Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[imperistan]

*snip* Hammerfel was just as ravaged *snip*

 

For that to be true, Hammerfell's capitol would be sacked as well.

 

You overestimate the importance of Sentinel compared to the Imperial City in regards to the armies fighting for them. Sentinal wasn't very important to the defenders of Hammerfel, as it was mostly comprised of militia, a patchy Legion, and whatever personal armies the local leaders had, and the vast majority would have been participating in some major guerrilla warfare, so Sentinel falling would have only hurt one portion of the defenders and possibly only make things slightly harder for the other defenders, but the defenders offensive capabilities would have remained largely intact. So all in all, Sentinel wouldn't have mattered much.

 

And honestly, the same could be said for the Imperial City. Its only military value was as a symbol (all other operations it could perform could be done elsewhere. There was nothing practical that depended on it) and the fact that it happened to be where the entire Dominion army was at the time in Cyrodiil. If it weren't for that, Mede would have been better off taking Chorrol and working his way down to Anvil, Kvatch, and Skingrad. All 4 cities would have made great garrisons and launching points, and with Anvil's Harbor and the fact that the 4 cities combined would effectively cut off the Cyrodiil occupation army from pretty much the rest of the Dominion, Mede would have had a sound operation going. Then he would need to take Bravil and Leyawiin and then move on to the Imperial City. Cheydinhal could either be taken before or after, as its strategically unimportant for both armies.

[MacSuibhne]

 

Against Ulfric: he's a blatant racist and a xenophobic bigot. He doesn't care about what happens to Hammerfell or Cyrodill. He doesn't consider the Dunmer or Argonians to be people, per se (which is ironic, given that the former enslaved the latter only a few centuies prior, and now both are in the same boat). He doesn't care if the Empire dissolves, so long as his own part of the continent is taken care of. That makes him the exact opposite of Tiber Septim and those who forged the Empire, those who strove for centuries to turn the continent of Tamriel into something more than a land of petty tyrants ruling over isolated city-states while the common folk lived in fear.

 

This is mindless cant! Where is the PROOF!?

 

There is no proof. There is not one shred of evidence that Ulfric is either racist or xenophobic. Not one.

 

There is hearsay. There is petty and mean-spirited gossip. And those who would judge a man (in game or in RL) based on unfounded gossip cannot themselves be trusted to speak truth or to behave honourably.

 

Speak to Ulfric. Listen to Ulfric. Observe what Ulfric does.

 

Unfortunately, the charge of racism is the atrocitie' du jour. All the untethered balloons and tomato starts will pick up on it. It's something to get outraged about...feel justified about. People rush to congratulate themselves for spotting such wickedness. But it reminds me of a three year old who has just learned a new potty word and goes about chanting it at anyone and everyone that comes within view.

 

Worse, to spew this kind of vitriol esp. without any substantiating evidence, to foster it, to repeat it without thought or reason, ultimately vitiates the whole concept and makes mockery of real racism.

 

But that's not all...in my opinion, it slanders all the people who like Ulfric and support him for good and sound reasons--by implication anyone who supports a racist must be a racist themselves.

 

Racism is one of those democratic words--it dirties everyone it comes into contact with.

 

There's more dishonour on those who defame Ulfric...mindlessly, casually, carelessly, spitefully, even deliberately knowing it cannot be proved and is not true...than there is on Ulfric even if half of what is said behind his back had merit.

[BrettM]

I agree with you...up to a point. But you can't discount everything and that's where I see your statement leading. There is, IMO, an applicable ranking of what is dismissible out of hand and what must be...provisionally, at least...accepted as the framework around which the game was conceived and written

If I implied that everything must be discounted, then I didn't express myself well. I fully agree that there is a range of credibility of sources and that some must be considered as Truth, or as close to it as we are likely to get, or the story would have no coherence at all. A flat statement of fact, such as Sybille Stentor's description of the challenge custom, has to be accepted at face value in the absence of other sources. An interpretation of events, such as Sybille Stentor's claim that Ulfric's Shout killed Torygg, has to be examined more closely for possible biases and misunderstandings.

 

Given the political structure and history of Skyrim, I don't believe the High King has anything approaching absolute authority. There are surely limits on the actions that the jarls will accept without rising against him.

 

It isn't like a sort of parliament or the old Norse Althing. Generations may go by without a Moot being called.

 

These two statements are contradictory.

 

Either the Moot has the ability to override the High King...and involve itself in policy...or it doesn't.

I explicitly stated that the Moot does not have policy authority. I also stated that I believe there are limits, at least in practice, on the authority of a High King. How do these statements contradict each other? I did not say the Moot was the source of any such limits.

 

Just because the Moot has no ability to override the High King or involve itself in policy does not mean that the jarls must sit still for anything a High King does. The Moot's lack of authority does not mean that the High King's authority is utterly unchecked. The jarls have their own spheres of authority and perogatives, and I doubt they will tolerate a High King who flagrantly encroaches on them.

 

This doesn't mean I think the jarls would call a Moot to resolve the policy dispute, since this is not one of the permissible functions of a Moot under Nord custom. But there are other means, ranging from the challenge custom to outright civil war, by which the jarls can work against policies and orders that they consider abusive. Nords being Nords, I suspect that they'd take action against an overbearing High King much sooner than a more passive culture that is predisposed to suffer abuses as long as they remain sufferable. Nord custom and the independent spirit of the culture places some practical restrictions on the authority of the High King, whether or not there are any legal limitations. The absolute authority may or may not exist legally, but it certainly does not exist practically.

 

"The High King has made his decision, now let him enforce it," to paraphrase Andrew Jackson. "Absolute" authority is only absolute as long as the authority can convince enough others to respect and enforce it. A High King with any intelligence at all will understand this and will know the bounds that he dare not cross.

 

The Empire is now trying to bide its time and rebuild its strength before returning the favor, and every Nord killed in this stupid civil war is a Nord that's not available to give a Thalmor a proctology examination with a sword.

I keep hearing this assertion, yet I never see an explanation of how they can pull it off. After Japan surrendered to the U.S. in WWII, could they have bided their time and rebuilt their strength before resuming the war? Of course not, because U.S. troops occupied their country and are still there today, enforcing a treaty that forbids them from becoming a threat again. Cyrodiil is now occupied by the Thalmor. How exactly are they supposed to rebuild their strength under those conditions?

 

The WCG demanded the disbanding of the Blades, part of the Empire's strength, and the Thalmor came in and hunted them down, as well as beginning the hunting of Talos worshippers in Cyrodiil. I have no doubt that justiciars are still there, along with assorted spies calling themselves ambassadors, observers, and advisors. They have the "right" to accuse anyone they please and haul them away for interrogation and execution, apparently without needing to satisfy anyone that their accusation has any merit. Do you believe they won't use this power against anyone they see as a rising threat, manufacturing evidence if they must, to help keep the Empire weak? Do you believe the Thalmor representatives will hesitate to scream "treaty violation" about any imperial action that worries them, forcing the Emperor to back down because of his fear of continued war?

 

The Thalmor encouraged the civil war in Skyrim to further reduce the Empire's strength. The Thalmor wish that conflict to continue, but, if either side wins, do you think the Thalmor will just give up and go home? Or do they have other operations to prevent the Empire from rebuilding militarily, and contingency plans for either an Imperial or a Stormcloak victory? I know which way I'd bet!

 

No one who brings up the "strength in unity" or "rebuilding strength" assertions has yet answered these points with any explanation of how the Empire can overcome the disadvantages of its current position. If no one can explain how the Empire can rebuild strength under these conditions, then the claim that they will fails the laugh test. For my money, they can't. The Empire is doomed, and Skyrim's only choice is to go down with them or abandon the sinking ship and try for a better outcome.

[Kraeten]

You overestimate the importance of Sentinel compared to the Imperial City in regards to the armies fighting for them.

 

Hm, no. Sentinel is an economic powerhouse for Hammerfell.

 

Cyrodiil is now occupied by the Thalmor. How exactly are they supposed to rebuild their strength under those conditions?

 

Cyrodiil has a significant presence of the Thalmor from what we're led to believe yes, but that isn't the equivalent of being occupied by an army. Nor can the Thalmor magically countermand the Emperor's command. If he should decide to build up forces, there's little they could do about it besides attempt to stall him. And even then, they could not take any actions that would be too overt for fear the Emperor will nullify the treaty abruptly thus making every Thalmor agent suddenly fair game for the Legion.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Kraeten

[MacSuibhne]

 

Just because the Moot has no ability to override the High King or involve itself in policy does not mean that the jarls must sit still for anything a High King does. The Moot's lack of authority does not mean that the High King's authority is utterly unchecked. The jarls have their own spheres of authority and perogatives, and I doubt they will tolerate a High King who flagrantly encroaches on them.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure...history (including Norse history) is replete with instances of Good King Olaf being succeeded by Mad King Hrolf. The Jarls never do anything about it...except perhaps when one of them gets up enough gumption to challenge the King.

 

So if the Jarls don't have any say in policy and will not or cannot revoke a lawful order by the King they effectively don't have any way to supersede the High King's rulings.

 

IOW, if Torygg says it is legal for a Jarl to challenge the King to a duel, it is...for all intents and purposes, no matter how finely you mince the garlic...legal.

 

That's the way it works in these kinds of societies--you don't question the King unless you're prepared to challenge him for leadership. Ouroboros.

 

All the rest of what you posted I pretty much agree with...I esp. admired the analogy to post war Japan.

Edited June 14, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Archone]

 

Against Ulfric: he's a blatant racist and a xenophobic bigot. He doesn't care about what happens to Hammerfell or Cyrodill. He doesn't consider the Dunmer or Argonians to be people, per se (which is ironic, given that the former enslaved the latter only a few centuies prior, and now both are in the same boat). He doesn't care if the Empire dissolves, so long as his own part of the continent is taken care of. That makes him the exact opposite of Tiber Septim and those who forged the Empire, those who strove for centuries to turn the continent of Tamriel into something more than a land of petty tyrants ruling over isolated city-states while the common folk lived in fear.

 

This is mindless cant! Where is the PROOF!?

 

There is no proof. There is not one shred of evidence that Ulfric is either racist or xenophobic. Not one.

 

There is hearsay. There is petty and mean-spirited gossip. And those who would judge a man (in game or in RL) based on unfounded gossip cannot themselves be trusted to speak truth or to behave honourably.

 

There is the encounter the first time you enter Solitude and discover that some Nords are bullying and threatening Dunmer with the tacit permission of their Jarl. There is the specific testimony by the Dunmer and Argonians that the Dunmer are confined to the slum area of the city, and the Argonians are forbidden to even live within the protection of the city walls. There are Nords who openly complain about Ulfric's open statement of "Skyrim for the Nords." There is Ulfric himself saying "Skyrim must be for the Nords."

 

I have listened to Ulfric, and to those around him, and seen the evidence for myself. As has anyone who has played the game and spent any amount of time in Solitude (which is a good idea anyway, given the proximity of shops and such for income generation for anyone with a decent smithing and/or alchemy skill).

[imperistan]

You overestimate the importance of Sentinel compared to the Imperial City in regards to the armies fighting for them.

 

Hm, no. Sentinel is an economic powerhouse for Hammerfell.

 

Which wouldn't have mattered as much in war time. Particularly when the entire south (where the actual economy of Hammerfel is centered mind you) was already being ravaged.

 

There is the encounter the first time you enter Solitude and discover that some Nords are bullying and threatening Dunmer with the tacit permission of their Jarl.

 

A couple of insignificant drunken beggars are hardly representative of the Jarl's position.

 

There is the specific testimony by the Dunmer and Argonians that the Dunmer are confined to the slum area of the city, and the Argonians are forbidden to even live within the protection of the city walls

 

Argonians yes (though its not like this has been any different for them for a thousand years anyway), but Dunmer no. The Dunmer live in a slum because they're too lazy to turn it into something better. And honestly, they're lucky to even have a slum. Given how the Dunmer actually are and the general animosity between the Dunmer and the Nords, they're extremely lucky Ulfric doesn't have every single one of them put to the block.

 

The Dunmer would be no different than the Nords if the roles were reversed, so to pity them is illogical. (or are people so concerned for the Dunmer's well being only because of Morrowind, the game? I wouldn't be surprised)

 

And I'll say it again, it isn't Ulfric's obligation to be the Martin Luther King Jr of his time and world. The entire argument of those who cry racist hinge on ideals present in our own world and in our own modern era, not in the ideals present in Tamriel during its era, which is still just barely equivalent to our Dark/Middle ages. To scrutinize Ulfric for not being a cultural revolutionary (when no such people and no such idea exist in his world (except perhaps in the back of certain person's minds who aren't racist)) is utterly stupid.

 

"Skyrim must be for the Nords."

 

Skyrim is the Nord's home. Its no different than saying that England is for the English, France for the French. Anyone would be laughed at if they went and said "England is for the French!" or "France is for the Germans!".

[MacSuibhne]

 

There is the encounter the first time you enter Solitude and discover that some Nords are bullying and threatening Dunmer with the tacit permission of their Jarl. There is the specific testimony by the Dunmer and Argonians that the Dunmer are confined to the slum area of the city, and the Argonians are forbidden to even live within the protection of the city walls. There are Nords who openly complain about Ulfric's open statement of "Skyrim for the Nords." There is Ulfric himself saying "Skyrim must be for the Nords."

 

 

 

In the first place Solitude is domain of Jarl Elisif--Torygg's wife. Windhelm is where Ulfric is the Jarl. If you've run across unseemly behaviour in Solitude, you can lay it at the feet of Elisif and the Empire.

 

In the second place...everything you cite is hearsay from biased individuals. For every one of those citations there is another...such as Niryane in the marketplace, and the dark elf farmer on the way to Windhelm to join the Stromcloaks who says" Ulfric has the right of it," to the farmer outside of Windhelm who employs a Nord field hand...that directly contradicts the "woe is me" attitude or takes a diametrically opposing point of view.

 

It's all hearsay, it's all biased and it is not...repeat NOT...proof that Ulfric is a racist.

 

In the third place, and related, none of that relates to Ulfirc, himself. And despite my listening to Ulfric and my repeated calls for a cite to the contrary on this and other forums you are the first person who claims that Ulfric himself says "Skyrim is for the Nords." I would appreciate it if you would be more specific as to where he says that...so that I can go and hear it for myself, in context.

 

And even if it were true...it is still not evidence of racism. It may be proof positive of nationalism but that is a very different thing.

 

Finally, if you have been following this conversation and not just trolling you could have referenced my (recent) post #292 in this thread to see hard, verifiable, reasons why the Dunmer live in a slum.

 

If you're at all interested, that is.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Archone]

 

There is the encounter the first time you enter Solitude and discover that some Nords are bullying and threatening Dunmer with the tacit permission of their Jarl. There is the specific testimony by the Dunmer and Argonians that the Dunmer are confined to the slum area of the city, and the Argonians are forbidden to even live within the protection of the city walls. There are Nords who openly complain about Ulfric's open statement of "Skyrim for the Nords." There is Ulfric himself saying "Skyrim must be for the Nords."

 

 

 

In the first place Solitude is domain of Jarl Elisif--Torygg's wife. Windhelm is where Ulfric is the Jarl. If you've run across unseemly behaviour in Solitude, you can lay it at the feet of Elisif and the Empire.

 

In the second place...everything you cite is hearsay from biased individuals. For every one of those citations there is another...such as Niryane in the marketplace, and the dark elf farmer on the way to Windhelm to join the Stromcloaks who says" Ulfric has the right of it," to the farmer outside of Windhelm who employs a Nord field hand...that directly contradicts the "woe is me" attitude or takes a diametrically opposing point of view.

 

It's all hearsay, it's all biased and it is not...repeat NOT...proof that Ulfric is a racist.

 

In the third place, and related, none of that relates to Ulfirc, himself. And despite my listening to Ulfric and my repeated calls for a cite to the contrary on this and other forums you are the first person who claims that Ulfric himself says "Skyrim is for the Nords." I would appreciate it if you would be more specific as to where he says that...so that I can go and hear it for myself, in context.

 

And even if it were true...it is still not evidence of racism. It may be proof positive of nationalism but that is a very different thing.

 

Finally, if you have been following this conversation and not just trolling you could have referenced my (recent) post #292 in this thread to see hard, verifiable, reasons why the Dunmer live in a slum.

 

If you're at all interested, that is.

 

 

In the first place, I apologize - I literally remembered that Windhelm was Ulfric's home (because I was looking at the map while playing) and was about to edit my post when I noticed you'd already replied.

 

In the second place, it's not heresy. It's you walking into Windhelm and (and I'm using http://www.uesp.net/wiki to be sure of the names this time around) and seeing Angrenor Once-Honored and Rolff Stone-Fist threatening a Dunmer woman and accusing her of being an Imperial spy. Rolff openly believes that all the Dunmer are indeed Imperial spies. His brother Galmar Stone-Fist is Ulfric's second in command and makes no attempt to hide his disdain for all non-Nords. Brunwulf Free-Winter not only complains that Ulfric can't be bothered to help Khajit caravans being raided or non Nord settlements being attacked (which is a blatant copy of the complaints rendered by inner city denizens against modern police departments), but backs it up by hiring the Dragonborn to protect the non-Nords, paying for it out of his own pocket. I won't list any spoilers here, but the Dunmer and Argonians would rather he be in charge. Of the Argonians, only Shahvee maintains a cheery attitude about her situation - and even in her case it's her trying to make the best of her plight.

 

In the third place, I cannot find any particular instances of him saying "Skyrim for the Nords," and concede that point. However, Ulfric chooses to associate with known bigots who make no attempt to hide their bigotry. You can judge a man by the company they keep. I myself have confronted friends and relatives (including my own mother!) when they make homophobic or racist statements. I stand up for others who are not like me, because it is the right thing to do - as most people ought to do. And when you are the ruler and governing authority, you have a responsibility to say, "you will not disrespect subjects under my rule solely on the basis of their ancestry and lineage," unless you share such beliefs and are thereby allowing it to become official practice.

 

Also, "nationalism" and "racism" are two differant things, yes. If Ulfric were to openly call on all who dwelt within his lands to fight as free people of Skyrim, he would be unquestionably patriotic and a nationalist. However, by limiting his definition of true sons of Skyrim to those whose lineage extends back to the Five Hundred, he excludes all Bretons, Argonians, Dunmer, Cyrodils, Redguard, Orcs, and Khajit who may have been born in Skyrim and never known a homeland beyond the chill northern parts of Tamriel.

 

As for your previous post, you are referencing what happened in Morrowind, in the Dunmer's own lands and in a time centuries before the setting of Skyrim. The Dunmer were openly established as being xenophobic and clannish in that game, yes. To varying extents depending on what House you were dealing with, and whether they lived in a city or dwelt on the plains. But that was literally another time and place. That would be like me harboring a grudge against all of Russia because the Czars subjected my ancestors to state sponsored pogroms. The Romanoffs are dead and even the communist regime that replaced them has fallen. And Morrowind has been all but destroyed and the Dunmer who have settled in Skyrim have been assimilating into the culture far more successfully in places other than Windhelm, where they are treated with more equity than under Ulfric.

 

Lastly, please do not accuse me of trolling just because I disagree with you. It is possible for someone to disagree with your opinions and still be intelligent, rational, and informed. And casually insulting people during debates is not a good way to encourage them to convert to your stance on the subject.

[fraquar]

Actions.

 

If Ulfric is a racist then why does he have an elf running a stall in HIS marketplace and owning property in HIS city?

 

If he's half the racist people on here claim, that simply wouldn't happen - period.