Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

 

You can point to his poor treatment of foreigners all you want, at the end of the day no one is forcing them to stay in Skyrim.

 

He's not even treating them poorly...he's simply ignoring them---he has other, weightier matters on his mind.

 

BTW, if I'm not mistaken there is a treaty of some sort that gives the Dunmer, at least, the right to settle anywhere in Skyrim. I'm not too clear on the details but the interesting thing is that if Ulfric were everything his detractors say he is, he would not be in anyway obliged to honor that treaty...especially since, in his own mind, he effectively nullified all such by winning the duel with the High King.

[MacSuibhne]

A disclaimere....I'm not a loremaster and Skyrim is the first game in the Elder Scrolls series I have played.

 

That said, several excerpts from the Lore...

 

...The Nords believe that their breath and voice are their vital essence, and that by uttering shouts in the tongue of the dragons, they can channel their essence to perform incredible feats.

 

Nords have been able to use the thu'um, a magical shout capable of extraordinary power, as a nearly unstoppable weapon against their adversaries as far back as the First Era.[55] They believe it was taught to their race by Kyne, and those with the talent to wield it are called "Tongues".[46][1] The ancient Greybeards, masters of the thu'um, still sit atop the 7000 steps leading to the settlement of High Hrothgar, near the summit of the Throat of the World, where they practice the Way of the Voice.[4]

 

The art of thu'um as a weapon was taboo until Tiber Septim established the Imperial College of the Voice in Markarth, dedicated to returning the Way of the Voice to warfare.

 

Ulfric gained the ability to use The Voice by training with the Greybeards, as any dedicated Nord in Skyrim can do.

 

...according to Ulfric, he challenged him to one-on-one combat in the Old Nord Way, only using the Thu'um to put him on the ground, then killing him with his sword.

[Deleted4666244User]

Title is still subjective.

[tredmillion]

Ok so, ulfric was perfectly justified to kill toryg and did so in the correct fashion, the empire took this as an afront, declared this as bad and are using it as an excuse to rid them of ulfric by marching in their armies, But ulfric's reasons for pursuing the throne are not completely certain, imo its just a grab for power and indictive of his personality, he feels cheated by the empire and wishes to take power for himself, not for the people he claims, and yes he is passionate and great at rallying his soldiers and a graet speaker and all that, but so are all the most silver tongued of figures, so overall i agree with ulfrics ideals, but dislike ulfric the man, and i dont particularly like the empire for its leadership and stagnation, BUT overall the emmpire is better because it has a long history and is cohesive and encompasses a lot of lands and figures, and therefore is the only particularly viable candidate for holding back the thalmor, so i wouldnt really say im either empire or ulfric, there are pro's and con's to both and it largely depends on your personal ideology, but if i could i would take skyrim for myself, form generous treaties with the empire, cementing a relationship with them and preserving trade and the overall strength of both sides, whilst also focusing on backroom negotiations about how to fight back against the thalmor, and a hell of a lot of other things, but i really cant be bothered to go into it too much xD

 

 

but yeah as for the main point of this thread, Yes ulfric was right to kill the high king, as indeed any jarl or other nord would be according to long standing nord traditions, and just as a sword is the native weapon of a nord, so is the thu'um and both take skill and dedication and strength to learn! but i dont think anyone can really argue that ulfric did the wrong thing or violated tradition.

 

also im not claiming to be an expert but i have read a holy shedload of TES lore so i do know what im on about :P....although im human and as such make mistakes.

Edited June 8, 2012 by tredmillion

[Relativelybest]

So, because of this thread I actually got kinda sorta interested in the civil war questline, so I went to Solitude and talked to some people.

 

According to the court mage, who incidentally claims to have been an eyewitness to the duel, Ulfric really did more or less smash Torygg to death with his thu'um, as opposed to just disarming him. (Torygg's widow additionally describes his thu'um as "something out of a nightmare", which doesn't really give the impression of a harmless disarming technique.) Now, if we are talking about word on the street, with random people saying they've heard by way of mouth that Ulfric Stormcloak shouted the High King to pieces, I would indeed be kinda sceptical about that. But when an accomplished mage who served the crown for two generations and who actually witnessed the event din person escribes it pretty much the same way, I'd be inclined to take her word for it. Otherwise I'm forced to assume she is literally lying to my face, and she did say the whole court was in attendance when it happened so unlikely she would lie about something that many people could confirm or disprove. At the most she is exaggerating.

 

As for the legitimacy of the duel, the impression I got from their story was that Ulfric technically didn't commit murder, because he actually declared a challenge first, but nobody (on the Solitude/Imperial side) are kidding themselves about his intentions being honorable. The court mage pretty much implied that if they had known that Ulfric planned on challenging Torygg, they would actually have tried to stop him before he entered the court because Torygg seriously was that hopelessly outmatched, and that Ulfric specifically waited to announce his intentions until the moment when Torygg had no choice but to accept. So, Ulfric pretty much walked in there fully intent on straight up killing the High King dead and get off scot free on a technicality. That or he called a moot to elect a new king - either way Torygg wasn't keeping his crown.

 

So yeah. I need to swing by Windhelm again and see if I can get their side of the story - I already did some quests for Ulfric but I don't recall talking to him about the duel. But given these accounts, I'm not really buying the whole "he just used the Shout to disarmed him" scenario.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Relativelybest

[tnyrmn]

^

 

The problem with the "Ulfric smashed him to death with his shout" argument is that no such shout exists in the game. The closest thing would be unrelenting force, and that hardly does any damage even at its highest level (I certainly hope that wasn't enough to kill the high king!). So I'm more inclined to believe the stories that it either disarmed or knocked the king down, not ripped him apart.

 

Admittedly, one could assume that the shouts actually experienced in game may not reflect all of the shouts that exists in the lore, but that doesn't seem right. Why would Ulfric be privy to a super powerful shout that the dragonborn can never learn?

 

 

That looks like Unrelenting Force to me (55 seconds in).

 

So I'll base my understanding of the duel on that, Ulfric knocked the king down, maybe the king dropped his weapon in the process, and swept in for the kill. I should think a worthy king of Skyrim could withstand one Fus Ro Dah.

Edited June 9, 2012 by tnyrmn

[imperistan]

Torygg had every right and choice to refuse the duel. He was High-King. He wasn't obligated to even pay attention to this insignificant Jarl's son and could have had him thrown in the dungeon. And few in Skyrim would even be concerned about it. The few that would would only end up being a single-terrorist-cell version of the Stormcloak rebellion. Causing problems but still pretty much insignificant.

 

That Torygg wasn't wise enough to see this (the wise would know that honor can be maintained even if you don't acknowledge some petty Jarl's son challenge to you. And in the position of High-King? There are so many ways to spin denying the duel so that it maintains Torygg's honor and standing in Skyrim with that kind of power its ridiculous) just further proves that he was unfit for his station.

[BrettM]

Shouts as we see them in gameplay are not necessarily Shouts as they actually work in lore. When the ancient Nord armies wanted to breach a fortress, for example, they called for a Tongue to Shout the gates down. (See Skorm Snow-Strider's Journal in Forelhost.) Tiber Septim and Ulfric are both reputed to have Shouted whole forces of defenders off the walls of cities. We can't do anything of the sort in game. We can send a giant flying through the air, but can't blow the door off a busted wardrobe. Game mechanics doesn't allow it, though such things are certainly possible in lore.

 

Nor can we actually do some of the things that are demonstrated or mentioned to us. The summons of the Graybeards was heard on all sides of the mountain -- presumably all over Skyrim -- and shook the ground. Arngeir tells us the other Graybeards do not speak because even one of their whispers might kill an untrained, unprepared human. When Einar chastises Arngeir after he refuses to send you to Paarthurnax, the ground shakes with every word out of his mouth. Alduin Shouted Helgen to pieces, knocking down stone structures and turning houses into bonfires. We can't do any such things, though we are constantly told that our thu'um is stronger than Alduin's. We can't even light a campfire with our Yol Toor Shul in gameplay, though Yol alone would probably be sufficient to do this in lore.

 

If Ulfric's Shout during the duel behaved as it does in lore rather than in gameplay, I can see how even eye-witnesses would have a mistaken impression of what had happened. It would be a very frightening and confusing experience for them, like "something out of a nightmare." They had never seen the Voice in use before and weren't expecting it, so their testimony on something outside their experience has to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

@Mac: I question that third quote of yours saying that any dedicated Nord could receive training from the Graybeards. Arngeir himself tells you that they accept very few. And that must be few indeed, since there doesn't seem to be a large pool of applicants lined up outside of High Hrothgar. It's a wonder the group didn't die off long ago.

 

I have one character who triggered an extensive dialog with Ulfric about his history with the Graybeards. I'll check and see if that dialog is still available to that character so I can get some transcripts.

[MacSuibhne]

 

@Mac: I question that third quote of yours saying that any dedicated Nord could receive training from the Graybeards. Arngeir himself tells you that they accept very few. And that must be few indeed, since there doesn't seem to be a large pool of applicants lined up outside of High Hrothgar. It's a wonder the group didn't die off long ago.

 

I have one character who triggered an extensive dialog with Ulfric about his history with the Graybeards. I'll check and see if that dialog is still available to that character so I can get some transcripts.

 

 

Well, just to be absolutely clear...I didn't make it up. It came from the UESP wiki site.

[Daggdag]

In my honest opinion, the duel between Ulfric and Torygg was legitimate. Ulfric challenged and the High-King accepted. It was an honorable kill.

 

However, my reasons for disliking Ulfric are for his biggotry and hatred for anyone who is not a Nord, and not for any lack of honor in combat.

 

it is said many times in the game that Ulfric enjoys the suffering of non-Nords, and will not lift a finger to aid non-nords in his Hold. These people are still citizens of Skyrim, even if they are not Nords. So, Ulfric's lack of caring for their suffering makes me think that, not only is he not fit to be High-King, but he is not fit to be jarl of Wiindhelm either.

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but they do not sit around laughing about dark elve children being murdered by bandits, the way, I assume based on what is said about him in the game, Ulfric would.