Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[darkdill]

Ulfric definitely has his good and bad points, I'll say that now.

 

But when it comes right down to it for me, I like Ulfric a helluva lot more than I like Tullius. After all, Ulfric's not the one kissing the Thalmor's asses. He'd be cutting through them instead. http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif

[Archone]

If Ulfric is a racist then why does he have an elf running a stall in HIS marketplace and owning property in HIS city?

 

There are two Dunmer with stalls in the marketplace. Niranye makes no attempt to deny that she has suffered persecution and had to stoop to kissing a lot of gluteal muscles in order to achieve the prosperity she now has. Aval Atheron sells... produce, which makes him less noticeable than Niranye. He openly admires Brunwulf for being a champion for his oppressed people, and his sister is the woman you see being harassed the first time you enter the city.

 

From a purely logical perspective, just becuse Ulfric is prejudiced against the Dunmer (and Argonians and Khajit and etc) doesn't mean he minds them being a part of the economy. After all, a strong economy means enhanced revenue. Enhanced revenue means more funding for the war effort. That's why Jews were allowed to live in Europe despite the blatant anti-semitism of the European rulers (one of the "crimes" attributed to Napoleon was that he openly proclaimed that Jews in his empire would be treated as the equal of any other French citizen). That doesn't mean they weren't the subject of oppressive laws, official contempt, and Propaganda such as...

 

http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/grimm/bl-grimm-jew.htm

 

I do have to agree, though. Ulfric IS far more attractive as a leader and as a man. The Stormcloaks serve Ulfric, specifically Ulfric, because he is a charismatic and noble hero in spite of his flaws. The Imperials serve...the Empire, and Tullius is simply a particular example of an Imperial General who is just doing his job and isn't particularly passionate about it beyond his general sense of loyalty to his Empire. I also believe that instead of trying to have Ulfric executed, Tullius ought to have dragged him off in private and told him, "if you want to beat the Thalmor, then stop killing Imperials. Now I'm going to walk away, and you're going to break out of those shackles that I could have sworn were locked. Then you're going to head back to Whiterun and you're going to start building up your forces. You're going to prepare. And when we're ready, you're going to march...and we're ALL going to get rid of these Thalmor together. And I'll lay an offering at Talos' shrine when we do. Got it? Good."

Edited June 15, 2012 by Archone

[MacSuibhne]

...

 

I'm not accusing you of trolling because you disagree with me, I'm wondering if you're trolling...maybe kibitzing is a better word...because you don't seem to have read anything that has gone before. And little enough of what is even current.

 

In all that you cite, nothing can be attributed directly to Ulfric. That you have decided he is a racist because of who he "associates" with or because people not even associated with him who are living in Windhelm behave badly, strikes to the very heart of my objections--it slanders all the people...in the real world as well...who like Ulfric and support him for good and sound reasons. By implication anyone who supports a racist must be a racist themselves. Guilt by association.

 

And it is hear-say...hear-say being opinion (in these cases biased opinion) unsubstantiated by facts. I challenge you to cite one law, one writ, one statute, one decree, one off-hand remark that is made or directly supported by Ulfric, the effect of which is to persecute, harass, or even actively demean any other race. You can't do it.

 

If your hear-say is valid, my hear-say, combined with facts and the actual behaviour of Ulfric himself, trumps it all. But bottom line, when you wade through all the hear-say from both sides, it's tit-for-tat, she said/he said...none of it is proof.

 

We can only judge...we ought only judge...a man by his words and deeds unless verifiable empirical evidence surfaces to give the lie to them. There simply is no instance where Ulfric's words or actions even hint at him being a racist.

 

On the other hand, there is evidence to suggest that Ulfric is innocent of these vitriolic inventions...

 

While Ulfric may not be King of Skyrim (some say he is the rightful King) he is, for good or ill, at this point in time, effectively a law unto himself, especially in his own realm. That, I think everyone can agree on.

 

So...The Decree of Monument, issued following the Red Year 150 years ago, by all the Jarls of Skyrim (Nords mostly), gives the Dunmer the right to settle wherever they want in Skyrim "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire..."

 

If Ulfric was racist...in any measure...he would simply throw the Dunmer out of Windhelm. Everything, from the fact that they don't pay taxes, to their racial make-up, to the probability that they harbor Thalmor spies, would suggest that racist or not, the prudent action is to get rid of them. But he doesn't. He's not obligated to abide by that agreement, but he nevertheless honours it.

 

An open mind might feel compelled to wonder why.

 

That right there, goes farther towards meeting the rightfully high standard needed to condemn, slander, and vilify a person than all the off-hand remarks, petty gossip, and whining made by disaffected NPC's on both sides.

 

In passing, I might point out that it is almost the single most distinguishing characteristic of Imperial apologists to cite hearsay and unsubstantiated opinion as reason to justify their choices. It is nothing new. Strangely enough, despite the terms of contention being set by such behaviour, most Stormcloak defenders tend to rely upon...indeed, insist upon...sources from the Lore or Skyrim history or actual verifiable witnessed events.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

Which wouldn't have mattered as much in war time.

 

You really have no room to argue that. The South of Hammerfell would be under siege, leaving the cities to be found there under a state of alert meaning the ability to farm etc would certainly be hampered. A wealthy northern city like Sentinel would be under far less strain, and thus able to support the front lines. That support would be invaluable, especially when we take into consideration how far the distance between cities stretches the further north you go.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Kraeten

[Archone]

...

 

 

In all that you cite, nothing can be attributed directly to Ulfric. That you have decided he is a racist because of who he "associates" with or because people not even associated with him who are living in Windhelm behave badly, strikes to the very heart of my objections--it slanders all the people...in the real world as well...who like Ulfric and support him for good and sound reasons. By implication anyone who supports a racist must be a racist themselves. Guilt by association.

 

If Ulfric was racist...in any measure...he would simply throw the Dunmer out of Windhelm. Everything, from the fact that they don't pay taxes, to their racial make-up, to the probability that they harbor Thalmor spies, would suggest that racist or not, the prudent action is to get rid of them. But he doesn't. He's not obligated to abide by that agreement, but he nevertheless honours it.

 

 

Okay, on the matter of hearsay:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay?s=t

 

It is not hearsay because hearsay would be, "Rolff said that Arwen said that Ulfric is a big mean racist jerk." But the actual things being said are rather more substantive than that. We're hearing things like "Ulfric won't let us live inside the city walls," and "Ulfric won't let us live outside the Grey Quarter." Also, "Ulfric won't do anything when Khajit caravans are raided," and "Ulfric doesn't do a thing when his friends say racist things and then threaten women in the streets for the crime of not being Nords." And of course, "Ulfric makes us pay higher taxes than regular Nords do."

 

Where did you hear that the Dunmer don't pay taxes? Of course they pay taxes. It has long been a standard practice for societies (especially medieval societies that wished to punish certain groups for not being the right race/religion/social background) to levy additional "not approved" taxes, such as the Jizya that Islamic nations levied upon nonmuslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya ). Or Thalmor spies... the Thalmor are Altmer, not Dunmer. They're so racist and prejudiced that even the other Altmer can't stand them. As far as the Thalmor are concerned, the Dunmer are almost as bad as the Nords, and worse than the Bosmer.

 

Perhaps another analogy might be made. George Wallace.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace

 

Wallace never actually said, "I want to see black people being beaten and killed." He spoke of preserving the southern way of life, of protecting innocent white folks, of keeping the streets clean and safe. But his words enflamed the ones who actually committed the violence, and his governance made it clear that what was being done was an unofficial but undeniable extension of his stated policies. The main reason we don't see more of this sort of thing with Ulfric is that he's got bigger fish to fry. The Thalmor. Let's face it, all the problems in Skyrim (aside from that pesky Alduin... and let's face it, once you get to where a bunch of farmers and guards are killing dragons while the Dovahkin looks on in bemusement, that's more pest control than "end of the world" stuff) seem to come from... the Thalmor. I strongly suspect the next game in the series will focus on fighting them as the main storyline.

[MacSuibhne]

From the

Oxford English Dictionary[/b] © 2008 Oxford University Press']:

 

hearsay/ˈhɪəseɪ/

▶noun

 

1 information which cannot be adequately substantiated; rumour.

 

2 Law the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law: hearsay evidence.

 

Note that the first definition (generally considered the most pertinent usage) is precisely the way I used the word...and note the source (often considered the premier source).

 

Again you don't seem to be reading the posts you are responding to...like painting everyone in sight with spurious, even fatuous charges of racism, it's disrespectful.

 

Taxes: What part of "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation..." is so hard to understand?

 

I don't know whether we can verify this or not...I have searched and The Decree of Monument is the closest I come. Nevertheless, it is better than speculation and fantasy. It is my understanding that the Dunmer do not pay taxes, are not asked to swear allegiance to Ulfric or the Stormcloak rebellion, nor are they tasked with any other civic duty. Merchants may pay tariffs but the average Dunmer citizen has no financial obligations to Windhelm, Eastmarch, Skyrim, nor Ulfric...yet enjoy the basic benefits of full citizenship, such as refuge from the storm, protection from bandits, dragons, etc., even presumably fire insurance.

 

The Wallace cite: The better analogy among all the, pardon me, somewhat attenuated examples is George Washington and the American Stormcloak Rebellion. Ulfric and Skyrim want to be Independent.They have suffered under the yoke of Thalmor/Imperial tyranny and oppression for thirty years with no sign that the Empire is either capable nor interested in changing things. Ulfric believes "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

 

I suspect that part of the problem...no, maybe the central problem...with the charges of racism as well as the examples invoked, is that some people want so desperately to conflate contemporary society with the society we find in Skyrim that Skyrim has become a surrogate for the political and cultural divide in this country.

 

It's not about what Ulfric does or says...because, objectively, there is nothing but hearsay to back charges of racism...it's about that very contemporary, politically incorrect sin of being indifferent or preoccupied--not being single-mindedly proactive. Doing what you (a very specific "you") think he should do.

 

In the final analysis and in the absence of hard credible empirical evidence, all of this slander and nothing short. It's racism by association and, in Ulfric's case, guilt by omission. And in some ways, worse, it's nothing if not "groupthink."

 

Much of what is being said, really has no bearing on Skyrim...or Ulfric, either, for that matter...but more properly belongs at an Occupy ____Street protest (fill in the blank). And I repeat, for every "they won't let me do this" remark there is another "if you work hard, you'll prosper".

 

It's fine if you (generic "you) want to view and play the game that way. But not everyone else does. Games are for diversion and entertainment.

 

The best you can say in that regard is that Bethesda knowingly, deliberately presents the player with some ethical conundrums--do you (generic "you") choose the easy way out and listen to hearsay and gossip and ride the emotions that suffuse your daily real life, and those that are au currant in contemporary society (follow the flock); or do you take a more studied and objective approach? Relying, as much as possible, only on what is verifiable?

 

Do you side with the forces of independence and aspiration and resistance to Thalmor and Imperial oppression; or do you "go along to get along". Peace at any price.

 

Do you countenance appeasement and equivocation and torture and betrayal; or will you muster the resolve and determination to be free of all such?

 

Do you dismiss and deny (or put on an ignore list) the expressed long term Thalmor objectives--to wipe all non-mer from the face of Tamriel--so that you can cling to your prerogatives and sinecures and the illusion of peace...nevermind the hardships, maybe even insurmountable difficulties you will pass onto your children? Or after thirty years of weasel-words and excuses and disingenuous collusion, are you finally ready to pick up the burden that history and the gods have asked you to shoulder and do what needs to be done...what needed to be done long ago?

 

Bethesda has presented you with choices, to the extent that they reflect the kinds of choices human beings have always faced...since time-out-of-mind...they resonate with us in the here and now.

 

But they are NOT red state blue state choices in an election year.

 

And I, for one, dislike/resent all such comparisons/associations if only because they are too, too facile...and boring.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

TBH, I don't see anywhere they could live within the city proper, all the houses are occupied and likely were long before the migration. They seem to be living in the only place in the city where they can.

 

There is only 1 house that is vacant outside of the Grey Quarter and that is only just recently vacated because of murder. Not to mention it ends up becoming the Thane's house.

 

That complaint has to be taken at face value, it's simply not possible and they should know that already - unless of course they are either blind or think they should be evicting residents to promote their own cause......

Edited June 15, 2012 by fraquar

[MacSuibhne]

TBH, I don't see anywhere they could live within the city proper, all the houses are occupied and likely were long before the migration. They seem to be living in the only place in the city where they can.

 

There is only 1 house that is vacant outside of the Grey Quarter and that is only just recently vacated because of murder. Not to mention it ends up becoming the Thane's house.

 

That complaint has to be taken at face value, it's simply not possible and they should know that already - unless of course they are either blind or think they should be evicting residents to promote their own cause......

 

 

Maybe just as telling...if I have the timeline correct...they've been there for near onto 150 years. Since the Red Year.

 

The Lore says they're clannish, but....!!

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

You'd think if they were there that long and things didn't change they'd simply move on to another city. Seriously, persecuted people don't normally have the luxury of having other places to move to like the Dunmer and Argonians do in Skyrim - unless of course we just don't see what places like Whiterun would do with a mass migration of Dunmer/Argonians moving in.

[Relativelybest]

There are two Dunmer with stalls in the marketplace. Niranye makes no attempt to deny that she has suffered persecution and had to stoop to kissing a lot of gluteal muscles in order to achieve the prosperity she now has.

 

Actually, Niranye is an Altmer - note the eye color. She just looks kinda grey-skinned because she tends to stand in a shadow. I mistook her for a Dunmer as well at first.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Relativelybest