Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[BrettM]

Mac, Imperistan, and others have eloquently addressed the charges of racism against Ulfric many times, so there is no point in my rehashing their arguments. I do not find the charges to be credible or supported, and I do NOT say this as an Ulfric lover. (I am definitely not an Ulfric lover, though I am not an Ulfric hater, either. I support the Stormcloak cause, but I have trust issues where Ulfric is concerned, and I will have a wary eye on him if any future DLC brings the rebellion back to the forefront of the story. One must learn to separate the cause from the people involved with it, because no cause is so just and pure that it will not attract any unsavory people in support of it.)

 

There are a couple of things I would like to add, however.

 

If you support the Empire, go talk to Brunwulf after he takes the throne of Windhelm. Guess what? The Argonians are still not allowed into the city and there are no plans to do anything for the Gray Quarter. Yet nobody calls Brunwulf a racist despite his maintaining exactly the same policies that Ulfric is being criticized for following. Listening to the Argonians talk about how much better things are under Brunwulf would make me laugh if it wasn't so sad, seeing as their situation hasn't changed a bit in reality. Only their perception of it has been improved.

 

As for Galmar expressing disdain for non-Nords, he expresses the same disdain for many Nords as well. His criterion for disdain is not based on race but on the committment of the individual to the cause of freedom for Skyrim. It is unreasonable to call Galmar a racist based on the actions of his brother Rolff. We have the evidence of our own eyes and ears that Rolff is bigoted, but no such evidence for Galmar.

 

The closest thing I've ever heard Ulfric say to "Skyrim is for the Nords" is "Skyrim should be ruled by the Nords". But those two phrases are not equivalent, especially when you consider the context. The second is a statement of a political view that favors local rule over rule by a remote Emperor who does not solicit input from his subjects, not a statement of Nordic superiority over other races. It's a rallying cry or slogan expressing the fundamental principle of the cause. Should we really expect anyone in Tamriel, no matter how open minded, to say something like "Skyrim should be ruled by its indigenous and naturalized citizens, regardless of their race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation," to avoid charges of bigotry? By the time you shouted that out on the battlefield, the war would be over.

 

Cyrodiil has a significant presence of the Thalmor from what we're led to believe yes, but that isn't the equivalent of being occupied by an army. Nor can the Thalmor magically countermand the Emperor's command. If he should decide to build up forces, there's little they could do about it besides attempt to stall him. And even then, they could not take any actions that would be too overt for fear the Emperor will nullify the treaty abruptly thus making every Thalmor agent suddenly fair game for the Legion.

The explanation of how the Empire can rebuild is that the Thalmor can't do anything effective to prevent it? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.

 

How much of an army do they need in Cyrodiil, given its weak condition? They certainly had enough to root the Blades out of strongholds like Cloud Ruler Temple and exterminate them. Controlling a defeated enemy does not take as many troops as it took to defeat him in the first place.

 

"The Empire exists because we allow it to exist." Does that sound like the Thalmor fear the nullification of the treaty? They believe, or have created the illusion, that they have the greater strength. The Emperor believes it as well, or he wouldn't have signed the Concordat in the first place. Since the strength has not yet been rebuilt, is he really going to suddenly grow a pair and throw the WGC out the window? He would then be right back where he was the day he signed it, at best. The Emperor backed down when he signed the treaty. He backed down again when the Thalmor screamed "violation" regarding the Markarth deal. The Thalmor don't seem to have any reason to think he won't keep backing down when put to the test. They don't need the power to countermand the Emperor's command, just the power to get him to reverse himself. And they demonstrably have that power.

 

But, let's suppose that the Thalmor do want to avoid making provocative demands like "stop recruiting so many soldiers." To say that their only recourse is a stalling game is to trivialize their capabilities.

 

The Thalmor have had decades now to spread their spies throughout Cyrodiil. In addition, they have surely built a network of informants, collaborators, and assassins. Would they do any less of this in Cyrodiil than we know they have done in Skyrim? Is there some reason to doubt that they have already recruited those with high positions in the government? Is there some reason to doubt that they have extensive files of compromising information on others that can be used at need to blackmail them into cooperation? Is there some reason to doubt that they can just accuse someone of Talos worship and haul them away if their actions become worrisome to the Thalmor? Is there some reason to doubt that they would resort to assassination if necessary to take out officers and instructors that seemed too competent, depriving the Legions of effective leadership and proper recruit training? All of that is a bit much to lump together and categorize as "stalling".

 

Yet, let us further suppose that the Thalmor "stalling" doesn't work and the Empire rebuilds a substantial force. Could the Empire do this in complete secrecy given the Thalmor intelligence network? I highly doubt it. The Thalmor would know troop numbers, dispositions, training levels, etc. and be able to plan counter moves against anything the Empire might do. Meanwhile the Empire would have no equivalent intelligence on the AD, unless you think the new Penitus Oculatus is up to the same standards of espionage and covert operations that the Blades had developed over centuries. (Personally, the PO doesn't impress me, and even the Blades proved to be no match for the Thalmor, as was demonstrated on the 30th of Frostfall.) The Empire is blind and the Thalmor have more than one eye.

 

It just doesn't wash to say that the Thalmor can do little to prevent or counter any rebuilding of strength in the Empire. They can do a great deal, and any explanation of how the Empire will someday be able to beat the Dominion has to address the problems I've outlined above, not just dismiss the problems as being of no consequence.

[BrettM]

Arrgh. Bad Gateway needs an oiling or something. Edited June 15, 2012 by BrettM

[fraquar]

Well put BrettM.

[Archone]

 

hearsay/ˈhɪəseɪ/

▶noun

 

1 information which cannot be adequately substantiated; rumour.

 

2 Law the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law: hearsay evidence.

 

Note that the first definition (generally considered the most pertinent usage) is precisely the way I used the word...and note the source (often considered the premier source).

 

It's not unsubstantiated when the characters making the statements are providing examples and evidence. Like... threatening Dunmer right in front of the Dovahkin. Or openly stating, "this is what happened to me." When a person lays a criminal charge against another person, the courts do not dismiss "he did this to me" as mere hearsay. They might require evidence, but the differance between rumor/hearsay and direct testimony is one of degree; if you're saying what you yourself have experienced, it's not hearsay.

 

Again you don't seem to be reading the posts you are responding to...like painting everyone in sight with spurious, even fatuous charges of racism, it's disrespectful.

I'm not painting everyone with charges of racism. I'm stating that one specific character is being shown as racist by virtue of his association with proudly racist friends.

 

I don't know whether we can verify this or not...I have searched and The Decree of Monument is the closest I come. Nevertheless, it is better than speculation and fantasy. It is my understanding that the Dunmer do not pay taxes, are not asked to swear allegiance to Ulfric or the Stormcloak rebellion, nor are they tasked with any other civic duty. Merchants may pay tariffs but the average Dunmer citizen has no financial obligations to Windhelm, Eastmarch, Skyrim, nor Ulfric...yet enjoy the basic benefits of full citizenship, such as refuge from the storm, protection from bandits, dragons, etc., even presumably fire insurance.

 

Well, considering that you not only have to pay a rather hefty sum to buy a house, but also perform sufficient services for the community that a Jarl may be assured that you intend to settle down and reside as a permanent subject of Skyrim, I'd say taxation is likely enough. Besides... it's a government. Governments will tax whatever they can. That's a given. If anything, Imperial and Nord taxation is far less than that of feudal societies (Which explains why the communities in Skyrim are far wealthier than serfs once were).

 

The Wallace cite: The better analogy among all the, pardon me, somewhat attenuated examples is George Washington and the American Stormcloak Rebellion.

 

I wasn't referring to Wallace in terms of his political views (though you make an excellent comparism; the colonies were populated at the time by both Revolutionaries and Loyalists and both sides offered many compelling arguments for and against their positions), but in terms of his words and actions. Wallace spoke of keeping the streets safe, while thugs in white hooded robes burned down churches and murdered innocent people. As the legendary Chicago collumnist Mike Royko put it, "Wallace provided a veneer of respectability to the haters. He made the struggle for civil rights longer and bloodier than it had to be."

 

I suspect that part of the problem...no, maybe the central problem...with the charges of racism as well as the examples invoked, is that some people want so desperately to conflate contemporary society with the society we find in Skyrim that Skyrim has become a surrogate for the political and cultural divide in this country.

 

Not really. I just think that Ulfric is an interesting and compelling character with flaws and virtues. In my first playthrough of the game I controlled an Ork smith (mastery of smithing, enchanting, two handed, and heavy weapons) Dovahkin who became a Stormcloak and won Ulfric's war for him. I listened to his speeches and admired him... but I've also listened to the other side as well.

 

It's not about what Ulfric does or says...

 

Technically, it is. In previous posts you stated that only Ulfric's words and actions could prove/disprove whether or not he was prejudiced against non Nords. And when the Jarl confines certain races to a ghetto and won't let others even live inside the walls to protect them against a dragon or a bandit raid, that's pretty damning.

 

The best you can say in that regard is that Bethesda knowingly, deliberately presents the player with some ethical conundrums

 

Yes. Yes they did. I admire them for that. They created a story arc in which the player can choose which side of a civil war to support, and deliberately made both sides into realistically portrayed factions, neither of which could be called "good" or "evil." Nor was this the only part in the game where moral ambiguity was presented. They are to be commended for their storytelling.

 

I should note that your own beliefs in the matter are pretty blatant. And you're still being rather condescending in your responses. And I'm not the one who has drawn comparisms between RL politics in one specific nation on this planet with the civil war story arc in a game we both enjoy. Though you are doing a good job of demonstrating the primary problem with RL politics. Because I disagree with you, you are starting with the assumption that I am stupid, prejudiced, and/or uninformed. Meanwhile, I have provided links, presented ingame facts, and worked to prove my case. Here's some more. You are the one who has resorted to name calling and dismissal, without providing any evidence to support your own side. Let me turn it around on you: can you provide any examples of Ulfric telling Galmar or the others to stop disrespecting the non Nords who live under his rule?

 

TBH, I don't see anywhere they could live within the city proper, all the houses are occupied and likely were long before the migration. They seem to be living in the only place in the city where they can.

 

Actually, Fraquar, that's a limitation of the map itself, with only a few dozen people in a "major" city. Otherwise the game would have been far larger and required far more space on our hard drives. Though I must admit to some disappointment; I enjoy urban settings. In Arena you could go to literally every town and city in every province of the Empire, and Arena's versions of the eight major cities in Skyrim ( http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Places ) were much larger (albeit randomly generated via the same process that created an endless series of dungeons and such for players to adventure in when not hunting for the pieces of the staff to defeat Jagar Thorne). Still...that's what mods are for. ^.^

[fraquar]

There are no such issues with any other city in Skyrim other than Riften and Windhelm, which are the only two that the migrants ever made it to en masse.

 

In Riften they stay at the Bunkhouse - because there isn't enough housing.

In Windhelm they stay in the Grey Quarter, because there isn't enough housing.

 

If they migrated to Whiterun, it's anybodys guess where they'd be but my guess is they wouldn't even be inside the city walls. Has nothing to do with racism, it's simply a space issue.

[Archone]

No, it's a limitation of the game. Let's face it... only a dozen or two dozen people in any given town? There ought to be a lot more. There WERE a lot more in previous games such as Arena and Daggerfall... but those were mostly random generic NPCs with only limited dialogue who wandered around town during daylight hours or lounged in the taverns or worked in the shops. Every game in the series has been more detailed and focused than the previous games, at the cost of scale. Arena had you roaming the entire continent as well as Sommerset Isle. Daggerfall had you limited to one province. Morrowind had you roaming a considerably less populous province. Oblivion had you in Cyrodil, which Arena shows to be a tiny space in comparism to the other provinces. It's simply a limitation of the available technology for the game. Just like how Arena had no real allowance for vertical movement aside from jumping over pools and pits, whereas Morrowind gave us Levitation spells and potions that allowed the Nevarine to "Flying Brick" across the landscape (or simply combine Fortify Acrobatics with Feather Fall).

[MacSuibhne]

...

 

 

I don't care what other people do...it's Ulfric we are talking about. Ulfric wasn't even alive when the Dunmer most likely came to Windhelm and settled in the Grey Quarter. You're laying the blame on Ulfric for their sojourn in the Grey Quarter when the Lore itself proves...read that again, proves...that it rightfully belongs at the feet of the Dunmer themselves--their clannishness and distrustfulness--and is the result of a volcano more than any other external factor.

 

Everything you say comes down to hearsay, speculation, opinion even fantasy...because there is no evidence and you cannot cite one example of Ulfric himself engaged in any racist act, or expressing a racist opinion.

 

It's either hearsay or it it a deliberate skewing of events and facts.

 

Either way it is indeed guilt by association...and those were your own words.

 

Either way it is guilt by omission.

 

Frankly, I find it a bit tawdry if nothing else--to condemn the man on someone else's sly innuendos and petty asides. Every example you've cited has failed even the most elementary standard of evidentiary fairness.

 

And if pointing that out is condescending, so be it. You have an opinion. Everyone has an opinion...even (maybe especially) NPC's in the game. That's the way the story and the game is structured.

 

But opinions are not automatically truth or even gateways to truth.

 

Opinions are like backsides--everyone has one....but they're not all worth smelling.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

No, it's a limitation of the game. Let's face it... only a dozen or two dozen people in any given town? There ought to be a lot more. There WERE a lot more in previous games such as Arena and Daggerfall... but those were mostly random generic NPCs with only limited dialogue who wandered around town during daylight hours or lounged in the taverns or worked in the shops. Every game in the series has been more detailed and focused than the previous games, at the cost of scale. Arena had you roaming the entire continent as well as Sommerset Isle. Daggerfall had you limited to one province. Morrowind had you roaming a considerably less populous province. Oblivion had you in Cyrodil, which Arena shows to be a tiny space in comparism to the other provinces. It's simply a limitation of the available technology for the game. Just like how Arena had no real allowance for vertical movement aside from jumping over pools and pits, whereas Morrowind gave us Levitation spells and potions that allowed the Nevarine to "Flying Brick" across the landscape (or simply combine Fortify Acrobatics with Feather Fall).

 

My point is very few if any cities are capable of handling a mass influx of refugees - and treating them as any other ordinary citizen.

 

I understand what you are saying, but you don't seem to understand what I'm getting at.

 

In order for Windhelm or any city to be able to accomodate their wishes, that city would pretty much have to be a ghost town - 40-50% inhabited.

[MacSuibhne]

One other point, that I missed regarding real life politics...if you even uttered the word "racism" in the world and culture of Skyrim people would either look at you like you were out of your mind and talking in tongues or they would laugh you back to your alternate universe.

 

Every race in Skyrim is xenophobic. Every race in Skyrim is nationalistic. One race even wants to exterminate all the others.

 

The point is that no one would even understand the concept of racism. So where does it come from?

 

It comes from here...we bring it with us (some of us).

 

And inappropriately, in my opinion...for all the reasons I've stated.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

Taxes: What part of "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation..." is so hard to understand?

 

I don't know whether we can verify this or not...I have searched and The Decree of Monument is the closest I come. Nevertheless, it is better than speculation and fantasy.

 

I'd sooner believe a citizen of Windhelm, before using an old monument as proof that the Dunmer aren't taxed. I'm especially inclined to be skeptical, considering Ulfric's statement "Damn the Jarls, and damn the moot!"

 

He only cares for Nord traditions so long as they benefit his cause.

 

I suspect that part of the problem...no, maybe the central problem...with the charges of racism as well as the examples invoked, is that some people want so desperately to conflate contemporary society with the society we find in Skyrim that Skyrim has become a surrogate for the political and cultural divide in this country.

 

Or maybe, some people are just just comparing Ulfric's Windhelm to the Imperial's Solitude. Hm, argonians elves and nords all treated equally....

 

Much of what is being said, really has no bearing on Skyrim...or Ulfric, either, for that matter...but more properly belongs at an Occupy ____Street protest (fill in the blank). And I repeat, for every "they won't let me do this" remark there is another "if you work hard, you'll prosper".

 

Oh how cute, first he gets on his soap box to condemn people for disrespecting a fictional character and now he's decided to slander the REAL people who support the Occupy movement. Way to show you're the more intelligent and moral person there. I especially like how you stereotype the movement too, that's really thoughtful.