has Jannix Quinn stopped modding??

[LHammonds]

I finally found the post JQ was talking about. I think the main problem was this:

 

1. Jannix said the resources originally from KOTN and this mod was made to NOT require KOTN

2. This statement was made on the official forums and cannot be ignored there.

 

I do not think this was a "let's make an example out of him" scenario. I think this was more about:

 

1. Modding DLCs

2. Making release threads on the official forums

3. Not making the mod dependent upon having the DLC

 

As I've stated before, I avoid the issue completely by not modding for the DLCs but Bethesda "seems" to turn a blind eye to mods that contain the content but make an effort to "require" the DLC before it will work. But if you ask them directly, they will say not to do it (they cannot say anything else because of legalities).

 

So the only real "gray" area is the fact that meshes and textures are being created and released in mods (breaks the EULA) but Bethesda does not actively go after anyone. But they will shutdown any mod on their forums that does this AND makes it not require the DLC.

 

This is just my observation...I do not mod for DLCs and when asked, I recommend others do not either simply because I do not like the "gray" area.

 

EDIT: Forgot the "NOT" in the above sentence. hehehe.

 

LHammonds

[giskarduk]

Jannix & Nexus

 

Jannix, You know I do not mean you ill but i have been modding for a long time and I found the rules to be simple to understand once you get your head around it. Its a little like GPL content, anything made from GPL material remains under the GPL liciense. They cannot charge for it EVER no matter how many improvements somebody makes to a GPL product.

 

Same with copyrighted stuff, if you use copyrighted stuff at all, the original license applies in full to your own work on their copyrighted material. This includes the use of commands found in beth owned programming languages. EG you may write a script but you use their programming language to do it so its their property.

 

Even if you change it, providing the original models are copyrighted, your work must obey that copyright. Any edited versions of Beths work for example still belongs to BETH.

 

Modders gain special permission to edit content for a product they paid for because it promotes that product and ultimately benefits the company selling it. That license assumes your editing oblivion material for the oblivion game and not lord of the rings material for the oblivion game.

 

But the problem here is that the plugins are sold separately online and that means plugins must be treated as a separate game. Its like expansions for a game, they are considered to be a separate game even though they need the original.

 

Beth must take reasonable action to defend its rights or the law says it loses its rights. Closing threads could be considered reasonable action. As is using an installer that demands authenticiation to install a plugin.

 

So they did their part to protect their mod.

 

So the thing at fault here is the assumption that plugins are considered oblivion material for modding purposes. Most players and lore based websites already mix plugin content with oblivion content without stating the source. Check the wiki or imperial library. Ive seen vile lair lore content on the Imperial Library but its not marked as such.

 

Beth never told them not to do that, mixing the two as they have should have triggered a response but it did not happen so beths lack of action sent a message that what Jannix did is actually ok, same situation only its not a website its a mod.

 

But its not, its a separate game at the end of the day and we cannot get away from that fact, no matter how many breaches we highlight in the plugins copyright.

 

I personally favour asking Beth for some clarification on this. Since its of interest to Nexus and us modders.

 

A representative of Nexus would be an ideal choice to approach beth and ask, can we use plugin meshes, textures, sounds and lore material if the end user has to own the Oblivion game to use them, or must we make sure the end user also has to own the original plugin too.

 

Pointing out that websites do not make the distinction between plugin or oblivion content or Plugin and Morrowind Content and this situation has existed for many years now. In all cases plugins are treated as resources for the game they where made for.

 

Its only the fact people pay to download the plugins raises this issue now.

 

Giskard

[Varus Torvyn]

Jannix, bottom line is: You are not a thief.

 

Every member here that knows you and uses your mods also knows this. Your reputation is not tarnished at all, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I am one of those people who digs in and reads Mod Descriptions before I download them. Like Giskard said, it impressed me to see you helped others with their mods.

 

You have made a lot of great additions to the game, Jannix. I use your "Crystal Staff" mod, for example. To me, it's not just a simple torch mod. I personally felt it was a stroke of genius to come up with an item that is permanently lit when you go underground. You made it even more realistic by having it extinguish whenever a character goes underwater.

 

Your mods filled in a lot of gaps in Oblivion. It surely improved my game a great deal.

 

I'll certainly voice my support to you, Jannix. I think it was really great that you shared your creations with us. :thumbsup:

[giskarduk]

Jannix, bottom line is: You are not a thief.

 

I agree, this is just one of those things that randomly strikes modders from time to time when mod maker rules get twisted due to how things are released. Somebody has to fall foul of it for the rest to find out which set of rules apply.

 

Unfortunately Jannix, this time its your turn.

 

Its as simple as that really.

Those suggesting anything different...

 

A) Clearly do not know you that well.

B) Are clearly not aware of the complicated situation modders are placed in at the best of times.

 

Giskard

[Leydenne]

Hmmm... I hardly ever comment on stuff in the Nexus forums, but this was just brought to my attention about 3 minutes after I spent a little while carefully placing JQ's beautifully re-done potion bottles all over the waterfront shack. They are so pretty, unique and cool to look at when displayed.

 

I sincerely hope, with a few days perspective, that you will re-think your stance on pulling your mods. I don't think anyone with the possible exception of some trolling losers, would ever think of you as a thief. If mods here or on BGSF were concerned about official content and use and whatnot, I know they would prefer to err on the side of caution - but that in no way reflects on their view of you as a modder or your many fun and useful mods.

[LHammonds]

Has anyone thought about the FACT that when Bethesda released Oblivion, the ONLY mods they expected to see (using the construction set) were .esp plugin files. There were no tools released for unpacking their BSA files or converting DDS textures, creating NIF models or KF animations.

 

So basically, any mod that has more than just a .esp plugin is in a kind of "gray" area of sorts because we are only able to do these sorts of things because of reverse engineering.

 

Obviously, Bethesda has not "called us out" and said to stop doing that (although one would wonder why not) but instead, they are kind of proud about what the modding community has done. If you are unsure, check their BLOG site. They have interviewed tons of modders...all of which have created much more than just a .esp plugin. ;)

 

Giskard has already said it: "Somebody has to call foul of it for the rest to find out which set of rules apply"

 

I'm glad the NifTools team continued on and did what they did rather than shying away when it came to pushing the boundaries as to what is possible (and allowed)

 

LHammonds

[giskarduk]

LHammonds

 

You make a good point about Beths original intentions and the CS and ESP thing. I doubt their license actually allows reverse engineering anything because most games expressly forbid that, yet that is what many modders do to make their own mods work.

 

So we could have pushed out luck a little too far already and this may be the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Just a thought.

 

Giskard

[Nowena]

Thanks, Jannix for all the wonderful, unusual items I

now enjoy in my game. I will greatly miss the ones

that would have come in the future, not to mention

the ones I was savoring and had not yet downloaded.

 

This is just another sad void that has appeared in a

great game.

 

I hope you do well and enjoy all your new endeavors.

[billypnats]

damn it, another gr8 modder gone =(

 

I luved your mods =(

[Edocsil]

:(

 

This saddens me.. So, would it have technically been ok to release the crusader outfits if it required KOTN?