Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

I like Jarl Balgruuf. I think he's a decent fellow.

 

But being likeable and decent doesn't a king make. Some people are better off as Jarls...just as some people may or may not be better as generals than presidents or kings.

 

Jarl Balgruuf always makes me wonder if he's a little bored with being a leader of anything. I think he'd rather be following me into old Nordic ruins.

[Deleted4666244User]

Ulfric may be smart, but i do not think that personally, he would make a good high king. He killed Torygg, and during the Civil war, he replaces the Jarls with people that support him BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN BECOME HIGH KING. at least IMHO, that is what he was trying to do.

[fraquar]

Not sure why Ulfric, or any person in his position changing Jarls is a surprise to anyone. Thats what happens in a power shift.

 

It's rare when you keep someone from an existing regime unless they possess unique special talents. Looking at the quality of the sitting Jarls in Skyrim, thats simply not gonna happen no matter who takes control.

[MacSuibhne]

Not sure why Ulfric, or any person in his position changing Jarls is a surprise to anyone. Thats what happens in a power shift.

 

It's rare when you keep someone from an existing regime unless they possess unique special talents. Looking at the quality of the sitting Jarls in Skyrim, thats simply not gonna happen no matter who takes control.

 

+1

 

And just to give the lie...Elisif retains her position as Jarl when Ulfric wins.

[Michio2013]

Balgruuf wasn't an isolationist, he traded with other holds, indeed, he was the jarl of the central trading hold in Skyrim. He just didn't needlessly involve his people and soldiers in a war.

 

Back to Ulfric. It was within his rights to duel Torygg, killing is still up in the air, but he did have the right to challenge Torygg as high king. I for one, say that he did not have the right to kill him, regardless of the circumstances, but that is really up to the devs with any lore they see fit to add.

[fraquar]

Balgruuf was just waiting for Imperial soldiers to do the fighting for him.

[BrettM]

I've been writing philosophical essays and technical manuals, and so forth, for over forty years. Am I dishonourable because I use my "shouts" to disarm people less literate on this forum?

 

I come back around to the idea of dual standards here. The greybeards are being disingenuous...to make you feel justified.

 

Because if you want to disallow Ulfric's shout, you have to disallow magic. What if Ulfric had been a mage instead of a warrior?

 

And you have to disallow the Dragonborn from exercising his Thuum against those not similarly endowed as well. The whole red herring, and self-congratulatory excuse, that it is alright to use shouts on bandits and other folks we don't like is just that--an excuse.

 

If it's fair for the Dragonborn, it's got to be fair for anyone else who has the dedication, perseverance and strength to master the skill. From where I stand, anything else is hypocritical and self-serving.

I can't agree.

 

To begin with, my point isn't about fairness, it's about Ulfric sticking to an agreement that we can be 99.9999% sure he made. I would certainly consider your postings dishonorable if I knew that you had once signed a contract swearing that you would never use your superior writing skills and vocabulary to post anything above a sixth-grade reading level in any online forum. It doesn't matter whether I would consider such a contract wise or unwise. The fact would be that you did sign it and honor obligates you to keep your word except under specific conditions. If the other party to the contract delivered on whatever consideration they offered to you, then you are bound by it unless they committed outright fraud or agree to release you. If you later came to regret your contract and broke it unilaterally, I would assuredly hesitate to make any bargains with you myself, even if I agree that the one you broke was highly unfavorable to you.

 

Again, it isn't about the power or the fairness. Ulfric was perfectly free to use magic, swordsmanship, or any other martial skill because the teachers of such things in Tamriel generally place no strictures on the use of the skills they teach. If Ulfric had found someone else to teach him to Shout -- someone who taught it like any other skill without imposing moral judgements -- he could have used the Voice in perfect honor. (Though I would still look askance at anyone who used a sledgehammer to crack a peanut. Wretched excess is rarely an indicator of good character.)

 

As for the dragonborn, again it isn't about fairness. The Graybeards have no leverage to use against a dragonborn to get him to follow the Way, because a dragonborn can and will eventually learn to Shout without any aid from anyone at all. Refusing to train a dragonborn will not work to advance their agenda. Demanding concessions from a dragonborn in return for their training, as they would do with ordinary students, will not work to advance their agenda. The only viable option the Graybeards have is to offer a dragonborn unconditional guidance regarding the Voice in hopes that he will give consideration to their moral guidance as well. Even so, they dole out their Voice guidance parsimoniously, interspersed with many sermons. And they will withdraw their support if you offend their code too flagrantly, such as by killing their leader.

 

I also see another potential honor problem with the killing of an unarmed or disarmed opponent in a challenge match. Perhaps Nord custom does require such matches to proceed to the death, though we don't know this for sure, but killing a disarmed opponent except as the unstoppable follow-through of the disarming move strikes me as distasteful. It turns a duel into an execution, if not plain butchery. Even if not required to conform to strict honor, I would certainly give honor points to anyone who stepped back and let his opponent recover his weapon before proceeding.

 

Under Nord tradition, Ulfric did not commit a crime.

By the oldest traditions of many nations, I can keep another human being as my personal property and treat him as I please. That doesn't mean I won't be charged with a crime if I try to do that today, and citing "tradition" will not get me off the hook. Traditions change, hopefully for the better. The tradition that Ulfric wants to follow changed long, long ago.

 

The first Nord tradition regarding Shouts lasted for about 1,000 years. Every fighting force had specialists trained as Tongues and Shouts were a normal part of combat. The second Nord tradition has been followed for the last 2,000+ years (more than twice as long as the first tradition), and it forbids the use of the Voice for anything but worship, except for the dragonborn. (And even a dragonborn is not going to get much approval from others if he uses his abilities to bully, steal, and murder.) By the first tradition, Ulfric did not commit a crime. By later tradition, Ulfric arrogantly misused a power in a manner that invites the retribution of the gods.

 

Ulfric is trying to pretend the old traditions have been ignored for too long. But they were not ignored, they were changed. For a reason. Though some here don't think the reason was a good one. :) But that's a different debate. For the purposes of this debate, the Way of the Voice is the operative tradition, even if Ulfric would prefer otherwise and stamps his 'ittle foot and Shouts to get what he wants.

[BrettM]

(Urg. Bad Gateway ==> accidental double LONG post. Sorry. Mods please delete.) Edited June 8, 2012 by BrettM

[MacSuibhne]

Imperistan,

 

Well, I have not seen anything in the Lore that suggests that Ulfric signed any such agreement with the Greybeards or ever committed to enter their order...so, as I have said before, I am from Missouri--you need to show me.

 

Either there is hard evidence or it didn't happen.

 

Speculation and guesswork does not pass muster, in this regard.

 

Beyond that, if I have someone come to me and wish to apprentice with me, I might very well make him sign a contract. But an apprenticeship is not tantamount to indentured servitude or slavery. If he decides he no longer wishes to be a shoemaker, I cannot hold him nor ask anything else of him.

 

A good example...encompassing both historic and modern procedures...is a monastery or a convent. Young people enter and are trained, fed, schooled and so forth but they are not committed until they take their vows. They have never, been so committed, historically.

 

On the other hand, the Greybeards are a lot like the leaders of any religious order--they think they have the only valid vision of Truth and they believe that they should control what is said and thought and done with that knowledge.

 

Moving on...We don't know anything about how that duel went down. We don't know what Torygg did after Ulfric used the Thuum.

 

We don't even know for sure the nature of the shout. Biased hearsay suggests Ulfric tore him apart. You say he simply disarmed him. The UESP wiki Lore page says Ulfric knocked him down.

 

Did Torygg get up and renew his attack on Ulfric? Forcing Ulfric to kill him? We don't know.

 

We don't know.

 

We don't know

 

We don't know.

 

And in the absence of that knowledge the worst thing we can do is condemn Ulfric out of hand...or even in detail.

 

The best thing we can do is simply suspend judgement and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Edited June 8, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

Torygg was either a coward or a stupid boy. Either way he's unfit to rule. A true High King of Skyrim wouldn't leave his people at the mercy of Thalmor agents. Nor would a true Emperor for that matter. Frankly, I don't see where the animosity towards Ulfric comes from. He isn't a homicidal racist. You can point to his poor treatment of foreigners all you want, at the end of the day no one is forcing them to stay in Skyrim.