Aurielius Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 When I referred to explosive decompression I was not making allusions to people being sucked out of the aircraft but rather Hypoxia or Barotrauma. A group of average civilians are unlikely to maintain their cool and ALL reach and use the drop down oxygen masks. Some are going to panic and pass out beforehand, that is assuming that all emergency equipment actually functions, given the state of readiness of commercial airlines do you really want to bet on that? There will be sudden loss of altitude in an aircraft that behaves more like a school bus than a sports car. Given that most pilots were ex military they still have to get from approximately 30-35k to below 10k in a bloody hurry with 200 plus screaming panicking passengers. In addition just how many marksman do you think will be able to hit only their target and not another passenger or crew? I shoot at the range every fortnight for the last several decades and would not want to have to make that shot with the attendant pandemonium that would be going on. One stay round that goes into the cockpit and hits either instrumentation or crew is going to seriously lower the survivability odds. This is assuming that there is only one shooter...nope I'd rather have ONE air marshal that is properly trained and equipped, fire the appropriate amount of TSA agents to pay and train him..IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Considering that of late, most hijackers use something like a box cutter, as a weapon.... one guy that actually has a gun would be all that was needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Considering that of late, most hijackers use something like a box cutter, as a weapon.... one guy that actually has a gun would be all that was needed.If we allowed passengers to be armed then NOW he would have a weapon..oh great. Or is there going to be a security check that covers who carries and who does not? I don't know about you but the extra few hours that I have to waste at an airport is already beyond irritating, I cannot imagine what time delay that would impose. Am thinking you will have to arrive the night before and stay in quarantine until boarding....oh joy. :facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco21 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I have a serious issue with letting any tom, dick, or jane carry a gun on a plane that travels routinely at 30,000+ feet. Even a .22 would poke a hole in the pressurized metal tube that the passengers are in... it's only thin aluminum. The result of which would be disastrous. Hypoxia from oxygen deprivation being one of the milder issues. (and even that can kill you..... even if you AREN'T the pilot.) Explosive decompression would really suck.... (blow?) Not how I would like to die thankyouverymuch.You missed the part where there is no explosive decompression, the hole from a gunshot wouldn't bleed air fast enough for that. Not even oxygen deprivation. Unless you suffer hypoxia in strong wings, you have nothing to worry about. When I referred to explosive decompression I was not making allusions to people being sucked out of the aircraft but rather Hypoxia or Barotrauma. A group of average civilians are unlikely to maintain their cool and ALL reach and use the drop down oxygen masks. Some are going to panic and pass out beforehand, that is assuming that all emergency equipment actually functions, given the state of readiness of commercial airlines do you really want to bet on that? There will be sudden loss of altitude in an aircraft that behaves more like a school bus than a sports car. Given that most pilots were ex military they still have to get from approximately 30-35k to below 10k in a bloody hurry with 200 plus screaming panicking passengers. In addition just how many marksman do you think will be able to hit only their target and not another passenger or crew? I shoot at the range every fortnight for the last several decades and would not want to have to make that shot with the attendant pandemonium that would be going on. One stay round that goes into the cockpit and hits either instrumentation or crew is going to seriously lower the survivability odds. This is assuming that there is only one shooter...nope I'd rather have ONE air marshal that is properly trained and equipped, fire the appropriate amount of TSA agents to pay and train him..IMO.It wouldn't happen, the hole wouldn't bleed air fast enough. But even if that were the case, I'd rather take my chance than allow someone to hijack my flight or kill me/my loved ones with a box-cutter because I didn't have adequate tools to defend myself. I don't see it like you guys do. You are all doom and gloom, but I just don't see that as happening. People are stupid, but not as stupid as you make them out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) I have a serious issue with letting any tom, dick, or jane carry a gun on a plane that travels routinely at 30,000+ feet. Even a .22 would poke a hole in the pressurized metal tube that the passengers are in... it's only thin aluminum. The result of which would be disastrous. Hypoxia from oxygen deprivation being one of the milder issues. (and even that can kill you..... even if you AREN'T the pilot.) Explosive decompression would really suck.... (blow?) Not how I would like to die thankyouverymuch.You missed the part where there is no explosive decompression, the hole from a gunshot wouldn't bleed air fast enough for that. Not even oxygen deprivation. Unless you suffer hypoxia in strong wings, you have nothing to worry about. When I referred to explosive decompression I was not making allusions to people being sucked out of the aircraft but rather Hypoxia or Barotrauma. A group of average civilians are unlikely to maintain their cool and ALL reach and use the drop down oxygen masks. Some are going to panic and pass out beforehand, that is assuming that all emergency equipment actually functions, given the state of readiness of commercial airlines do you really want to bet on that? There will be sudden loss of altitude in an aircraft that behaves more like a school bus than a sports car. Given that most pilots were ex military they still have to get from approximately 30-35k to below 10k in a bloody hurry with 200 plus screaming panicking passengers. In addition just how many marksman do you think will be able to hit only their target and not another passenger or crew? I shoot at the range every fortnight for the last several decades and would not want to have to make that shot with the attendant pandemonium that would be going on. One stay round that goes into the cockpit and hits either instrumentation or crew is going to seriously lower the survivability odds. This is assuming that there is only one shooter...nope I'd rather have ONE air marshal that is properly trained and equipped, fire the appropriate amount of TSA agents to pay and train him..IMO.It wouldn't happen, the hole wouldn't bleed air fast enough. But even if that were the case, I'd rather take my chance than allow someone to hijack my flight or kill me/my loved ones with a box-cutter because I didn't have adequate tools to defend myself. I don't see it like you guys do. You are all doom and gloom, but I just don't see that as happening. People are stupid, but not as stupid as you make them out to be. The puncture that I guess you are assuming would be fuselage orientated, there are windows ..a lot of them... which would not take well to a sudden fracture and pressure differential. As for the other, you may have greater confidence in the judgment skills of the average Joe but from what I seen over the years..not so confident as you, at least not enough to bet my life on especially with someone else driving the bus who I have never met. Not all ex military pilots have been in control of a damaged aircraft, the experience is not at all amusing. There are exceptionally cool calm and collected pilots ala Sullenberger...but wouldn't want to test that probability out if I had a choice. Edited May 27, 2012 by Aurielius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco21 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 The windows wont disintegrate from a bullet hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 The simple passage of air thru the hole is going to make the hole bigger.... not to mention how it compromises structural integrity. Consider the age of most of the air fleets today...... Would YOU want to be in one that suddenly sprung a leak? @A: I was suggesting that an Air Marshal with a gun on the plane would be more than adequate to the task for most cases. I don't wanna arm passengers.... oh hell no. I have very little patients with having to be basically turned inside out just to get on a plane.... so, I just don't fly commercial airlines at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) @SycoIf the bullet punctures a window, that's a problem. When or if the window blows, the plane will depressurize over the course of several seconds. Since all of the air in the cabin is rushing toward the said window, a lot of debris will be heading in that direction with it. Does that make a difference in your estimation? Edited May 27, 2012 by Aurielius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco21 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) If the bullet punctures a window, that's a problem. When or if the window blows, the plane will depressurize over the course of several seconds. Since all of the air in the cabin is rushing toward the said window, a lot of debris will be heading in that direction with it. Does that make a difference in your estimation?The window will not blow. A blown window is not enough to cause devastating decompression. The hole will not grow, the windows are reinforced, they are not break away glass. Edited May 27, 2012 by Syco21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bben46 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I have worked with aircraft. Not only is a window sized hole not going be enough to instantly depressurize the cabin, It is NOT glass and WILL NOT shatter. The bullet will make a small round hole in the window - exactly the same size as if it went through the aluminum wall. The Aloha Air disaster in 1988 showed that people do not die from sudden airplane decompression. Most of the injuries were from flying debris when a section of ceiling and walls probably bigger than your bedroom blew off About 20 by 18 FEET square. The plane was at around 24,000 feet, well above the altitude where oxygen is required. Yes there were injuries caused by the loss of pressure, nosebleeds and popped ear drums. But most of the few serious injuries were from flying debris from the ripped off section of skin. The only death was the stewardess who was unlucky enough to be standing right where it happened. Here is a link that has some pics of the plane after it landed safely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 If an airliner can keep flying after that, a little bullet hole is kind of insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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