Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[imperistan]

I'm going to leave this here as well.

 

I'm going to go ahead and list out a couple things, that may or may not have already been covered. But I figure its better to have a nice round-up and some general clarification on events:

 

 

Talos has to be worshiped. Otherwise, he'll go poof. The gods divinity, and especially the divinity of Talos rely on mythopoesis. IE, they need people to believe in them to really give them power. The Thalmor push for the worship of Talos being banned because they don't see him as a god, and whats worse, they see him as an insult because it shows that a mere human could reach divinity while all Altmer are still stuck as mortals. Further, they want to return to the point where they weren't mortals. Removing Talos (by way of eliminating all those who believe in him, and castrating him in those who could come to believe in him) is the first step towards that. The Thalmor ultimately want to end the world for humans (and thus reverse the creation of Mundus) because then that would (according to what they think will happen) return them to a point before Mundus was created.

 

Ulfric started his rebellion because he was denied the ability to openly worship Talos by the Empire, and not only that, but he was thrown into the hands of the Thalmor shortly afterwords. For merely doing what he was asked by his Empire and asking for what he was promised. While the Thalmor call him an "asset", its quite foolish to assume that after being tortured by the Thalmor that he's going to just get all buddy buddy with them. No most likely the Thalmor heard him cursing the Empire and vowing some sort of revenge while being tortured (or while in his cell) and as such saw fit to let him escape to start his Rebellion. They say that they go on to establish contact, but again, its foolish to assume that he'd just buddy up to them after what happened. No, most likely the Thalmor have a plant in his army that is working towards sustaining the war while also undermining it. I personally suspect his steward, but it could be anyone.

 

This however doesn't make his rebellion a bad thing.

 

======================

 

The current Empire needs to die. Its higher leadership is plagued by incompetence and corruption, its Emperor (who was a bloody short-sighted idiot, more on that in a second) is about to be assassinated, its military can't hold onto its one major holding outside of Cyrodiil (High Rock is currently too busy fussing about themselves to be much a bother to anyone), and whats worse its not even a legitimate Empire. The Throne was taken by force by the first Titus Mede, so the Empire you all think you're supporting actually died off a little under 200 years ago.

 

Its ineptitude is proven in its actions. When it first began, it failed to respond to what was occurring in the Empire. The entire south of Tamriel was lost in the time leading up to the Great War, Morrowind was torn apart, and western Tamriel went to war against Orsinium, which eventually lead to that city being destroyed yet again, breaking the treaties that existed there and ultimately going against the Empire's rule. But sure, may be you can give the Mede Empire a break here because it was "weak". That's fine.

 

Then the Great War comes along. The Dominion gives the Empire an ultimatum, and demands the south of Hammerfel and several other things that would basically cripple what was left of the Empire. Mede II has the sense to deny them this. The Dominion then proceeds to invade within a day of that ultimatum being denied, ultimately circumventing Cyrodiil's defenses, and passing straight into Hammerfel, with the intent on taking it. (Cyrodiil being invaded was just a ploy to keep the Legion divided) Cyrodiil proves to be easier to take, with success being had by Narafiin's army at an impressive rate. This leads to the point when the south of Hammerfel is taken, and the Dominion's separate army (separate, remember that) moving across the Alik'r desert to be stopped in Skaven. At this point, the Dominion calls on all available forces (which basically means any forces not currently sitting in Hammerfel or otherwise being used for law and order) to march on Cyrodiil to capture the Imperial City and in turn overthrow the Empire altogether. They capture the Imperial City and begin slaughtering the inhabitants of Cyrodiil save those who live in the northern areas, namely Bruma.

 

Eventually, the Legion manages to rally itself into coherence, and the Emperor orders the Legion in Hammerfel (along with Legions coming out of Skyrim and High Rock) to march on Cyrodiil, which ultimately would have left Hammerfel at the hands of the Dominion's invasion force there. But General Decianus has a brain and leaves troops there who go on to form the core of the army that would continue fighting there. So, the Legion marches on Cyrodiil, attacks the Dominion held Imperial City and retakes it, destroying the vast majority of the Dominion's entire army along with it.

 

Then, inexplicably, Mede II signs the White-Gold Concordat, which completely negates the fact that the Legion destroyed the Dominion's army by giving the Dominion virtually all of the main awards they wished to gain in the first place with their ultimatum. This is ultimately proven to be one of the stupidest decisions an Emperor could make, as Hammerfel (which is left to the wolves because Mede is a short-sighted dillweed) goes on to fight the Dominion's invasion force (which was built specifically to take Hammerfel, and the Thalmor would not have been so stupid to put a force together that couldn't have taken Hammerfel) to a total standstill on its own (using a diminished single Legion and whatever militia they could have raised) and kept the Dominion in this standstill for 5 years afterwords, at which point the Dominion gives up and lets Hammerfel have all of its lands back.

 

This shows us that the war could have been sustained with little problem to the Empire. For one, Hammerfel was already going to be involved in war, so there's no point stopping war for their sake. High Rock and Skyrim never saw the war and at that point would never have seen the war unless the Dominion somehow found themselves a magical mcguffin. As such, stopping war or continuing it wasn't going to put any more strain on them. Cyrodiil was the only place that would have truly had a reason to see the war stopped (and note that this is important to note for later) and even then, the remaining Legion forces that could continue to fight would have been able to defend Cyrodiil's southern borders, especially when complemented with fresh troops from the two provinces up in the north that never saw the war and were never drawn on for fresh troops. (The legions that were taken from the two were already established there, well before the war. They weren't new troops going off to their first fight) It would have been the same for resources. High Rock and Skyrim could have easily supported Cyrodiil and the resistance in Hammerfel with proper rationing.

 

The mere fact that the Dominion gave up fighting against one single province shows that they would not have been able to sustain a war against the rest of northern, western, and central Tamriel. Elsweyrs status as a pair of client states to the Dominion wouldn't have helped them, because the Khajiit proved that they weren't going to go to war for the Dominion, both in their actions during the Great War (where their only presence was in allowing Dominion troops asylum) and afterwords, where they never sent help to Hammerfel's invasion force.

 

But no, Titus Mede II signed the WGC and completely undermined the victory he just had against his enemy, and all for the seeming point of serving CYRODIIL's interests. The Empire clings to Skyrim because it knows that Cyrodiil will be left to the mercy of the Dominion (though even then, the Dominion can't successfully invade anyone at this point, and wont' be able to for at least a hundred years. Best case scenario they knock over the Empire, but thats not saying much when it would just leave them with a weak grip on Cyrodiil), not because Tamriel will fall. Not because the Dominion is some mystical force thats just ready to destroy the Empire but is only holding back because of some stupid treaty. Not because Cyrodiil actually cares about Skyrim.

 

The Mede Empire is weak, has always been weak, and has shown that its even willing to sell out the most important god to Mankind all for the sake of sparing poor old Cyrodiil the threat of war. It needs to die, so that something new can take its place. Something that can, and will stand up the Dominion and won't just fall apart soon afterwords anyway. The Mede Empire will never be able to regain the allegiance of Hammerfel, as Hammerfel would not ally themselves with the very force that sold them out to the Dominion, unless by force, which would result in war even more detrimental than the current Civil War in Skyrim. And the allegiance of Hammerfel is going to be crucial for whomever decides to go up against the Dominion. Its sea access and key experience with the Dominion is invaluable, and the Empire will never be able to touch it.

 

It needs to die, and a unified Skyrim coming to call upon the rest of mankind (and much of Mer-kind for that matter)on Tamriel is going to be the best hope against the Dominion when the time comes.

================================

 

Those saying that the enforcement of the Talos ban only being started after the Civil War are, well stupid, because they're missing the point entirely of whats occurring. Sitting there and worshiping in the darkness (in some petty attempt to stay alive long enough to see an end you can't escape) is just as bad as outright accepting someone telling you can't worship X god anymore. The Thalmor want to obliterate Talos and by extension the rest of mankind and the entirety of Mundus along with it. Worshiping in secret will do NOTHING. It will only postpone the inevitable. The Thalmor might not have been so active in Skyrim before the Civil War, but you damn well know they were going to be at some point regardless. They want to obliterate Talos. Left unchecked, they WILL start purging Talos worshipers in Skyrim, Civil War or not.

 

I can tell you as a real-life follower of a polytheistic religion that an invasion force coming in and telling me I can't worship one of my gods would easily make me want to rise in rebellion. The fact that there are many gods does not make it any less terrible when you're told you can't worship one of them. And if that god is the most popular one in the bunch? Oh, its bad.

 

==============================

 

As touched on above, while the rebellion is indeed beneficial to the Dominion, that does not automatically make the rebellion a bad thing. As stated above, the Empire needs to die. And as the dossier on Ulfric shows, their rebellion succeeding would be just as detrimental to them as it would be if the rebellion was put down in a timely fashion by the Legion. The Thalmor need to be dealt with yes, but they aren't some magical power that's just waiting to waltz over and destroy all of Tamriel. They actually can't.

 

Their army is diminished still from the Great War. Valenwood can't be called on for support because not only does only a small portion of the population there actually support the Thalmor government, but those that don't support it are being purged still, 200 years after Valenwood was seized by the Dominion (They never joined willingly). Valenwood is on the verge of civil war itself, and even that civil war never erupts, the few among the Bosmer that will go to war for the Dominion are not going to give the Dominion the forces it needs to take on the rest of Tamriel. Elsweyr can't be called on, they won't go to war for the Dominion as they've shown on two occasions already. (and they can't be forced to either. Learn what a client state is)

 

The Dominion would need at least 100 years more to prepare before it could hope to take on the rest of Tamriel, but even then, they'd have a hard time because by then, no matter who wins the Civil War, the Dominion is going to have an army on its doorstep. And as I showed above, a Skyrim-lead army is going to be the best option, as it will then lead to a better future for Tamriel, and not one lead by the same inept government that allowed us to come to be in this mess in the first place.

 

The thing about that duel is that the facts are massively skewed towards a misunderstanding of what happened. From what I've been able to tell (from talking to absolutely everyone who could say anything about it and removing the clear bias' from all of them), I can tell quite easily that the shout was not used as a tactical move, but nothing more than a flourish, to prove Ulfric as the truer Nord according to the traditions that defined Skyrim in the first place. And this is perfectly acceptable, just as using it tactically would have been. Thu'um has been a rather integral part of Nordic society since it was first gifted to mankind. Any who practice it would be foolish not to display this fact, and especially so during duels. As for the guard's reactions, I attribute this more to the idea that most likely the Thu'um has been slowly dying out by the time the game's events unfold. There was a time when virtually every Nord who could fight knew the voice. Now, only the seldom few. It isn't that hard to see that a man who knows the Voice would inspire awe in those who likely second-guess the validity of that abilities actual existence. (After all, people believed Dragons were just legends, despite the fact that there was substantial evidence to prove otherwise. Its not hard to see that the Voice would come under the same scrutiny)

 

The Imperials and/or Imperial sympathetic would also see the voice as something unusual, and as such would mistake it for something dishonorable when truly it wasn't.

 

I suggest you watch this and understand what's occuring:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1mzx5O4ao

 

Then come back and look over how the duel went again. You'll see that both duels serve much the same point. To prove one man better than another for X purpose before the eyes of all concerned. In the video, its done before an actual crowd, In Skyrim, the duel was not seen by anyone until the very end, though the point was still made regardless. Ulfric proved he was the better man, the better Nord, and the better King, again according to the very traditions that defined Skyrim and the Nordic race in general. This is the exact point of these sorts of duels. They are not fencing matches, they're battles.

 

And I won't even go into the real-world parallels that explain this even further, other than to say that even the old Norse would have used the Thu'um if they had it during their duels. Norse duels (which we can presume are virtually identical to Nordic customs in Tamriel, as at this point we're seeing direct a parallel between the two societies anyway. In fact the Nords are the one race in the game that do take specifically from their obvious real-world counterpart and in great quantities) were battles in which every option at the warriors disposal were put to use.

 

Whether it was a rock on the ground, a thick stick you took off a tree, or your opponents own sword which he dropped, you used it to defeat and kill your enemy. All was honorable for the point was to defeat your opponent. Not to beat around the bush like fencers do, with specific rules against taking the advantage. But besides, back then Norse duels were fought over much pettier things than who was the proper fit for a King. Back then Norse duels were fought because you delivered a particularly good insult to the other, or because you bested him in battle with a twig, or something else that insulted a man's dignity and often-times honor. So Nordic duels as we've seen them have been quite tame and "honorable."

 

It should also be noted that someone who bases his platform on returning to Nordic tradition that acting like a weak pansy is not going to solidify nor garner support. You don't win over a tribe of barbarians by being a book worm. In the same way, you don't win over Nords who agree with the sentiment of returning to the old Nordic ways by being a milk drinker.

 

 

 

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

 

And nobody in either of these threads has pointed out that the genius that is Ulfric Stormcloak is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. If anyone actually read the dossier in the game, they'd be aware of this. The Thalmor actually let him escape because he was so predictable.

 

 

So I guess Ulfric is on Alduin's side as well? Is he on the side of the Tsaesci or the Ka Po' Tun?

 

Just because Ulfric is being a benefit to the Dominion doesn't make his war a bad thing. Any other enemy to the Empire causing issues for the Empire would be a benefit to the Dominion.

 

And no, its doubtful the Thalmor thought Ulfric predictable. What most likely happened is that in the middle of torturing him (or simply watching rot away in his cage, Ulfric did what any Nord would have done and vowed vengeance against the Empire that fed him to the Thalmor and basically used him for his prowess. And considering his role in Markarth they likely knew he could actually make due on that vow, at least enough to cause a problem for the Empire.

 

You really would have to be a blind Imperial fanatic to believe that being a benefit to the Dominion makes the Stormcloak's cause any less legitimate, however. The (False) Empire is dying and quite frankly it doesn't deserve to live anymore. The Empire all the Empire supporters wants to survive already crashed and burned 200 years ago. What we have now is a cannibal Empire wearing the old Empire for a hat. Its leadership is corrupt, its Emperor inept (and on his way to his grave) and whatever bastard children (if any) he may have are unlikely to salvage what they inherit.

 

It would be far better to see the Empire fall so that a new one could rise. It doesn't have to be a Stormcloak-ian Empire. Nor does it have to be a Dominion Empire. It doesn't even need to be an Empire, it could be something completely different. At any rate, the Dominion does have to be put down (and funnily enough the Empire's the only force on Tamriel that could be mustered when the time comes that couldn't do it) and at this time Ulfric is the only one actively pushing for that to happen in the here and now, which is the right thing to do. (as playing the waiting game with the Dominion is, in actuality, playing into their hands. And the Empire is doing just that)

 

If your character doesn't get involved in the rebelion, neither side will win. As for part-taking in the civil war is a question of opinion. To go as far as calling someone "blind Imperial fanatic" just for having a different view of tha war goes a little to far.

 

Eventually one side will win the war even without the Dragonborn's involvement. The two sides simply couldn't stalemate each other, they're too different and whats more the events outside of the war will have a heavy effect on it. The Emperor being assassinated, the dragon crisis, etc will influence who wins out in the end, and really it could go either way.

 

And I said that you'd have to be a fanatic because to sit there and say (or rather, allude) that the Stormcloak's cause is illegitimate just because it so happens to benefit the Dominion indicates that much. Its not having a different view on the war so much as it is getting caught up on one fact and denouncing the other side of the argument afterwards, without even considering the fact that supporting the Imperials in the war benefits the Dominion in the same way. If the Imperial side really wanted to get at the Dominion, they'd be pushing for the war to end immediately with both sides reconciling and consolidating. The reason Ulfric pushes for total independence (rather than an immediate peace and reconciliation) is because the Empire has given him little choice, what with their past actions against not only him, but just in general. And honestly, if the Empire was willing to do what needed to be done (in the pursuit of defeating the Dominion) in the first place then this war would have never happened, because the Empire already beat the Dominion once. But then Emperor Short-sight McGee decided to let the Dominion win anyway, giving the Dominion virtually everything they wanted (which was why that war started in the first place, the Empire refusing the Dominion's ultimatum), and thats whats ultimately lead to this conflict.

 

But getting back to what I was talking a bout, the only reason I could see you holding that fact (the Rebellion benefitting the Dominion) as an actual con for supporting the Stormcloaks is if you are a blind fanatic who can't see that both sides of the war are benefiting the Dominion. Its sheer hypocrisy.

 

. The Empire only fought back when the Thalmor tried to take Hammerfell, and that ended up with the Thalmor taking most of Hammerfell. What are the remaining provinces of the Empire supposed to think, other than the Empire is incapable of protecting them

 

Just a fact check, but it didn't happen exactly like that. The Empire only fought the Dominion when they tried to give an ultimatum to the Empire, which did include southern Hammerfel. However, the war didn't start in Hammerfel but in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was invaded first (as a distraction) and within the same day another invasion army drove through the area between Kvatch and Anvil and invaded Hammerfel, which was their real target. The war raged on for some weeks and eventually the Dominion forces began to notice that they were doing extraordinarily well in Cyrodiil, and this lead to a major portion of their military might that wasn't already occupied elsewhere being called in to take the Imperial City. They did this, and eventually that lead to the War of the Red Ring, where the entire Dominion presence in Cyrodiil got wiped out when the Legion got their collective crap together.

 

Meanwhile, in Hammerfel, the Dominion forces had raged through the southern half of the province and were pushing their way across the Alik'r until they suffered a defeat -somewhere- (forget where, don't feel like pullin up UESP) and got pushed back into the south. Not long after, Emperor Short-Sight McGee called for the Legions in Hammerfel to march on Cyrodiil (IE, he ordered Hammerfel abandoned) but one of the generals who had some sense decided to leave soldiers behind (calling them disabled or something like that) and it was that small fraction of a Legion along with the Hammerfel militia that went on to fight the Dominion. After the war ended (and the Dominion got everything they wanted), Hammerfel was cut off from the rest of the Empire (because understandably its inhabitants weren't stupid enough to stop fighting, so the Empire abandoned them) and Hammerfel went on to fight the Dominion to a stalemate within months. They kept the Dominion at this stalemate for 5 years (IE, the Dominion had 5 years to resupply their forces there if not land a fresh invasion force, and yet they still couldn't break the stalemate) after which the Dominion gave up and withdrew entirely from Hammerfel.

 

The south of Hammerfel was ravaged, but Hammerfel ultimately won against the Dominion. And this is ultimately my main reason for supporting the Stormcloaks. If the Empire's leadership was so inept as to let that happen (considering that it wasn't like they ever had their testes in a vice grip or anything remotely like that then they will never be fit to lead the next fight against the Dominion, which in truth should have happened 30 years ago.

 

There's a massive difference between the One Ring and the Thu'um. The One Ring inherently brings out the deepest evil in you as a matter of how its magic works. The One Ring is a literal entity itself and a totally evil one at that.

 

The Thu'um is nothing like that. Its a power thats virtually no different than the most powerful magics other than in the way its manifested. Thats it. No inherent evil. No inherent temptation to be a total dick. Whatever evil comes about through the use of the thu'um is not truly because of the thu'um but because of the evil those men carried in their hearts.

 

And if thats the basis of withholding it, then we should be banning weapons, magic, and anything else that could be used offensively. Kings and all notions of power should be banned.

 

Call it a slippery slope if you want but that illustrates the ridiculousness of withholding knowledge of a certain power in a world populated by powerful magic and all kinds of powerful weapons and beings.

 

kibblesticks

However, I refuse to believe the Empire were in a strong position when the Great War ended, as there would be no reason to allow an army bent on the destruction of all non-mer races to gain more influence

 

The Empire wasn't in something I could call a "strong position", but they also were not at the mercy of the Dominion. Far from it. Even if they couldn't outright defeat the Dominion, there could have been a unconditional truce between them. The Dominion had already taken a massive loss and their war in Hammerfel wasn't going anywhere (as at the time of the WGC, Hammerfel forces had already pushed the Dominion back across the desert and were making headway into the stalemate that would eventually follow) so the Dominion would have been ultimately foolish not to accept a truce. The Dominion simply was not in a position for a multi-front war (as the war in Hammerfel proves they could barely handle a single-front war) and with the Empire having already defeated them in a very major and significan way, they had every political right to demand either a surrender or at worst an unconditional truce between the two powers.

 

That the Empire was in the position it was and offered the Dominion what it did shows that the Empire wasn't even acting on logic, but merely irrational and dramatic over-concern for Cyrodiil's well-being.

 

You do make some very compelling points about the Empire's motives in all this, but really it comes down to who has the best chance of defeating the Dominion, and I still believe the Empire have the intention of fighting back at some point. I don't need evidence for this, anyone in the know could see that having a mer-purist regime in charge would be a bad idea, and so I have to assume the Empire has motivations towards removing the threat. I also assume that all their best minds (military, economic and diplomatic) would have been consulted before the signing of the WGC.

 

Unless you're telling me that there's an impending military coup, there's simply no way the Empire will ever fight back against the Dominion. Or at the very least in the time frame that they must if they want a chance to win. But even then, the Empire is still going to struggle because of what it did in the past. Abandoning Hammerfel and ignoring Valenwood and Elsweyr (the Empire might not have had a real leader when these two were lost but thats really not an excuse. There were plenty of men and women who could have taken up that mantle, if only to maintain order) doomed the Empire to fail. Giving the Dominion its original demands and free reign to attack your culture doomed them to fail.

 

Long story short, the Empire screwed itself and there's no way out of it unless its entire leadership (IE, everyone from the file clerk to the Emperor himself) is removed and replaced with more appropriate and most importantly capable people. And that's essentially what the Stormcloak rebellion would lead to presuming a Stormcloak victory. Having an entirely new leadership (and one that knows what and is willing to do what has to be done right now, not 30 years later) is the only way the Empire will recover Hammerfel (the most strategically important province on Tamriel right now as far as a war with the Dominion is concerned) and even remotely keep Skyrim from breaking off.

 

As I've said before, the Dominion's main weapon of war is cloak and dagger. And the Empire's current leadership is the only military leadership on Tamriel that's going to fall for it. (again) Indeed, they're already falling for it.

 

As for the Ulfric thing, the dossier definately hints at him being an assest rather than a hinderance to the Thalmor.

 

Yes, but in the same way Hammerfel is also a Thalmor asset. As are bandits, dragons, Forsworn, etc etc etc. Ulfric is only a Thalmor asset so long as he is enemy (or rather, a hinderance) to the Empire.

 

Note "direct contact".

 

And yet that means little given the fact that its rather obvious that whatever help the Dominion has given Ulfric is ultimately fruitless for them. The fact that the Dominion see a Stormcloak victory as equally detrimental as an Imperial one proves that, and given the gradual decline in contact between the two (if "direct contact" even means what we presume it means) it shows that Ulfric was in all likelihood just using them, and in all honesty you can't seriously fault him for that.

 

An imperial victory would harm the Thalmor's position in Skyrim. Why would they say that unless they know the Imperial's ability to resist them is greater than the Stormcloaks. If the Imperials are

 

Do notice that Skyrim is in the middle of a civil war. Its much easier for the Dominion to undermine the Empire when they're able to operate freely. Even with the Empire giving them so many leisures, they still have to maintain an image that won't provoke the Empire prematurely. Even with the Empire's waning strength, the Dominion is still very vulnerable. Do note that they suffered much more in terms of loss of life than the Empire did and also lack the provinces (and fast-breeding, quick maturing races) to derive resources and personnel from. In a way, they suffered more in the Great War (and the 5 years following) than the Empire did.

 

As such if their ultimate goal is to defeat the Empire, being able to undermine them without them holding you back is a very important thing to maintain. And that's what the civil war in Skyrim does. It lets them operate in Skyrim freely because the Empire isn't going to be watching them like they would in other provinces, as the war would be a more pressing issue. And not to mention the freedom of operating in Stormcloak territory. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next game we see stories of a Thalmor group masquerading as Stormcloaks and striking out against targets.

 

I'm condemming all the Stormcloaks because they're weakening men's ability to fight against the mer-purists by spilling their own blood and refusing to see the bigger picture.

 

The Empire is doing the same thing. That they're fighting the Stormcloaks rather than realizing, understanding, and accepting the truth of their cause is proof enough of that.

 

Not a disorganised patriot-fest where the disgruntled nords decide to begin a war with the province standing between them and the Thalmor army.

 

Oh the old "The Empire is the only thing standing between Skyrim and the Dominion" shtick. How hilarious. Shall I disprove that nonsense again, or are we going to pretend that borderlines (yes, Cyrodiil is in fact between Skyrim and the Dominion. Congrats you can read a map!) actually mean anything?

 

Again, running in all guns blazing is great for glory and pride, but bad for the long term future of menkind

 

Except that's totally wrong. You can't play the long-term game with the Dominion, because by doing that you're just giving them every advantage. You're letting them:

 

1. Undermine you via cloak and dagger, ie, their main weapon of war.

2. Undermine your culture (thus creating dissent among your people and making your eventual war effort harder to maintain)

3. Rebuild forces that take nearly twice as long as yours to rebuild. (By the time most human races mature, Altmer (Ie, the single race that would make up almost the virtual entirety of the Dominion's armies) are still in their teens somewhere)

4. Giving them full view of your actual military strength and full reign to handpick targets that will cripple you

5. Giving them the chance to insert themselves into your political structure, essentially undermining your entire government.

 

If you want to defeat the Dominion, you have to fight them now. Not 30 years from now, NOW. The Dominion should have been fought to an unconditional truce 30 years ago, and then obliterated 10-15 years after that. (Depending on whether the war in Hammerfel would have continued if the Empire did what it should have done) And whats more, you need to fight them on the ground. Covert isn't going to work against the Dominion, you need to fight them where they can't keep up. And thats in a direct ground war. Just look what happened the last time the Dominion got stuck in a direct ground war against two different sets of enemies. The first time their entire army in Cyrodiil got obliterated. The second time they could barely maintain a stalemate

 

Its that simple fact that makes the Stormcloaks more likely to win against the Dominion. They haven't been undermined by the Dominion over the past 30 years and aren't going to suffer from the hardships the Empire will face in securing allies and generally just fighting the war.

 

I think then, that Ulfric needs to stop advertising his cause as being about "the true sons and daughters of Skyrim" and instead make it clear that he intends to make Skyrim a bastion of freedom, and will gladly welcome any who wish to fight against the Dominion. As it stands, Ulfric's boys come across as disorganised and overly-patriotic. Whilst patriotism is all well and good, it can scare away those of other races and nationalities who would also like to fight against the Thalmor. Ulfric should be ensuring soldiers and political prisoners know that his cities are a safe haven for those wishing to aid in the rebellion.

 

As far as the Civil War is concerned, patriotism is just fine. Post-Civil War, yes, the patriotism needs to be let go. But its a civil war, it'd be strange for patriotism not to be a major "thing" (the word I want to use is on the tip of my tongue but oh well) in recruitment and generally just pushing the war as a good thing.

 

Please please please stop with the angry use of the words "allegation" and "BS". For starters, stating that other people's ideas and opinions are "BS" is, if nothing else, against forum rules on profanity. It's also very rude..

 

Its not necessarily his fault. This discussion (and not this topic specifically, but the greater "Imperial vs Stormcloak" debate that rages across the internet) has been plagued by Imperial supporters who hinge their entire arguments on false allegations of racism on Ulfric's part, and almost every time their "evidence" is either non-existent or completely twisted and/or misread to support their accusations.

 

Not to go off-topic, but that's something that happens a lot on the internet. People get involved in a discussion over something that has a lot of potential to be hotly debated, and there is always a great mass of people who just spew ignorance and other falsehoods against one side of the debate, and that side has to always defend against it. So its natural for those on the defense to "knee-jerk" whenever the discussion they're in leans towards that side of things. Even I do it. (see my "shtick" comment above) And generally its not necessarily our faults. We just get so used to having to rapidly put the hammer down on these "arguments" that we do our best to cut them off before they even get put down in writing.

 

Honestly if we were in the middle of a real battle, we'd be the trigger happy ones because we just sat and waged constant, unceasing battle for a month straight and now we're at a point where its more peaceful and not every twig snapping is an enemy soldier.

 

warden

f you were in his position would you want to be hated by millions of civilians because you drafted their son/daughter/wife/husband/whatever and ordered them to their death? or hated for taking the "easy way out" and protecting your people in the process?

 

Problem is is that Cyrodiil never would have had to see another inch of war. Not even in terms of resources. Cyrodiil literally could have withdrawn from the war, and Skyrim, High Rock (the two provinces that never saw the war. Ever. And never would have for that matter) and Hammerfel (the province that was going to see war regardless) would have been able to maintain the war. Cyrodiil's only involvement would have been in keeping troops in a defensive capacity on the Dominion borders, and that would hardly put a strain on citizens (as many likely wouldn't be near the borders at this point anyway. Half of southern Cyrodiil did get directly ravaged and destroyed by the Dominion after all. So most survivors likely would have fled north).

 

So some people are "expendable"...like the poor sods picked up by Thalmor patrols for worshiping their gods and tortured and beheaded?

 

Not to mention the others slated for execution in the Thalmor Embassy basement for who knows what crimes...certainly the Imperial Judiciary system has no say in it.

 

grow a pair. its commendable that you place such a high vaule on everyone's life, but in practice the way the war ended was the best that could have happened given the circumstances.

 

 

I've already shown that you're wrong about the war, multiple times in fact. (First Page) The Empire could have came out of that war far better if it would just stuck with it and used its assets correctly.

 

Giving up some rights is better than forcing hundreds/thousands of civilians to give up their lives to protect those freedoms, like when the cost of the war is too high to justify the reward of keeping it.

 

Problem is, NO ONE WHO WASN'T GOING TO BE IN THE FIGHTING ANYWAY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE FIGHTING.

 

Sorry for that but I can't help but hammer this point in. You guys act like if the Empire didn't end the war then and there that the Dominion would have invaded everybody and plunged the whole continent into war, but fact of the matter is, that the Dominion didn't do this shows they never could have. If the Dominion could actually invade the rest of the Empire, why would it wait? It has no reason to accept a modest sampling when it could have the whole damn pig.

 

both sides were badly beaten from the war, i do not think either side had the military power to make anymore demands, the emperor had little strength and could not make any demands. That is the WGC, the result of a war that ended with little strength left to make any demands, so the AD stuck to the original.

 

Except the Empire had all of the strength to make demands. Compare the two forces:

 

Dominion: Three provinces. One's exhausting its troop supply (which make up almost its entire army), one is slowly killing itself while also exhausting its troop supply, and the other isn't getting involved militarily and is at best only providing supplies.

 

Lost an entire invasion army + the reinforcements they needed to push out the Legion in Cyrodiil. Also currently wasting away an entirely separate invasion army on a force that it is doomed to stalemate against.

 

 

Empire: 5 Provinces. One can't fight anymore, another is being invaded and is going to be relatively okay no matter what (even despite the ravaging). Two haven't seen the war and never will. And the other is irrelevant as it blew up a century prior.

 

Lost only half its main grouping of its army, and half of that force can still fight. Still has the forces in Hammerfel fighting (which are going to do well even without any real support from the Empire), and Skyrim and High Rock are prime to provide fresh troops and supplies to support Hammerfel and Cyrodiil. Meanwhile, the forces in Cyrodiil have no reason have no reason to go on the offensive again and what troops can still fight can simply be used in a purely defensive capacity on Cyrodiil's borders (which are mostly abandoned at this point, so even if the war reaches the border again, no civilians will be caught in the cross fire)

 

 

Long story short, the Empire had everything even despite its lossses whereas the Dominion was on its way to the grave.

 

 

From what I know about the lore, here's my take:

 

Both sides have noble goals, both sides are fighting for what's right, but when you really examine the sides, the Stormcloaks are the "bad guys" if you have to choose one. The history behind the conflict is that the Thalmor and the Empire were at war, so to avoid destroying the empire entirely, the Imperials decided to make a truce with the Thalmor, which was agreed upon on the condition that Talos worship ceased. The Empire had no intention of ever keeping the peace or permanently banning Talos worship; this was merely a period of time to allow the empire and its citizens to recover. The Stormcloak soldiers are fighting to restore the Talos worship that was banned in the treaty with the Thalmor. However, when thoroughly examined, you can see that Ulfric is mainly out for power and himself and he did not follow the tradition of the Nords of fighting the High King for power, but instead took a cheap shot at the king to kill him. So in a nutshell: the Stormcloaks want a noble goal, but are short-sighted and follow a corrupt leader, Ulfric.

 

Nope. The Dominion couldn't have destroyed the Empire after the War of the Red Ring. If they couldn't waltz over Hammerfel, one province, in the 5 years they spent fighting them, they weren't going to waltz over the rest of the Empire. There might not have been the ability to invade the Dominion at the time, but there was no way the Empire was going to lose against the Dominion. Hell, after the War of the Red Ring, the Empire could have easily demanded the surrender of the Dominion, or at the least a non-negotiable, non-conditioned truce. The Empire had more than enough resources to draw on to both support Hammerfel and defend other borders. (without committing exhausted troops mind you)

 

And no, you can't just take the time (or rather, this much time) to recover with the Dominion, and certainly not in the way that they did. You're giving the Dominion back their advantage by waiting things out with them and giving them free reign to undermine your entire Empire. Indecisiveness hesitation, and appeasement will not win you the war against the Dominion.

 

No, the Empire gave up because the Empire only cares about Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was the ONLY province during that war that was suffering heavily that the Empire actually cared about. Hammerfel was suffering just as bad as Cyrodiil was, but the Emperor ordered it abandoned in an attempt to take back the Imperial City. Did you catch that? The Emperor, ordered Hammerfel abandoned, to save Cyrodiil. And then he decides to give the Dominion what it wanted, purely because Cyrodiil was in bad shape, but according to the Empire's leadership, they were "sparing" the rest of the Empire.

 

But lets look at the facts here. Cyrodiil was in bad shape. So was Hammerfel. At the wars conclusion, Cyrodiil was completely empty of Dominion forces and had enough troops to at least defend borders. Hammerfel was still fighting the Dominion. Skyrim and High Rock were comfortable up in the North, never seeing the war in any shape or form. Morrowind was already more or less ravaged and destroyed even before the war, and it wouldn't have been important to base any decision on sparing it from a fight. (as there's nothing there to defend really)

 

So, that's one province that's actually seeing the war, and is going to see it regardless of whether or not the war ends. Two provinces wrecked (one destroyed before the war, one destroyed during), with one completely void of the force that wrecked it but still with the capacity to defend its own borders, the other totally unimportant to anything. And two provinces that haven't seen any damage and can totally support everyone else if managed correctly.

 

So what was the Emperor sparing exactly? Only Cyrodiil from the utter "horror" of having another enemy soldier step foot in it, even though the Dominion would have been stupid to even order of their own to do so at that point. Any man with the knowledge of what was going on in Tamriel at the time and a fairly decent intelligence would have been able to see that. And its not like you could say it was out of fear of some magical Deus X Machina that the Dominion was holding back, because if the Dominion had that why would they have stopped fighting? If they could take the Empire down after the War of the Red Ring, they would have. They had zero reason not to if they had such an ability. But they didn't have such an ability, which is the only reason the Dominion even gave the Empire's truce a bother. (also didn't help that the Empire was offering everything they demanded of the Empire in the first place). The fact that they couldn't take Hammerfel after 5 years proves that even further, as well as the fact that they couldn't have taken on the rest of the Empire in that time either.

 

Long story short, you're buying into total political BS made up to cover the Emperor's selfish desire to spare Cyrodiil (which didn't have to and wouldn't have seen another minute of the war anyway) at the expense of everyone else in the Empire, and only making things worse by supporting their continued "peace" with the Dominion.

 

 

And no, Ulfric is not a power-hungry racist. This has been disproven so many times over by now that I'm simply not going to bother going into it again. And getting caught up on tradition, as if he's obligated (is he obligated to you? Did he promise you he'd follow Nordic tradition to the letter and not stray from it an inch?) to be following it to the letter, is dumb, to put it plainly. Fact of the matter is, he was making a statement by invoking tradition in his duel with Torygg, just as he was making a statement with everything he did the day Torygg died.

 

He invokes tradition, he shows that he remembers what Skyrim was and what it by all means still should be. He also disproves the king as being wise (one of the two greatest traits of the greatest Kings). A king so unwise as to require himself to wait on the word of some insignificant Jarl's son (and to accept his challenge to his rule no less, given his weak physical fortitude) does not deserve to be a king.

 

He challegnes the High King. He shows he won't bow to a leader that couldn't act in Skyrim's best interests.

 

He disarms the High King with the power of the Thu'um, showing his closeness to the Nordic past and the time when Skyrim was not a country of weak men and women. A time when an army of Skyrim was feared, not folded and forgotten into a faceless cabal of a failing power.

 

He slays him, showing that the High King did not deserve his title. A High King cannot defend his country if he cannot defend himself, especially against some insignificant Jarl's son.

 

Skyrim's best interest is the Empire, even though that's a good argument you put up there about the Empire needing to have pressed the advantage in that last war. Hammerfell held out against the Aldmeri in part because the Aldmeri had gotten quite beat-up, too. A Skyrim that's outright hostile to the Empire is going to just make both Skyrim and what remains of the Empire easier to destroy.

 

That said, I totally can't buy into any argument which has as a major premise that assassinating a king just because you can, makes you a good guy.

 

That would be true of the Empire was still the same Empire it was 200 years ago. But its not. The Empire you're trying to save has already been destroyed. I still don't understand how Empire supporters can look at that very simple fact and still believe what they're fighting for is worth it.

 

Further, only Cyrodiil could possibly be taken in the next war with the Dominion unless the Dominion is given the 50-75 extra years it needs to build up the forces necessary to directly take on every army that can be mustered throughout Tamriel. And thats only because as of Skyrim's events, the Empire's national structure (IE, Cyrodiil's national structure) is falling apart rather rapidly. Meanwhile everyone else is remaining more or less stable and capable. As for Skyrim, no Dominion army (Unless that one that could be built some 50 years down the line) would be able to successfully invade it. There's a reason you don't invade a mountainous country (when your only feasible route of entry is through the mountains no less) populated by a people who on average, are going to be individually stronger and more prepared to fight in a direct ground war than your own forces. And you especially don't do that when you have another two or 3 other hostile countries to invade (one of which has already fought you and will be even harder to combat) before you can even get near Skyrim.

 

Even if the Civil War leaves Skyrim less than ready to get back into it again, the Dominion will still have an extremely hard time successfully taking over Skyrim, very much less the rest of Tamriel. Eventually the Dominion will either have to give up again or exhaust their resources until they can't continue.

 

And Ulfric didn't kill the king (assassinate is an inaccurate term) "just because he can".

 

And Mac hit the head on the nail.

 

And a post from a while ago back on the official forums:

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1342199-stormcloak-or-imperial-legion/page__view__findpost__p__20234952

[Moraelin]

I don't have to prove illogical nonsense wrong, as long as you didn't support it as being correct in the first place. I don't have to accept a reversal of the burden of proof, and you don't get to be right about stuff you pulled out of the butt until proven wrong. Expecting to be right until proven wrong is exactly an argument from ignorance fallacy.

 

Undermining some bogus unsupported claims is exactly what I'm entitled to do, as long as you haven't met your burden of proof.

 

Also, logic is not something that's up for bargaining. It's about 2500 years too late to argue that we should go by sophistry instead. You could maybe argue that you don't have to go by correct logic back then, but nowadays it's patently ridiculous.

 

But, yes, I can't tell you to make logical sense, but it still means you're illogical if you don't, and I don't have to take any of that illogical nonsense seriously.

 

Your position so far rested on bogus stuff like:

 

- Plain falsehoods, like that there are no houses in the game for the Dunmer to buy. You can't build any sound inference from false premises. The premises being true is right in the definition of logical soundness.

 

- Special pleading fallacy, i.e., trying to introduce irrelevant distinctions like 'yeah, but that was made by a foreign invader and this isn't' although there is nothing in the definition of racial discrimination that requires such a condition. The discrimination and eventual genocide between Tutsi and Hutu in Rwanda that eventually culminated in their civil war was between two local, native ethnic groups. The idea that it doesn't count if it's not a foreign invader is plain special pleading fallacy. And a fallacy is a name for broken logic. I don't have to do more than point out it's a textbook fallacy to "prove you wrong". The conclusion just doesn't follow, if the road between the premise and it goes through such a fallacy.

 

- Stuff that is basically unknown. It's not provable wrong, but there is nothing in the game to prove it right either. You don't know stuff like soil quality or all the other factors you handwaved, you don't know if all the land is up for grabs or needs some approval from the Jarl (e.g., hunters you meet in that land complain about being accused of poaching the Jarl's deer, which would indicate that it's not a no-man's land), etc. You can't just postulate the missing parts of the lore. And in logic you can't just postulate a premise. You can't build a sound "X => Y" when X is an unsupported axiom you just made up. Again, the premises being true is right in the definition of logical soundness.

 

Postulating what that particular instance of "self-govern" means or what is the purpose of ancient duels is in this category too.

 

- Stuff which you try to shoehorn in the previous category. You dismiss actual in-game sources as, basically, lying, then try to shoehorn your own postulates in their stead. It doesn't work like that. Even IF those sources were all somehow in a conspiracy (though some don't even live in the same place) to tell the same lie to every stranger they meet, in the absence of other sources, that would get you back to the previous problem: then it's unknown. You don't get to make up stuff even then.

 

Though again, even getting to unknown would require a bit more support: is there any actual information in the game that would imply they're lying? Does that conspiracy play in any way in any plot? Do you have any indication that Bethesda was trying to say anything else than exactly that a bunch of Nords are a bunch of xenophobes? I mean, sure, they could, but what do you base that on? You don't get to just distrust that they really meant that the Nords are xenophobic, and fill in you own invented lore instead.

 

- Circular logic, a.k.a., the Begging The Question fallacy. You explain the problems of the Dunmer (and not just: Niranye is a high elf and what she proudly describes is exactly overcoming prejudice against her) by their being lazy, yet their being lazy is unsupported by anything more than their having those problems and your disbelief that any conditions could exist that explain it too. That goes in a circle. If you want to base anything on the Elves being lazy, then you have to support that being lazy first, and do it based on other stuff than the conclusion it supports.

 

Etc.

 

You made some positive claims there. E.g., that the Dunmer are lazy is exactly a claim that an objective difference exists. Any claim, even implicit ones, boiling out to "X exists" or "Y happens" gives you the burden of proof fair and square. It's not my job to disprove or debate the negative. It's yours to support the positive.

 

It's the same as if I said that a fine china teapot is in orbit between the Earth and Mars, to borrow Bertrand Russell's example. If I'm making the claim to that existence, I get the burden of proof. I wouldn't get to be right unless someone "disproves" or "debates" its existence. Before there's anything to disprove or debate, it must be supported in the first place. And poking holes in the logic is exactly the right thing to do for such a bogus claim.

[Deleted4666244User]

i am arguing the tradition of ascension by ancient tradition over becoming high king by tradition of trial by combat

 

The Trial by combat is meant to depose the High King and his family.

 

As I've said elsewhere, you don't duel a High King for his throne just so his wife or his sons or whoever else in the line of ascension can take it. There is no point in it and these duels NEVER would have been created to serve that purpose. If that purpose needs to be had, a simple and clear assassination is in order. Not a trial by combat.

 

the book Skyrim's rule states and i quote "The High King or Queen typically inherits the throne by birth and rules for life or until abdication. In the event that no direct heir to the throne exists, a specially convened council of all the Jarls, called the Moot, meet with the express purpose of choosing Skyrim's High King

 

I don't see where the High King's death = The High Queen has a claim to his throne.

 

And no, by tradition the Jarl of Solitude doesn't just become High King. Nor does the Jarl of Windhelm. That is a concept created by the Empire installing puppet kings.

 

. Ulfric needs to be voted in, as he was not born into it.

 

ITP: There isn't an impending Moot and much of the Civil War questlines aren't devoted to building up your chosen claimants claim to the throne.

 

but right now, killing Torygg was just Ulfrib being a bully, in my eyes.

 

What are you, 7 or something?

 

my question was legitimate, if ulfric had a real claim to the throne, The elisif would not be the Jarl of Solitude either...Becaus he also killed the Jarl of Solitude in a duel (Torygg was not just high king) :wallbash:

 

why do you guys think Ulfric is trying to Replace the other Jarls, or the empire? it is because they know the other side is holding their leader back. If the other Jarls agree with the candidate, it validates their claim and invalidates the other one's, pure and simple. that is why Ulfric started the Civil war, Tradition did not give him the throne because a majority of the Jarls belong to the empire and as such believe that Elisif is the rightful high queen. Elisif is not high queen because of Ulfric and his "tradition" converting some of the Jarls to his side.

 

tradition does not matter if the Jarls agree with someone else as it is stated in Skyrim's rule "if there is no heir, a moot is convened to choose the next one" it does not matter if he has tradition, if the other Jarls side with Elisif he is thrown to the back of the line, again. it is all about the Jarls, not tradition, because if s, the Elisif would have no claim whatsoever, but she does so what does Ulfric's "tradition" mean if the majority of the Jarls do not agree with him in the first place.

 

Ulfric has to play that way because the Empire is doing exactly the same thing. Do you really believe the Empire will allow a High King to be elected that they can't fully manipulate? With Skyrim being torn and an impending Thalmor threat, they don't really have any other option.

 

i know that, that is what i am saying. Ulfric cannot get the throne because Elisif's Claim being Legitimate by Imperial Law and the ancient tradition of the moot (majority voted for her). Ulfric may have his own tradition that bumped him to the front of the line, but what most stormcloaks don't get is that the Moot chooses the high king, not tradition. the tradition just makes it so that Ulfric is in charge when the moot comes into play, as they would all vote for him. But not this time, so he has to switch the Jarls around so he can use his tradition to get the throne. Just because he has tradition, does not mean he has the vote. he only has part of it. Same with the empire, they may have the majority of the vote, but they do not have all of it.

[Deleted4666244User]

two things:

 

1. A true warrior never kills an unarmed opponent- Ulfric using a shout to disarm the high king, even if it was something like Unrelenting force. if it knocks his weapon out of his hand, he is an unarmed opponent and that makes Ulfric a coward.
   
2. A true warrior never runs away. Ulfric did, he is a coward.
   

 

look at it this way, Ulfric using a shout to disarm the high king, that made him a coward as a warrior has a code of honor where he never kills an unarmed opponent. He ran away, making him more of a coward. Tradition does not make a coward a hero.

[Deleted4666244User]

for those who are reading, i am not saying that Ulfric has no right. He does, but if the other Jarls side with someone else, Ulfric has no chance of getting it, Because the moot did not agree with his tradition.

[sukeban]

@warden

 

If I've said it once, I've said it a dozen times, but something simply being law does not make it right or moral. The Soviet Union had several Constitutions, had Party Congresses, and had its fair share of lawyers too, yet who here would argue that many of these laws were moral or right? Ditto for the United States: Jim Crow was real and was codified by law, as was slavery, as was Prohibition, as were laws denying poor men and women in general the right to vote. Something being Law does not make it moral. Obviously, morality tends to change from generation to generation and from decade to decade, and hopefully, so too do the laws that stem from this apprehension of morality. But to merely state that something "is law and must therefore be correct" is to (to continue the theme of logical fallacies) fall into the "appeal to authority" logical error.

 

That traditions are fine and well and whatever so long as they are actually useful, moral, and relevant for the situation at-hand. Traditions, just like laws, can outlive their usefulness and their moral grounding (unless the tradition is amoral and frivolous, like tossing rice out at a wedding, then it is merely a matter of personal taste). Whilst it might be tradition for Elisif to assume the role of High Queen, it does not mean that such an outcome is morally correct or suitable for the times.

 

What I mean is that the Skyrim tradition arose out of necessity (i.e. to reduce bloodshed during times of leadership transition), but it is useful only so long as it produces capable heirs that are approved of by those that will be governed. If a Nero or a Caligula (or Pelagius!) were the natural heir in Solitude, it would be morally correct that he be deposed and/or prevented from ruling in their first case. Now, Elisif =/= Caligula, but I am not convinced that she is at all a capable ruler of Skyrim, especially in times of crisis. I base this conviction upon her in-game attitude toward governance, in which she seems to hold no solid opinions (or knowledge!) whatsoever and is easily manipulated by strong-willed advisers around her. The strongest of these "strong wills" is, of course, Tullius, a man whose primary concern is for Cyrodiil rather than Skyrim, so Elisif would be ruling with the same Empire-first approach as Torygg, subjugating the interests of Skyrim to those of the Empire.

 

Furthermore, mentioning the Moot is valid only so far as its functioning is moral and unimpaired by corruption, be that Imperial or Stormcloak. In any case, to state that the Moot is somehow currently representative of the collective will of Skyrim's people is madness, as the "chests of gold" comment by Avenicci proves beyond a doubt. Prior to Ulfric, Imperial gold had flowed to all of the Jarls in Skyrim, buying their votes in the Moot for their favored candidate, the Jarl of Solitude. After this precedent had been established, the right of legal challenge was outlawed, to deny any opponents of the Empire from ever disputing the rule of the Solitude heirs (the largest Imperial clients of them all).

 

To insist that the Moot is somehow an objective, disinterested body is to be willfully obtuse, to be the proverbial ostrich burying its head in the sand. It is like saying that "money plays no part in American politics" or some such nonsense. Yes, I am sure that political contributions don't buy influence in Congress *rolls eyes* influence that ordinary Americans can never expect to have. Such is the Imperial role in the functioning of the Moot, that of big-money donors in the American political system. This, of course, swings both ways, as I am sure that Ulfric (even though it is never mentioned) would be providing a certain quid pro quo to his favored Jarls if he actually had something to bribe them with.

 

@Moraelin

 

I'll be as brief as possible.

 

The Dunmer are hardly solely responsible for their situation in Windhelm, but to absolve them of any blame is to fundamentally remove from them their agency as a people. At best, this would be mildly insulting to Dunmer, at worst it falls into the same (if well intentioned) bigotry of the bleeding-heart liberal, blaming all unfortunate circumstances on factors "beyond the victim's control," removing blame from the victim, yes, but also insinuating that the victim is a child and cannot be trusted to do things for themselves. I know that's not what you're saying, but I'd like to point it out for others.

 

The Dunmer ARE insular and rather clannish, arrogant and supercilious (Morrowind, oh baby!). They are also wicked cool (once you cut through the facade). Truth be told, most Dunmer don't even have a facade to cut through and are just nice people to begin with. I would say that Ambarys does more to set back the cause of the Dunmer in Windhelm as much as any of the bigoted, drunken Nords do. He is like Malcolm X but without the intellect and with far fewer injustices to confront. Most Dunmer in Windhelm are hard-working and just want a peaceful life, same as any Nord or anybody else. Dunmer that employ Nords (and vice versa) are the first, best step toward both sides realizing that they aren't really that different at all.

 

I don't know about using things like vacant housing or whatever to prove any sort of point, as it takes the Dragonborn veritably forever to be allowed to buy Hjerim, Nord or otherwise.

 

TLDR; Both sides are at fault, I'd say 60/40 Nords.

[Lisnpuppy]

This one is a dead horse just like the other...and basically is the other thread on who is the bad guy. Say bye bye to this one as its gone as far as its gonna go.~Lisnpuppy