Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[Stemin]

So I guess Ulfric is on Alduin's side as well? Is he on the side of the Tsaesci or the Ka Po' Tun?

 

Just because Ulfric is being a benefit to the Dominion doesn't make his war a bad thing. Any other enemy to the Empire causing issues for the Empire would be a benefit to the Dominion.

 

No, but it certainly doesn't make him an intelligent leader for going out of his way to not only provoke them, but play right into their hands. You seem to be forgetting that all signs point to the fact that the Empire isn't happy about the Thalmor either, but they fought to a stalemate and had to regroup and accept what happened for the time being. Ulfric is doing nothing but weakening them further.

 

And no, its doubtful the Thalmor thought Ulfric predictable. What most likely happened is that in the middle of torturing him (or simply watching rot away in his cage, Ulfric did what any Nord would have done and vowed vengeance against the Empire that fed him to the Thalmor and basically used him for his prowess. And considering his role in Markarth they likely knew he could actually make due on that vow, at least enough to cause a problem for the Empire.

 

What difference does it make? The point is, they let him go so he would do exactly what he did. Weaken their enemies.

 

 

 

 

I can't recall the source, but I also read that the Snow Elves declared war on mankind due to intolerance (they were alarmed at the rate at which man was breeding) and were initially successful. Then Ysgramor and the 500 Companions showed up and turned it around. The Snow Elves then scurried away underground and met the Dwemer, who treated the former so badly they became the Falmer. In the Summerset Isles, the Thalmor were a small faction, tolerated by the Altmer. The Altmer could have wiped them out, but they didn't. How did the Thalmor repay the Altmer? By taking control of the Isles, during the Oblivion Crisis. This is how elves treat each other? It seems to me that there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the elves aren't exactly innocent and don't even treat each other very well. Yet some people don't pay much attention to it, preferring to call the Nords racist. If two races behave just as badly as each other but you only criticise one of them, I would say that makes YOU racist.

 

Your whole post was insulting, but let me single out this little tidbit. My parents taught me the basic lesson that two wrongs don't make a right. Arguing that the elves are racist doesn't make Ulfric not racist for hating all elves. The fact that you went so far as to imply that is quite astounding to me.

 

Not to mention there's not a single person in this thread that's defended the Thalmor that I remember seeing. That's not anywhere near the point.

[MacSuibhne]

 

It must be very easy to dismiss other people's words as "often emotional, opinions, interpretations, slander and rants." when you just plain ignore what they're saying.

 

Or questioning someone's ability to debate?

 

Pot calling the kettle black

 

I have yet to see a case made that Ulfric is racist that does not ignore facts..little but telling facts--.like the dark (?) elf living/farming just outside of Windhelm with a female Nord employee (surely within his jurisdiction?).

 

Or doesn't speculatively assign motives to Ulfric that we cannot possibly know.

 

Or a case made that doesn't drag all kinds of contemporary angst and rhetoric into what is essentially a medieval setting. One that doesn't tailor the definition of racism to arrive at a foregone conclusion.

 

Or a a case made that Ulfric is a "pr*ck" without resorting to partisan appellations that might reasonably be questioned by someone with a different emotional POV.

 

By all means, make one.

 

Speaking of points of view...does the word "collaboration" strike a familiar note?

 

Why do you play Skyrim if not to escape all that crap? Why jabber about rising above our baser natures (not necessarily you, personally) and then play a warrior or a thief or an assassin...presumably without guilt. If nothing else it's pandering pure and simple to our "baser natures."

 

Maybe Bethesda ought to consider another character--the Tendentious Missionary of We know Better Now.

Edited May 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Stemin]

 

It must be very easy to dismiss other people's words as "often emotional, opinions, interpretations, slander and rants." when you just plain ignore what they're saying.

 

Or questioning someone's ability to debate?

 

Pot calling the kettle black

 

Is english even your first language? Because at this point I'm questioning whether you understand what's going on in this thread. What does asking a question about where someone learned to debate have to do with ignoring facts that are presented in a discussion?

 

My question was perfectly valid when people start talking about what they think is going on in Cyradiil. It doesn't matter what he thinks is going on. Those are not facts, and therefore are not something to bring to a debate as evidence of something. You know. What you've been claiming all along is going on in this thread against Ulfric?

 

The person I quoted went on a 3 paragraph dissertation based on his opinion of what the Thalmor would be doing at this time. None of it was facts.

 

I have yet to see a case made that Ulfric is racist that does not ignore facts..little but telling facts--.like the dark (?) elf living/farming just outside of Windhelm with a female Nord employee (surely within his jurisdiction?).

 

Why don't we start with this post way back on page 4 that was addressed to you and you ignored. I'm not going to bother to go find the rest because I don't believe for a second you're going to change your mind. Your reply to me was filled with more rhetoric. Dancing around the topic isn't scoring any brownie points with me:

 

"Racism" is just the politically correct buzzword du jour. I don't think there's any real evidence of racism on Ulfric's part. It's a transposition of a 21st century malaise.

 

Ulfic forcing dark elves to live in slums and prohibiting the Argonians from entering the city is in fact discrimination and suppression based on racial characteristics. the following is a quote from the Elder Scrolls Wiki:

"After the eruption of Red Mountain, many Dunmer fled to Windhelm. Because of heightened suspicion generated by the ongoing Civil War, the strongly nationalist Nords of Windhelm sequestered the Dunmer from the other citizens in what came to be known as the "Gray Quarter," in reference to the Dunmer skin color. Argonians are also segregated from the Nord population and are forced to live at the Argonian Assemblage at the city docks.

 

When Ulfric Stormcloak became Jarl, he separated the Dunmer and Argonian immigrants from the native Nord population, and founded the militia that would become the Stormcloaks.

 

It is suggested, through dialogue with Viola Giordano, that the Dunmer are taxed more heavily than the Nords, and that these taxes can be raised at the Jarl's whim"

 

Speaking of points of view...does the word "collaboration" strike a familiar note?

 

Why do you play Skyrim if not to escape all that crap?

 

Here you go making more assumptions.

 

Why jabber about rising above our baser natures (not necessarily you, personally) and then play a warrior or a thief or an assassin...presumably without guilt. If nothing else it's pandering pure and simple to our "baser natures."

 

Maybe Bethesda ought to consider another character--the Tendentious Missionary of We know Better Now.

 

Regardless of what actions I choose to make in-game, those are in-game. It has nothing to do with having a discussion about the merits of a fictional character. Stop dancing around the subject.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Stemin

[imperistan]

No, but it certainly doesn't make him an intelligent leader for going out of his way to not only provoke them, but play right into their hands. You seem to be forgetting that all signs point to the fact that the Empire isn't happy about the Thalmor either, but they fought to a stalemate and had to regroup and accept what happened for the time being. Ulfric is doing nothing but weakening them further.

 

Except it wasn't a stalemate. The Empire WON. As in, they outright DEFEATED the Dominion. And Emperor McGee still let the Dominion reap the rewards anyway. You can't even use the excuse of the Empire not being able to continue on either. Hammerfel proves that. If the Dominion couldn't bring the hammer down on Hammerfel and take it (when it was just one province with no help from anyone else whatsoever) then they could NEVER have done it to the rest of the Empire.

 

Many in the Empire might be wanting to fight the Dominion, but their leadership isn't, and especially not any time soon. And that's the problem.

 

Also, its kind of silly to talk of the Empire as if its really the only thing stopping the Dominion from just walking in and taking over. Its not, and the Dominion (Empire or not) could never hope to just walk in and take over the rest of the Empire. If the Dominion could do that, they would have done it already. The Dominion has no reason to maintain the WGC other than to keep the Empire pacified and under their watchful eye until they can outright overpower them.

 

As I said, you're playing into the Dominion's hands by playing the waiting game (just as you are by not listening to your subjects most absolutely correct assertions that you have to keep fighting the Dominion).

 

What difference does it make? The point is, they let him go so he would do exactly what he did. Weaken their enemies.

 

Okay. And?

 

Arguing that the elves are racist doesn't make Ulfric not racist for hating all elves.

 

He wasn't arguing that. He was arguing that its rather hypocritical to criticize for racism against a particular race, when that particular race would be doing no different if the roles were reversed. Its still bad that racism is going on, but honestly, it isn't actually a problem one way or the other. This isn't a time in Tamriel's history for a Civil Rights movement to spur, and unlike in the real world, racism isn't a relevant problem in Tamriel.

 

If you went into Tamriel and started going on about racism, you'd be laughed at by almost everyone. Those that wouldn't laugh would be those that agree with you, but they in all likelihood would just question why you're going off about a total non-issue. There's a war going on and dragon's coming back. What does the farmer care if some guy thinks elf's smell funny?

[MacSuibhne]

 

Regardless of what actions I choose to make in-game, those are in-game. It has nothing to do with having a discussion about the merits of a fictional character. Stop dancing around the subject.

 

Ad hominem attacks such as questioning people's understanding of English or ability to debate only serve to camouflage the fact that your own understanding of the subject and the reasons why we post here is sadly skewed.

.

I am who I am...I speak and write the way I speak and write. I have written three books (technical but still requiring some mastery of the English language). If you don't like what I have to say or the way I say it...tough. Deal with it or move on.

 

I have not committed to either side. I post to this forum at least partially to be convinced or even influenced one way or the other. Frankly the emotionalism...including your own almost Jacobean intensity...that flows from those favouring the Empire is almost enough to convince me that Ulfric's side is the correct one...even if he is a racist.

 

I've read all the posts and all the self-righteous finger wagging about the Grey Quarter. It isn't enough to convince me, especially in the face of all those little but telling fact that give it the lie. Whatever the reason, it's not clearly, "irrefutably" racism. The way I see it, Ulfric doesn't have time to cater to people who are not with him and very well may be insidiously working to undermine him. No one in the Grey Quarter pays taxes or is, in any other way, expected to support the Stormcloak rebellion. But they are not kicked out either. They are free to make lives for themselves without fear, for the most part.

 

Worshippers of Talos, on the other hand...

 

And for that matter, every race in Skyrim...or should I say species...is xenophobic at the very least. The elves would like nothing better than to wipe out men and with the help of the Empire may eventually succeed.

 

Again, make the case...I'm slow witted and from Missouri. If you can't, then let it go. If you won't, take a hike...or put me on your ignore list.

[MacSuibhne]

If you went into Tamriel and started going on about racism, you'd be laughed at by almost everyone. Those that wouldn't laugh would be those that agree with you, but they in all likelihood would just question why you're going off about a total non-issue. There's a war going on and dragon's coming back. What does the farmer care if some guy thinks elf's smell funny?

 

I think that's right.

 

I suspect that there is an element of self-righteousness in those harping on the issue of racism. It's a non-issue in the context, its a non-issue in the game, and it's hypocritical to preach to others when you deliberately choose to assume the role of a thief or assassin or some other immoral/less-than-honourable character.

 

I doubt any of us play Skyrim...or more importantly,post here...for the sermons.

 

Or the English lessons.

Edited May 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[StayFrosty05]

^ Well, that "certain age" doesn't always correspond to actual chronological age. But by your own admission you have a problem with authority. I'm not going to get into whether that is a good thing or not, I suspect that the human race needs people of both kinds.

 

But there is no "irrefutable evidence" that Ulfric is a racist or a "pr*ck"--just biased, and often emotional, opinions, interpretations, slander and rants.

 

And FWIW, I am a 66 year old male.

 

Parenthetically, I did not intend to "mis-interpret" your posting...I try not to do that--just take at face value what is there. To the extent that my post offends you, I regret it.

 

I am also strongly suggesting that blindly following authority is just as dangerous and destructive as anarchy....I do not call that 'immature' as you are suggesting, that is more commonly known as thinking for oneself other than allowing others to do the thinking for you....Both extremes lead to disaster.

 

As for Ulfric....the first Skyrim game I played in regards to the Civil War....I spent most of my time questioning every NPC with dialog relating to the situation...including Ulfric, his sidekick, Tullius and Rikke...I felt like I was stuck between a rock and a hard place as Ulfric and Tullius are both very grey....You mentioned Winston Churchill earlier, he was a needed leader in time of war, a tough line politician able to make the hard needed decisions, for times of peace though he was unsuitable....I see Ulfric as suited in a similar fashion, his a soldier (a General), not a Governor of a country....My final choice in whom I decided to join was purely a political choice based on the rather inadequate information available in the game...would have liked more questions answered, but it's a game, so had to make the choice with what I had.

 

As for calling Ulfric a pr*ck...yes, that is a reaction to the information I received in game, plus his behavior at the Greybeard Summit...though admittedly I have not seen Tullius use the summit as a stage to make a move for extra benefits (not the time or place)...as I have always kicked Elenwyn from the table...I do not believe the Thalmor have a place at the summit....Though I suspect if I allowed Elenwyn to stay Tullius would be as great an idiot as Ulfric, though at the end of the day Tullius is not the one left in charge if the Empire wins the war....And do note I have not mentioned racism.

 

Here's a question for you....if you are American you may find this more interesting (I'm Australian)...find out why the Eagle on the American Coat of Arms is clutching the bundle of Arrows...it's the same as my pivotal reason as to why I ultimately decided to side with the Empire.

Edited May 23, 2012 by StayFrosty05

[Stemin]

Except it wasn't a stalemate. The Empire WON. As in, they outright DEFEATED the Dominion. And Emperor McGee still let the Dominion reap the rewards anyway. You can't even use the excuse of the Empire not being able to continue on either. Hammerfel proves that. If the Dominion couldn't bring the hammer down on Hammerfel and take it (when it was just one province with no help from anyone else whatsoever) then they could NEVER have done it to the rest of the Empire.

 

This is absolutely incorrect according to in game lore. The AD invaded and took over large parts of the Empire. Their target was Hammerfell, but when they realized how much success they were having they drove forward and actually took over most of the Imperial city. The Empire fought back and dislodged the AD from the Imperial City, but the Emperor decided his troops were too exhausted to fully defeat the AD, so he wrote up the White Gold Concordant. As part of the treaty talks the AD wanted Hammerfell. When the representatives from Hammerfell opposed this, and since the Emperor renounced Hammerfell as part of the treaty, Hammerfell went to war with the AD on their own.

 

And actually despite the fact that most gamers seem to think Hammerfell won, they did not in fact win either. They held the AD to a stalemate for 5 years, until both sides met and signed yet another treaty.

 

Many in the Empire might be wanting to fight the Dominion, but their leadership isn't, and especially not any time soon. And that's the problem.

 

No, it's not the problem. It was a smart tactic at the time. Buy yourself time to recover and build your strength. Unfortunately Ulfric set that plan back probably an entire lifetime by starting a bloody pointless Civil War. And yes, I do say pointless, because eventually the Empire would have done exactly what Ulfric wanted. You don't run an independent government by giving up your ruling rights to a neighboring nation.

 

Also, its kind of silly to talk of the Empire as if its really the only thing stopping the Dominion from just walking in and taking over. Its not, and the Dominion (Empire or not) could never hope to just walk in and take over the rest of the Empire. If the Dominion could do that, they would have done it already. The Dominion has no reason to maintain the WGC other than to keep the Empire pacified and under their watchful eye until they can outright overpower them.

 

Where did I say any of that?

 

 

He wasn't arguing that. He was arguing that its rather hypocritical to criticize for racism against a particular race, when that particular race would be doing no different if the roles were reversed. Its still bad that racism is going on, but honestly, it isn't actually a problem one way or the other. This isn't a time in Tamriel's history for a Civil Rights movement to spur, and unlike in the real world, racism isn't a relevant problem in Tamriel.

 

There's no proof that the elves in Skyrim would do the same thing. There are some racist elves in Skyrim, but most of them are refugees from other provinces and they're too busy worrying about getting along and surviving to be racist. There are some, but it's not like the Thalmor.

 

Just like I haven't argued that all Stormcloaks are racist. The point is, their leader is.

 

If you went into Tamriel and started going on about racism, you'd be laughed at by almost everyone. Those that wouldn't laugh would be those that agree with you, but they in all likelihood would just question why you're going off about a total non-issue. There's a war going on and dragon's coming back. What does the farmer care if some guy thinks elf's smell funny?

 

Yeah, if I went to Tamriel and used the word "racist" they probably would look at me funny because it's a modern word, but if you think for a moment that if I went into Tamriel and went to the Elves and talked to them about being treated badly because they're elves it wouldn't be a whole different story then I think you're just being stubborn.

[Stemin]

Ad hominem attacks such as questioning people's understanding of English or ability to debate only serve to camouflage the fact that your own understanding of the subject and the reasons why we post here is sadly skewed.

 

Attacks? You are aware that not everyone on this forum speaks english yes? It's perfectly reasonable to ask if there's a reason someone doesn't understand something that I feel they ought to. Once again you make assumptions.

 

I am who I am...I speak and write the way I speak and write. I have written three books (technical but still requiring some mastery of the English language). If you don't like what I have to say or the way I say it...tough. Deal with it or move on.

 

It's not your writing that bothers me it's your content. You elaborate needlessly without making any points. You reference no facts. Even after I called you out on it, you still glossed over the post that I made without disputing it except to say that it isn't "irrefutable".

 

I have not committed to either side. I post to this forum at least partially to be convinced or even influenced one way or the other. Frankly the emotionalism...including your own almost Jacobean intensity...that flows from those favouring the Empire is almost enough to convince me that Ulfric's side is the correct one...even if he is a racist.

 

It's oh so ironic to me that you used the term emotionlism to describe those of us who favor the Empire who mostly uses logic, while the Stormcloaks who you seem to lean towards, and in particular Ulfric Stormcloak are totally driven by emotion.

 

And in fact my "emotions" are driven purely by the fact that you seem to delight in telling everyone else they're wrong without making any points at all that support the other side. Oh I'm sorry... I mean you delight in telling people that their evidence isn't "irrefutable" while you present no "irrefutable" evidence of your own. My bad. :rolleyes:

 

I've read all the posts and all the self-righteous finger wagging about the Grey Quarter. It isn't enough to convince me, especially in the face of all those little but telling fact that give it the lie. Whatever the reason, it's not clearly, "irrefutably" racism. The way I see it, Ulfric doesn't have time to cater to people who are not with him and very well may be insidiously working to undermine him. No one in the Grey Quarter pays taxes or is, in any other way, expected to support the Stormcloak rebellion. But they are not kicked out either. They are free to make lives for themselves without fear, for the most part.

 

Like I said. You gloss over real facts, and just come to the conclusion that since it's not irrefutable then it can't be right.

 

Worshippers of Talos, on the other hand...

 

And for that matter, every race in Skyrim...or should I say species...is xenophobic at the very least. The elves would like nothing better than to wipe out men and with the help of the Empire may eventually succeed.

 

Let me correct you. You're talking about the Thalmor. Not elves in general. That my friend is the racism that you seem to feel is just a "buzz word". And technically we don't know that every member of the Thalmor are bad.

 

Again, make the case...I'm slow witted and from Missouri. If you can't, then let it go. If you won't, take a hike...or put me on your ignore list.

 

An excellent suggestion. Anyone that spends so much time telling everyone else their wrong, while putting up zero facts to support their own agenda is no one I want to have a second conversation with.

[Georgiegril]

 

 

 

 

I have yet to see a case made that Ulfric is racist that does not ignore facts..little but telling facts--.like the dark (?) elf living/farming just outside of Windhelm with a female Nord employee (surely within his jurisdiction?).

 

Or doesn't speculatively assign motives to Ulfric that we cannot possibly know.

 

Or a case made that doesn't drag all kinds of contemporary angst and rhetoric into what is essentially a medieval setting. One that doesn't tailor the definition of racism to arrive at a foregone conclusion.

 

1. The argument that racism is a modern concept is irrelevant, as Skyrim is NOT a medieval earth setting, although it appears stylistically similar. Characters in Skyrim do, in fact, practice racial discrimination constantly, from the guards at Whiterun refusing to let in the Alikrr or Kajiit, to various NPCs making comments to the player on his/her race, to characters in Windhelm looking to put the Dunmer in their place by beating them up.

 

2. Facts do exist plainly to support that Ulfric is actively choosing to discriminate against non-Nords:

The Argonians and dark elves were allowed into the city proper prior to Ulfric's taking command of the city, at which time they were forced into the slums or outside the gates.

 

The statement that racism is a non-issue for the people of Skyrim is also inaccurate: The Dunmer, Argonians and Kajiits consider it a major issue, as evidenced both by various minor questlines and dialogue. An unfair social system is rarely an issue to those who benefit from the injustice--hence it is the rare Nord who will mention it, although there are exceptions.

 

Despite all that, obviously it is the player's choice whether they find racism heinous enough to influence their decision of whether or not to support Ulfric. To suggest that to judge another's values to be unacceptable is unethical if one has other, different values that could also be regarded negatively may be true for arguments sake, but seems to ignore the realities of human nature.