Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

Lot of work and research. Thank you. That clarifies a lot for me.

 

I am not convinced, however, that Ulfric was obligated to join the Greybeards. As I mentioned in another post, I think it makes more sense...just in terms of practicality and giving the nod to human nature, esp. young humans...to postulate a training period for a likely candidate with a "taking of vows" to begin any promissory obligations to the Order.

 

Anything else is tantamount to indentured servitude or slavery...and slavery of a young and unformed person, at that.

[MacSuibhne]

... Edited June 11, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

... Edited June 11, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

Sorry for multiple posts...I keep getting the dreaded "bad Gateway" message

[Deleted4666244User]

Still, Ulfric had choices, he chose the one he wanted and not what would have been best for Skyrim.... my opinion of course.

[MacSuibhne]

Still, Ulfric had choices, he chose the one he wanted and not what would have been best for Skyrim.... my opinion of course.

 

 

Of course...just as Torygg had a choice when he bowed to Thalmor pressure and nullified the agreement with Ulfric to allow Talos worship.

 

Just as Torygg did when he had Ulfric arrested.

 

Just as Torygg did when he decided to accept Ulfric's challenge...for all intents and purposes legitimizing the right of Jarls to challenge the high king for leadership of the country.

 

Just as you have a choice--whether to support three decades long Imperial collusion with the Thalmor, their avowed goal of wiping all non-Mer off the face of Tamriel, and the continued arrests, torturing and beheading (in violation of basic Imperial law and all sense of Justice) of Skyrim citizens.

 

Any of that good for Skyrim?

Edited June 11, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

Of course...just as Torygg had a choice when he bowed to Thalmor pressure and nullified the agreement with Ulfric to allow Talos worship.

 

I think you're getting Torygg confused with Jarl Igmund here. When Ulfric rescued Markarth from the Forsworn, he demanded Igmund allow Talos worship in return. When the Dominion learned of this bargain and threatened to wage war on the Reach Jarl Igmund capitulated to the Thalmor.

 

Just as Torygg did when he had Ulfric arrested.

 

Again, that was Jarl Igmund who had him arrested.

 

"When the Thalmor discovered the presence of Talos worship, they demanded the arrest of the Nord militia. Igmund was forced to arrest Ulfric and his men or risk outright war over religious conflict."

[MacSuibhne]

Of course...just as Torygg had a choice when he bowed to Thalmor pressure and nullified the agreement with Ulfric to allow Talos worship.

 

I think you're getting Torygg confused with Jarl Igmund here. When Ulfric rescued Markarth from the Forsworn, he demanded Igmund allow Talos worship in return. When the Dominion learned of this bargain and threatened to wage war on the Reach Jarl Igmund capitulated to the Thalmor.

 

Just as Torygg did when he had Ulfric arrested.

 

Again, that was Jarl Igmund who had him arrested.

 

"When the Thalmor discovered the presence of Talos worship, they demanded the arrest of the Nord militia. Igmund was forced to arrest Ulfric and his men or risk outright war over religious conflict."

 

From the UESP Lore section :

 

"The Thalmor...would not allow the Empire to keep this pledge, and eventually, the young High King of Skyrim, Torygg, acquiesced to the Imperial demand to eliminate Talos worship. Jarl Igmund stressed that the peace with the Thalmor was more important than the arrangement with Ulfric and the Nord militia. Ulfric was arrested. Ulfric was incensed, and eventually confronted the High King in Solitude. "

 

Was Torygg the HIgh King or not? Did Jarl Igmund keep it a secret fro Torygg? Did he outrank Torygg?

[Kraeten]

Was Torygg the HIgh King or not? Did Jarl Igmund keep it a secret fro Torygg? Did he outrank Torygg?

 

Torygg is of course High King, but he's done little to nothing in terms of actually using his power. For the most part, governance of each hold is left entirely to the respective Jarl. I've played through the Stormcloak quest line a couple of times now, and there is no evidence whatsoever that Torygg was the one who ordered Ulfric's arrest. The responsibility for that lies entirely on Jarl Igmund.

 

The game makes that clear in its own way too, since the Dominion wasn't threatening Torygg for the Talos worship but was instead specifically threatening the Reach. Igmund himself doesn't mention the High King in any way when he speaks of the Markarth Incident. Wiki's can be edited by anyone, so its no surprise some of the pages like the one you cited are a bit dubiously written. I myself edited the UESP skyrim wiki where it was once written that Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, and obviously that was wrong.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Kraeten

[MacSuibhne]

 

The game makes that clear in its own way too, since the Dominion wasn't threatening Torygg for the Talos worship but was instead specifically threatening the Reach. Igmund himself doesn't mention the High King in any way when he speaks of the Markarth Incident. Wiki's can be edited by anyone, so its no surprise some of the pages like the one you cited are a bit dubiously written. I myself edited the UESP skyrim wiki where it was once written that Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, and obviously that was wrong.

 

 

Ok...I could quibble but accepting what you state is fine by me. But you quoted the UESP wiki yourself in your original response. What makes one quote from the wiki more factual than the other? And just as importantly...if we cannot trust the Lore section of the wiki what can we trust? What is a definitive source in other words?