the best example but say you duplicate the cell and don't have your cell name column stretched far enough, and delete all the objects out of the original cell. I know this would be a stupid thing to do, but I 100% guarantee you people will have done it. - It increases the chance you'll be left with something in your cell that you didn't intend to be there, or acts in ways you didn't intend. Did you remember to change all the location/cell ownership data etc? Especially if you were a newcomer, would you even know how many things you actually might need to change? - Even if it is a simple process to clean, it's another user process, another stage potentially needlessly included just to try to save a little time. When there is no deadline and doing it the 'longer' way isn't even tedious (personally I'd say it was enjoyable). Ah, maybe it's just me being OCD, I do HATE those asterixes. But if the asterix so concretely means so little why are you so keen to clean it afterwards? Why call it a dirty edit? If it's dirty, surely best practice (horrible phrase but the right one) would be don't do it unless it's necessary? To me, it's a messier workflow with more scope for user error, especially to a new modder. And you learn more by building it yourself. Even if just getting a better grasp of the naming systems for stock pieces. Gaining that kind of experience saves you tons of time later on. Doing it through duplication robs you of that experience. Beyond that I'm sorry but I just don't trust the CK an inch, and I'd rather not give it any opportunity to even think about making or marking a change I don't intend. I'm more than capable of breaking things on my own without the CK's assistance. I don't want to belittle the importance of cleaning (having discovered it's vital myself) and I'm not saying that you are wrong, but your approach isn't one I personally take. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet4571 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Converting the esp into an esm takes 5 steps in TESVsnip. 1. open the .esp in TESVsnip2. expand the "records list" tree.3. right click the TES4 entry and select EDIT.4. in the menu box next to FLAGS 1 find and check "ESM File" It is the first one in the list, or should be.5. save as .esm. That's it, perfectly simple. As for when you have a duplicated cell it is safe to delete everything in it if you want. Yes there is a way to copy everything in the original cell and put it into another but the navmesh wont copy with it. plus there's no reason to do that when duplicating the whole cell is faster and adjusting the navmesh to the changes is faster than creating a new one even if you use the auto generate. Once you have the basic layout it doesn't take long to fill in holes and make new ones because furniture was changed, auto generate forces you to do that anyway.. As for Navmesh I dont recommend auto generating them. you will spend more time fixing them than it takes to just make one from scratch. I do suggest you start small with learning how to work with the kits and navmesh. dragonsreach is a rather large place to start but as you make it your own you will learn how they are put together from example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet4571 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 No worries tetradite, both ways of slaying that animal get the same results in the end. 1 slain animal. and just to let you know the only part I disagreed on was you saying to never do it. But in all honesty the CK tutorial itself says to duplicate an existing cell. albeit the cell is not used in the game but it is still a duplicated cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketheratguy Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 That's what gave me the idea originally; the tut said to duplicate a cell like "aaamarker" or something and to go from there. So I got to thinking that maybe I could find a cell I like, duplicate it, rid it of the stuff I don't want, but keep the furniture and structure basically the same. In my mind, doing this would produce an exact copy of the cell (minus the stuff I delete, obviously) meaning that the navmesh would be ready to go and would function exactly the same. I also thought that since it was navmeshed, I could just drop items where I like and the NPCs would understand how to use them and walk around them. I'm glad I asked; these are beginner assumptions that needed to be corrected. I'm still kind of waffling. On one hand I'm thinking of doing the duplication thing and seeing what I learn, and on the other hand I'm thinking of doing my own mod from scratch and making it an outdoor location that's raised off the ground somehow (so I don't have to mess with the existing navmesh on the ground). Jet, you're saying that regardless of what I do, I should fully complete the esp- navmesh and all (you both seem to agree on this)- and then afterwards I just run it through TESVsnip and make those few clicks, and the resulting ESM will be fully NPC friendly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketheratguy Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 Well despite the fact that I just used it yesterday, my Creation Kit is now crashing at startup, so I guess it's kind of a moot point anyway. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet4571 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Mike the assumptions you made are basically correct. If you leave the furniture in the same spots and dont add anymore or anything else on the floor then the navmesh will be done except for finalizing once you get the doors linked to the world. I agree that learning to start from scratch is a good idea but I think it is a waste of time if what you want is already made. i do it for my own mods if there is a building with the layout i want. As for any furniture you add all of them will be useable by the NPC's. plus you can drop idle markers all over, so thats not an issue unless you want to add some ore, then you need to link it to the mining animation. I really do believe you should go for it, get used to the CK and then create a unigue building when you are confident. and remember there is nothing you can do with the CK that will permanently break the game. maybe a save file or 2 lol As for the CK issue did you verify the cache? right click on it in steam, select properties, local files tab, second button from the bottom. Edited May 9, 2012 by jet4571 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketheratguy Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 I don't quite understand what idle markers are...are they literally just a spot on the floor where a character will occasionally wander and stand around? If so, what happens when there isn't one? Anyway the information you've both given me is really helpful. I think I'm going to try duplicating and messing with a pre-existing structure- if not Dragonsreach then something smaller at first- and after I get a little more acquainted with what I'm doing I'll try to do something from scratch. I just need to get the CK figured out now because aside from testing a few mods today, I don't know what would cause it to stop working. I went and uninstalled it but now that you've said to verify the cache I'll reinstall and try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet4571 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 You ever see an NPC sweeping? Or leaning against a wall? or feeding chickens? those are idle markers. some are invisible furniture like ledge sitting, laying down or sitting cross legged. They add to the atmosphere of the building when NPC's are there like adding a warm hands idle marker where there is a fire pit. Really you cant go wrong with adding some of those, otherwise the NPC's will go from furniture to furniture and bore you to tears. You can see a good example of them in helgas bunkhouse. look for the blue things on the floor and orange people with green boxes but no furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetradite Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Mike - best of luck, feel free to pm even if you don't want to post something... Jet - yep - as they say in Photoshopland, always more than one way to skin a pixel... actually it's kind of the fun of these things isn't it, finding your own ways that work. That could have got uncivil, forums being forums, glad it didn't, K+ if I hadn't already K'd you... Edited May 9, 2012 by tetradite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet4571 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Another reason to duplicate: Duplicating a cell is a good way to quickly make the same environment changes to several like if you make a small town or have outbuildings. you would want them all to have the same atmosphere to make it feel like they belong in the same town or property. so after you have the first interior floorplan done make the environment the way you want and duplicate then delete everything in it. this way all you need to do is the name. Tetradite, It's always good to know other ways of accomplishing the same goal. I am sure Mike was happy to learn 2 ways to do it, and yes thanks for remaining civil about it. K+ to you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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