Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[Kraeten]

it is said many times in the game that Ulfric enjoys the suffering of non-Nords,

 

Uh, prove it? Ulfric doesn't like foreigners this is true, but he has never abused them. The worst treatment a foreigner can expect is to be ignored. This isn't a good trait, but it really isn't that big of a fault either.

 

These people are still citizens of Skyrim, even if they are not Nords. So, Ulfric's lack of caring for their suffering makes me think that, not only is he not fit to be High-King, but he is not fit to be jarl of Wiindhelm either.

 

So, you think foreigners being ignored is worse than allowing Thalmor agents to violently interrogate/kill your people at will? That's what you're arguing.

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but they do not sit around laughing about dark elve children being murdered by bandits, the way, I assume based on what is said about him in the game, Ulfric would.

 

You assume incorrectly. Ulfric simply doesn't care for foreigners. If he truly took some perverse pleasure in the suffering of elves, he wouldn't allow them to live within his city. Or anywhere near it.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Kraeten

[fraquar]

Let alone one having a market stall and owning property in Windhelm proper...... Edited June 9, 2012 by fraquar

[gybugy]

look at the past and present dictators of the world they all ruled with fear and murder skyrim is pretty much the same. at the pinnacle of all civilizations we fall look at the Romans they fell pretty hard on their faces. but no one really sees what the AD are doing manipulating imperials as their play-toys just to find them shredded by the storm cloaks yet there is no true evil they all do good even if it means wasting a few lives alas storm cloaks are making out that imperials are not be allowed in skyrim well then why are nords allowed in cyrodiil and yet if skyrim was to become a republic of tamriel that would cause another civil war making Ulfric the high king who undoubtedly will force people to join an army to take over tamriel.

[Deleted4666244User]

i secretly think that Ulfric is a werewolf...

[breakwind]

Or he could be a Thalmor conjured dead thrall :tongue: After all they leave the impression he is doing their bidding......

[Dan3345]

OK. I only read the first post and skipped all the other 24 pages but can I just say. SubjectPrphet in the first post (who is no longer with us, bless his soul :P ) said that Ulfric challenged Toryg and defeated him by disarming him with a shout and then killing him with his axe, using no magic or shouts. But itsn't disarming him with a shout, using a shout? Toryg did not know how to shout, and certainly wasn't prepared for Ulfric to shout at him. How is that a fair fight?

[imperistan]

OK. I only read the first post and skipped all the other 24 pages but can I just say. SubjectPrphet in the first post (who is no longer with us, bless his soul :P ) said that Ulfric challenged Toryg and defeated him by disarming him with a shout and then killing him with his axe, using no magic or shouts. But itsn't disarming him with a shout, using a shout? Toryg did not know how to shout, and certainly wasn't prepared for Ulfric to shout at him. How is that a fair fight?

 

Because Ulfric's shouting ability is so damn weak he may as well disarmed him with his axe for all the advantage he was actually getting out of his voice.

 

And besides that, the thu'um does not make you omnipotent. Any warrior worth his salt can muscle through it, and only those too weak to do so would cry about it being "unfair".

 

Indeed, its almost always the losers who complain about something being unfair, even when its something that its more than possible for them to match.

Edited June 11, 2012 by imperistan

[BrettM]

Here are some pertinent conversations with Ulfric.

 

Q: You trained with the Greybeards?

 

Yes. They chose me when I was just a lad. It was a great honor, of course. I was to become a Greybeard myself.

 

I spent almost 10 years at High Hrothgar, learning the Way of the Voice. Then the Great War came ... I couldn't stand missing it.

 

I often think about High Hrothgar. It's very ... disconnected from the troubles down here. But that's why I couldn't stay, and why I couldn't go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrim's troubles, in their way, but I needed to do something about it. I'm sure Arngeir would call it one of my failings.

 

Q: So you know how to Shout?

 

Yes. Although I rarely use my training. The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have fallen from their strict teaching, but I still don't feel it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngeir's lecturing was wasted, it seems.

 

Q: Why would they teach me to Shout if they didn't want me to use it?

 

You're Dragonborn. The rules don't apply to you. You can Shout the way dragons do, without training, through inborn instinct.

 

They always hope to teach the Dragonborn to respect the Way of the Voice as they do, but they never fully succeed. You'll have to make your own decision.

 

It's a beautiful philosophy, but outside the seclusion of High Hrothgar I was never able to hold to it.

 

Q: At Helgen, they said you Shouted the King to death?

 

Not entirely true, though not entirely false, either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My Shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him.

 

Q: Why did you kill the High King?

 

I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?

 

Q: Some call you a murderer.

 

I challenged him in the traditional way and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No "murder" was committed.

 

True, he didn't stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet-king of the Empire, not a high-king of Skyrim. His father before him, perhaps, but not Torygg. He was too priviledged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than in ruling his country.

Edited June 11, 2012 by BrettM

[MacSuibhne]

Here are some pertinent conversations with Ulfric.

 

Q: You trained with the Greybeards?

 

Yes. They chose me when I was just a lad. It was a great honor, of course. I was to become a Greybeard myself.

 

I spent almost 10 years at High Hrothgar, learning the Way of the Voice. Then the Great War came ... I couldn't stand missing it.

 

I often think about High Hrothgar. It's very ... disconnected from the troubles down here. But that's why I couldn't stay, and why I couldn't go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrim's troubles, in their way, but I needed to do something about it. I'm sure Arngeir would call it one of my failings.

 

Q: So you know how to Shout?

 

Yes. Although I rarely use my training. The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have fallen from their strict teaching, but I still don't feel it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngeir's lecturing was wasted, it seems.

 

Q: Why would they teach me to Shout if they didn't want me to use it?

 

You're Dragonborn. The rules don't apply to you. You can Shout the way dragons do, without training, through inborn instinct.

 

They always hope to teach the Dragonborn to respect the Way of the Voice as they do, but they never fully succeed. You'll have to make your own decision.

 

It's a beautiful philosophy, but outside the seclusion of High Hrothgar I was never able to hold to it.

 

Q: At Helgen, they said you Shouted the King to death?

 

Not entirely true, though not entirely false, either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My Shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him.

 

Q: Why did you kill the High King?

 

I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?

 

Q: Some call you a murderer.

 

I challenged him in the traditional way and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No "murder" was committed.

 

True, he didn't stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet-king of the Empire, not a high-king of Skyrim. His father before him, perhaps, but not Torygg. He was too priviledged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than in ruling his country.

 

No offense...curiousity. Are these hypothetical conversations or actual dialog from the game? If the latter, how do I go about initiating this exchange with Ulfric?

[BrettM]

@Mac: Those are actual dialog transcripts. The parts about the High King are available to all characters. I managed to trigger the Greybeard parts with a character that joined the Stormcloaks before doing "Dragon Rising". I don't know if there are other conditions that might make this exchange available.

 

Some comments on Ulfric's dialog:

 

It would appear that Ulfric used Unrelenting Force on Torygg, not Disarm. This makes sense to me, since he also uses it on Rikke (Stormcloak finale) or on Tullius (Empire finale). I don't believe I've ever seen him use any other Shout, and he may not know any others given that ordinary mortals take years to master a shout.

 

One does have to wonder about Ulfric's claim that he doesn't use his training lightly, though. In the fight with Rikke, she was outnumbered three-to-one: Ulfric, Galmar, and you. Was it really and truly necessary to send her flying across the room while taunting and laughing at her? He looked like a guy on a serious power trip during that fight. Once the adrenaline started flowing, a really brutal streak came out.

 

It is quite clear that the Greybeards trained Ulfric with the expectation that he would follow the Way and become one of them. That seems to have been Ulfric's expectation as well. There was a meeting of the minds regardless of any formal written contract or vows. If Ulfric accepted the training with the secret intent not to follow the Way, then he defrauded the Greybeards. But I believe he went there with the sincere desire to join them.

 

It is crystal clear that the Greybeards don't just train anyone, but only those that they judge will follow the Way. The Greybeards aren't operating some College of the Voice (and Tiber Septim's efforts to establish one came to nothing). The Greybeards don't want anyone using the Voice outside the strictures of the Way, and it would be ridiculous to assert that they are willing to defeat their own agenda by training anyone who can be expected not to follow the Way. They seem to have been successful at vetting their applicants until Ulfric, since we don't hear a single rumor of any other non-dragonborn, non-Greybeard Tongue in Skyrim over the last 2,000 years.

 

(Note that Ulfric does not say that any Nord can learn the Voice if they have the dedication. He says that any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice. It is obviously up to the Greybeards to judge if the applicant is truly dedicated to the Way before training him.)

Edited June 11, 2012 by BrettM