Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[CaptainDerpster]

But, Ulfric is a liar. He claims that Skyrim is a haven for all races. But he wants it to be terrrible for anyone who isn't a Nord. It is stated a lot in the game that he only cares for Nords, such as by the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm. This is another point of how the system Ulfric wants for Skyrim is corrupt, and by some peoples' morals, racist and bigoted. But some agree with Ulfric, that his system is right. Some agree that his goal is true, but almost all else about him is bad and corrupt. It is opinion. this whole conversiation is a matter of opinion. So some should be able to speak what they want, and let others post what they want. Edited June 16, 2012 by CaptainDerpster

[imperistan]

This is just getting repetitive now.

 

There's seriously no reason for me nor Mac (not to speak for you Mac, but I figure it applies to both of us, being the two most outspoken Stormcloak supporters. Probably on the entire Internet) to keep repeatedly responding to arguments we've responded too dozens of times now, debunking pure rumor and slander, misinformation and plain wrong information, using objective evidence derived straight from the game and the lore. I at the least have looked at the situation and torn away all of the clear bias present in personal testimonies, whereas others take them at face value without considering the personal motives of the witness and/or their cause. Would you trust (and this is general speaking by the way, not meant to draw any real life parallels) a Democrat saying something about a Republican when he has a vested interest in that Republican not getting into office? Hell no you wouldn't, unless you could verify it or easily see through the bias.

 

All Imperial supporters thus far have proven to have their arguments hinged on pure opinion, rumor, and outright personal issues, with little to no objective proof that hasn't already been debunked by me, Mac, or someone else. Stormcloaks meanwhile (the serious supporters mind you, there are plenty of rabid nonsense-spewers on both sides of the debate) have put far more weight on objective evidence and whats actually present in the game that doesn't hinge on rumor or opinion.

[Kraeten]

This is just getting repetitive now.

 

I couldn't agree more. So instead of claiming that all arguments in favor of the Empire rely on speculation, which is both disingenuous and rude, we should do the more sensible and respectable thing and simply agree to disagree. Arguments on both sides rely on speculation, with few of them altogether relying on irrefutable facts.

[imperistan]

Nice try at having the last word. :rolleyes:

[Kraeten]

Nice try at having the last word. :rolleyes:

 

Thank you, I'm sure that's not what you were trying to do with your last post either. :armscrossed:

[fraquar]

But, Ulfric is a liar. He claims that Skyrim is a haven for all races. But he wants it to be terrrible for anyone who isn't a Nord. It is stated a lot in the game that he only cares for Nords, such as by the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm. This is another point of how the system Ulfric wants for Skyrim is corrupt, and by some peoples' morals, racist and bigoted. But some agree with Ulfric, that his system is right. Some agree that his goal is true, but almost all else about him is bad and corrupt. It is opinion. this whole conversiation is a matter of opinion. So some should be able to speak what they want, and let others post what they want.

 

Answer this question, what would Solitude or Whiterun look like with a massive influx of Elves/Argonians?

 

Markarth we already have an idea, the Warrens would be double/triple bunked.....

Riften has the bunkhouse......

Solitude/Whiterun? There isn't existing slums for them to be live in, so some would have to be made.

 

EVERY Skyrim city would look like Windhelm (refugee alley) if they had a massive influx of refugees and EVERY Skyrim Jarl would have complaints made about him/her to do more for their cause.

 

Just because they made a decree doesn't mean there is space to adequately provide for them wherever they feel like congregating.

 

Something has to be said as to WHY they continue to choose to live like that, and the only explanation that seems to make any sense is that they want to. They'd rather be miserable but together than better off and separate.

 

 

 

 

The closest city to Windhelm is

[MacSuibhne]

 

So far your standards seem to consist of "anyone who disagrees with me needs to be insulted and mocked." You have yet to provide one link, one example, one factual anecdote. You have challenged the evidence provided by others (while they proceeded to defend their evidence), but failed to provide any of your own. I repeat: can you provide any examples of Ulfric openly renouncing the bigotry of his comrades, or of him openly declaring Skyrim to be a haven for all regardless of their racial origins?

 

I have not mocked anyone personally. I suspect that anyone who feels mocked probably thinks this song is about him/her. If I have mocked anything, I have mocked close-minded and condemnatory attitudes, and ignorance, and la-la land wishful thinking...if the shoe fits wear it. If not, why whine?

 

I challenged you and all your cronies to cite one...just one...credible example of Ulfric behaving or supporting racist ideas. Most...so far all...the responses in this thread have been the repetition of remarks made by biased and disgruntled NPC's. Everyone of us has heard those--in person. Some take them with a grain of salt. Some gulp them down like an energy drink. I suspect that the only reason people can't see how bogus they are, is because they do not respect logical or objective thinking.

 

The game is deliberately written to manipulate the player with these biased and emotional set pieces. If you will buy into hearsay and make your decision based on gossip and slander...if you will believe the worst of Ulfric without any verifiable evidence to support it...I have some ocean-front property in the desert I'd like to sell you--no pictures or "evidence" required, right?

 

I challenged you fellows first. The response has, universally, been misdirection and denial...ostensibly to avoid having to produce results.

 

And now, here you come, parroting my challenge. To my way of thinking, that just further illustrates the problem here--a failure to honour the supposed tolerance and open-mindedness...and self-congratulation...that you take refuge in. Every form of refuge has a price...in this case, it is walking the walk or being revealed as a hypocrite.

 

Why should I have to prove that Ulfric is not a racist? I grew up in a country that paid more than lip service to the notion that a man was presumed innocent until proven otherwise. The whole system of justice...and fairness...in this country is based on the idea that the burden of proof lies with the accusing party, not with the accused. I know that this notion is considered passe' among all those who disdain Tradition and the idea of objective truth. But it still holds sway with me. It's a dark and ugly world that doesn't honour such ideals.

 

I would also request that you cite the place and NPC that tells you the Dunmer pay taxes. I stated quite clearly, and early on, that I could not verify the situation one way or the other and offered The Decree of Monument as something other than unsubstantiated opinion. But since you have what you claim is a direct and unequivocal quote, I would like to verify it, and the context, for myself (there's that word again, irritating how I keep coming back to it, isn't it?)

 

Parenthetically, the word "tithes" and its connection to Thanes refers to the way that taxes are collected in archaic societies. I hope you don't think that people in Skyrim are filling out form 1040 every April 14th.

Edited June 16, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

As to where I get my news...it's really no one's business. This forum isn't about me. That said, it has been my experience in many years of posting to the Internet and hosting a forum myself, that those who can't deal with the ideas will always make it personal.

 

It's just another way to pigeon-hole people instead of thinking or understanding. Just like pigeon-holing Ulfric as a racist--label him with a pejorative word and you can go back to sleep.

 

FWIW...to the extent that I tune into any media, believe it or not, both my shop and car radio are tuned to NPR.

Edited June 16, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

I have not mocked anyone personally. I suspect that anyone who feels mocked probably thinks this song is about him/her. If I have mocked anything, I have mocked close-minded and condemnatory attitudes and ignorance and la-la land wishful thinking...if the shoe fits wear it. If not, why whine?

 

That's rich. As if you haven't been close-minded, condemnatory, ignorant or wishful in this debate yourself. You're just as much a hypocrite as any of these others you're scorning if not more so considering how ardently you're trying to take the moral high ground.

 

I challenged you and all your cronies to cite one

 

Case in point, using the word crony. That says a lot about you being ignorant.

 

...just one...credible example of Ulfric behaving or supporting racist ideas. Most...so far all...the responses in this thread have been the repetition of remarks made by biased and disgruntled NPC's. Everyone of us has heard those, personally. Some take them with a grain of salt. Some gulp them down like an energy drink. I suspect that the only reason people can't see how bogus they are, is because they do not respect logical or linear/empirical thinking.

 

 

And you have yet to provide a single, credible example of how Brunwolf-Freewinter is wrong or even biased. You can keep telling yourself you're absolutely right all you want, that doesn't make it true.

 

 

The game is deliberately written to manipulate the player with these biased and emotional set pieces.

 

I agree, but in a different light.The game pushes you towards the Stormcloaks from the get go when you're put under an Imperial headsman's axe. The game wants you to feel sorry for the Stormcloaks, to feel their pain and outrage as they suffer the white gold concordant. And yet, there is without a doubt certain lack of intelligence in the rebellion.

 

They believe, wishfully, that mankinds odds at defeating the Dominion are somehow better when the Empire that united them is dead.

 

I challenged you fellows first. The response has, universally, been misdirection and denial...ostensibly to avoid having to produce results.

 

Funny, that's exactly the same sorts or arguments I've seen from you lot. You think just because an argument sounds about right upstairs, it simply "must" be true. Never mind the fact you have no evidence, just "wishful thinking".

 

And now, here you come, parroting my challenge. To my way of thinking, that just further illustrates the problem here--a failure to honour the supposed tolerance and open-mindedness...and self-congratulation...that you take refuge in. Every form of refuge has a price...in this case, it is walking the walk or being revealed as a hypocrite.

 

And here we have an example of the condemnatory behavior. Hypocrite much?

 

Why would I feel compelled...why should I have to...prove that Ulfric is not a racist?

 

You should feel compelled, because a veteran and honorable man like Brunwolf-Freewinter calls him out on being such. And this is a man who respects Ulfric. If you want us to think he's a liar, then prove him to be one. It shouldn't be so hard. Not if you're so obviously more informed than the rest of us. :rolleyes:

 

I would also request that you cite the place and NPC that tells you the Dunmer pay taxes.

 

I ALREADY HAVE. Viola Giordano is the one who makes the statement. A dunmer shopkeep named Revyn Sadri believes the ring he's been sold is stolen property, and asks you to return it to Viola. If you return it to her formally, she gets irritated and states she will talk to the Jarl to raise the man's taxes. Afterwards, the shopkeeper always addresses the player as a miserable wretch, and his wares are more expensive thereafter.

 

I would like to verify it, and the context, for myself (there's that word again, irritating how I keep coming back to it, isn't it?)

 

It's irritating in so far as you don't hold yourself to the same standard. As I've stated before, you have no proof Ulfric honors the terms the monument was made in tribute to. I on other hand, have proof he doesn't.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Kraeten

[MacSuibhne]

 

Case in point, using the word crony. That says a lot about you being ignorant.

 

 

OK...I'll be your huckleberry.

 

Crony: a close friend especially of long standing...Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Do you feel mocked now?

 

I suspect you're just looking for someone to openly mock you so that you can vent.

 

If I wanted to mock someone personally, I dern sure wouldn't have far to look for someone worthy of mockery.

 

Frankly, I just hate to see your posts. It means that I have to read through a lot of disjointed, irrational and irrelevant blather. Every time I read one of your posts I am put in mind of The BugBlatter Beast of Traal.

 

Anyone got a towel?

 

[Vent away...I'm done]

Edited June 16, 2012 by MacSuibhne