Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[MacSuibhne]

both sides were badly beaten from the war, i do not think either side had the military power to make anymore demands, the emperor had little strength and could not make any demands. That is the WGC, the result of a war that ended with little strength left to make any demands, so the AD stuck to the original.

 

All that means is that the countless lives that were lost in the war, were for nothing....the sacrifices made meaningless. The judgement of everyone associated with the Empire...from the Emperor to his advisers to his generals, to his apologists...morally bankrupt.

 

If you fight a war, and capitulate...not surrender...to the original terms, the losses and the death and destruction rest squarely with you. You can't even lay them at the feet of the enemy.

 

All of which begs the question, doesn't it? What kind of people continue to trust a government that will squander their lives, fortunes and resources so recklessly? What kind of fool does it take to continue to believe the lame excuses and rationalizations of those with comfortable lives, sinecures, and positions of power? And no real incentive to upset the apple cart?

Edited June 8, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

both sides were badly beaten from the war, i do not think either side had the military power to make anymore demands, the emperor had little strength and could not make any demands. That is the WGC, the result of a war that ended with little strength left to make any demands, so the AD stuck to the original.

 

They didn't have to make any demands, the AD were doing all the demanding. All they had to do was say NO. Thats exactly what Hammerfell did.

 

This is essentially two boxers in the ring and before the opening bell one says to the other - you will let me win. 11 rounds later with the scorecards deadlocked the other boxer throws in the towel and says "Ok, you win". Both tired, both bloodied, those original demands mean nothing unless you cave.

[imperistan]

So some people are "expendable"...like the poor sods picked up by Thalmor patrols for worshiping their gods and tortured and beheaded?

 

Not to mention the others slated for execution in the Thalmor Embassy basement for who knows what crimes...certainly the Imperial Judiciary system has no say in it.

 

grow a pair. its commendable that you place such a high vaule on everyone's life, but in practice the way the war ended was the best that could have happened given the circumstances.

 

 

I've already shown that you're wrong about the war, multiple times in fact. (First Page) The Empire could have came out of that war far better if it would just stuck with it and used its assets correctly.

 

Giving up some rights is better than forcing hundreds/thousands of civilians to give up their lives to protect those freedoms, like when the cost of the war is too high to justify the reward of keeping it.

 

Problem is, NO ONE WHO WASN'T GOING TO BE IN THE FIGHTING ANYWAY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE FIGHTING.

 

Sorry for that but I can't help but hammer this point in. You guys act like if the Empire didn't end the war then and there that the Dominion would have invaded everybody and plunged the whole continent into war, but fact of the matter is, that the Dominion didn't do this shows they never could have. If the Dominion could actually invade the rest of the Empire, why would it wait? It has no reason to accept a modest sampling when it could have the whole damn pig.

 

both sides were badly beaten from the war, i do not think either side had the military power to make anymore demands, the emperor had little strength and could not make any demands. That is the WGC, the result of a war that ended with little strength left to make any demands, so the AD stuck to the original.

 

Except the Empire had all of the strength to make demands. Compare the two forces:

 

Dominion: Three provinces. One's exhausting its troop supply (which make up almost its entire army), one is slowly killing itself while also exhausting its troop supply, and the other isn't getting involved militarily and is at best only providing supplies.

 

Lost an entire invasion army + the reinforcements they needed to push out the Legion in Cyrodiil. Also currently wasting away an entirely separate invasion army on a force that it is doomed to stalemate against.

 

 

Empire: 5 Provinces. One can't fight anymore, another is being invaded and is going to be relatively okay no matter what (even despite the ravaging). Two haven't seen the war and never will. And the other is irrelevant as it blew up a century prior.

 

Lost only half its main grouping of its army, and half of that force can still fight. Still has the forces in Hammerfel fighting (which are going to do well even without any real support from the Empire), and Skyrim and High Rock are prime to provide fresh troops and supplies to support Hammerfel and Cyrodiil. Meanwhile, the forces in Cyrodiil have no reason have no reason to go on the offensive again and what troops can still fight can simply be used in a purely defensive capacity on Cyrodiil's borders (which are mostly abandoned at this point, so even if the war reaches the border again, no civilians will be caught in the cross fire)

 

 

Long story short, the Empire had everything even despite its lossses whereas the Dominion was on its way to the grave.

Edited June 8, 2012 by imperistan

[tredmillion]

simply, are you a revolution freedom for the people kinda guy, or are you happy with an overarching ruling system?

 

i mean its certainly not that clear cut, but its a good measure :)

 

also as for the "good guys" there are none, ulfric is biggoted and an idiot and is striving for personal glory, and the empire is being oppresive, submissive (to the thalmor) and insensitive to the nordic beliefs....neither is that great, ofc if i existed and was in the elder scrolls myself i would totally co-ordinate efforts against the thalmor, but its not an easy situation, the empire is in tatters, a civilisation on its way out, is shaken from a brutal war and is on the verge of collapse as a result, and as such has little choice but to cave to thalmor demands thereby helping fuel the conflict in the north (which of course is exactly what the thalmor want) of course this entire situation simply needs some sneaky negotiation between skyrim and the empire and some underhanded tactics etc. but hey in a war where the survival of humanity is at risk anything goes right?

 

so to be perfectly honest at the end of the day, the thalmor are the bad guys in this war, the civil war in skyrim is more a civil battle.

[StormHammer81]

The Empire is strong enough to defeat anyone. Empire's lost some land, OK, big deal. With the situation - Then - we were going to loose some Provinces anyways. To be honest, the land we lost wasn't worth holding onto in the first place, lol. Really, the Empire is better off being trimmed down to what it is now as it's more manageable and stable, although still, we really need Hammerfell back. This s*** about "Oh it's a decaying and dying Empire" is not accurate. The only thing that is really wrong with the Empire is Titus Mede. He's the one calling the shots and he's the one whose making these bad decisions. The fact that the Elder Council wants TM2 Dead, this alone proves there's hope and that the Imperial leadership knows they're done wrong. But they can't just go up against the Emperor alone. And furthermore, Ulfric is capitalizing on the Empire's losses and this sad situation for his own personal gain.

 

He ratted the Empire out to the Thalmor, murdered a kid so that he could have a shot at being High King going against "The Way of the Voice" (This alone proves he's unworthy of being High King or using the Thu'um), he's considered an asset to the Thalmor, lol, he's just a pawn - Not a leader. Don't you think the Thalmor have plans for Skyrim if it secedes from the Empire? Elves are always thinking ahead.

 

Also, what happened at Helgen was mistake. Tullius gave orders to have the Stormcloak's leadership executed for their acts of terrorism against the Empire. Just like how we killed Bin Laden, no difference. When the Stormcloaks engaged in acts of Terrorism and Sedition they forfeited their rights as citizens. The Imperial Captain was told there was no one but Stormcloaks to be executed and then assumed you were a Stormcloak, trying to lie your way out of justice. The reason for torture probably has something to do with Markarth, as the Stormcloaks raped, murdered, pillaged, plundered and otherwise tore Markarth apart during the Markarth incident. They probably figure, if you guys are going to act like animals, we're going to treat you like one.

 

Personally, if Talos had a say in this, I think he would rather people revere him and his work while he was a mortal, rather than worship him. The Thalmor want the Empire of Talos gone. That is a big obstacle for them in taking Tamriel. Those clean righteous Stormcloaks are too much like the Thalmor. They're both like two sides to the same coin really.

 

So given what Ulfric did at Markarth, you know... you keep talking about how Baaad the Empire is... then when Ulfric starts executing and exiling and murdering non-Nords or people who didn't support his uprising in the Civil War (like he did before), that's ok. Because that's what you're going to get. Except this time it'll be an entire country. I said this once and I'll say it again, Ulfric is Not High King material.

 

Like Legate Rikke basically said, if Ulfric gets his way it'll just be more Civil War and more violence because people in Skyrim are Not going to want to leave their homes, their businesses, their children or abandon their very lives just because Ulfric has Racial / Personal issues.

 

Lastly, this situation is not as cut and dry as it may seem like. The Empire didn't want the WGC, Titus Mede II did. It's so typical of the Religious crowd to go on a Witch-hunt or one of their self-righteous tantrums spreading blame and damnation instead of really thinking about the situation and what really is happening. Yes, there were some wrongs committed by Titus Mede II. But, at least he made his decision to try and protect lives and restore order. Ulfric on the other hand, is going to War for his agenda and to feed his personal hate for the Empire. Granted I am a Christian myself, however if this was the US and we had some over-zealous Governor start invading his peaceful, innocent neighbors and murdering them in the name of his Religion, just to prove a point, I would Not follow him even then. Because spreading more division and chaos isn't the answer. We need accountability and leadership, not uhhh going door to door dragging people off in the middle of the night because they belong to the wrong Religion, taking hostages AND we also don't need these other guys going door to door murdering, and kicking people out of the country, confiscating their property because they didn't support your political faction in the last Civil War or you just so happen to be at the wrong end of the gene pool MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

 

Just listen to what a brat Ulfric is during the negotiations on High Hrothgar. "Tullius is like, let's stop this insanity and maybe we can..." Ulfric - "No, noooo, I want to have everything my waaay waaa, I should never have come here, waaaaa..."

 

Another thing too, people talk about how bad Tullius is and all this stuff, the Truth is Tullius acts rough on the outside and has a big heart on the inside. He just doesn't show it. Notice the skull on the table in his room, it means he is one of those people who contemplates Death! Some of you know what I mean. Tullius comes off tough but he's really quite thoughtful and cares for everyone. However, he also happens to be the head of the Legion and probably one of the last major Imperial Army Leaders with any real respect, so he can't back down and can't make any mistakes. But it's Ulfric who is putting the Legion in the place of the Bad-guy here. I'm starting to wonder if the Empire's plan for dealing with the Thalmor included getting rid of TM2. Perhaps that's why it took 30yrs, they had to wait for the right time to spring a coup. Which does make sense, if they just killed TM2 that would lead almost directly to Civil War. But if some third party executes him, that leaves the Elder Council and Legion blameless and still able to govern. Which could also be what ahh Armand? meant when he said it took years of planning and patience to make the assassination of TM2 even remotely possible.

 

I follow no man, especially an arrogant, childish, selfish, blood-thirsty, Thalmor asset-sycophant like Ulfric. What happened back then is done and over, much like Titus Mede II's rule. What matters is what the Empire does now and I seriously don't think Talos would trade his Empire for a madman-puppet being used by the Thalmor.

 

It's easy to view the Stormcloaks as the Good guys, because even I was once one of them, however, sometimes the Greater Good is not always easy to see or easy to follow. Especially once I met the Empire and had a better understanding of what is really going on here. Narrow is the gate which leads to life, few go therein. Broad is the way to destruction and there be many who go in.

 

 

"...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" - Thalmor Dossier

Edited June 17, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[vinh834]

Doesn't one of the books in-game say that even though the Empire routed the elven forces from the imperial city, the Empire would eventually lose if the war was to go on? So that invalidates the reason why the empire could have won.

[Heartcloud]

This is one of the things Bethesda really did right, completely balance both sides of the war so there's no "negative" in choosing either side. This equals at least 2 playthroughs.

 

Tullius:

- Prideful, sometimes disrespectful to Elisif

- The "winning is everything" type of guy, pretty simple-minded compared to Legate Rikke

- Besides that didn't find any faults with him, he's just an average character with no extreme traits

 

Ulfric:

- Charismatic and strong

- Very biased and has extreme viewpoint (hatred of dunmer, imperials, thalmor, etc)

- Sometimes very rude and unfair (Season Unending quest, why does he consider it "fair" that the stormcloaks get 2 cities while the imperials only get 1?)

- Selfish power usurper who uses force instead of policies to control jarls

[MacSuibhne]

This is one of the things Bethesda really did right, completely balance both sides of the war so there's no "negative" in choosing either side. This equals at least 2 playthroughs.

 

Ulfric:

 

- Very biased and has extreme viewpoint (hatred of dunmer, imperials, thalmor, etc)

 

Bethesda must not have done that great of job because I don't detect all that much balance in your analysis--it seems obviously biased against Ulfric...

 

Cite one law, one decree, one writ, one statute, one openly expressed opinion...that Ulfric or the Stormcloaks express or directly support...that persecutes or harasses the Dunmer or the Argonians.

 

The most xenophobic and racist faction in Skyrim is the Thalmor. The Empire actively "cooperates" with the Thalmor; it aids and abets Thalmor activities against Skyrim citizens. Or looks the other way...which functionally is the same thing.

 

The Khajits are not allowed in any city in Skyrim, Imperial or otherwise.

 

The grey quarter in Windhelm is 150 years old. It is not Ulfric's doing. He "inherited the economy".

 

The Lore says the Dunmer are "clannish" and "distrustful" of others.

 

Are there racist in Skyrim? Yes, there are. Not all of them are Stormcloaks.

 

Are there racists in the Stormcloaks? Yes, there are. But Ulfric is not among them.

 

To try to make that point without any evidence is guilt by association.

 

Whichever side you choose, you will be among racists and esp. as an Imperial, cooperating with Skyrim's most racist people....implicitly furthering their racist agenda.

 

So...if it's guilt by association, no matter which side the Dragonborn chooses it's racist. He/she is making a racist choice.

Edited June 17, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

- Very biased and has extreme viewpoint (hatred of dunmer, imperials, thalmor, etc)

 

I'm gonna have to agree with Mac on this one. Ulfric has no love for the Dunmer, but I wouldn't call his attitude towards them extreme. Extreme would be forcing them to work in grueling labor camps until they meet an untimely demise.

[StormHammer81]

Yeah... The Imperials are not racist at all. Please don't include the Imperials with the Stormcloaks on the racism part, racism is a Thalmor and Stormcloak (Ulfric) attribute. The Empire may be a lot of things but it's not racist. The Empire is no more cooperating with the Thalmor than the Thalmor are cooperating with them. Both of them are using the WGC to say one thing and pursue their own agenda and Ulfric is also using it to further his. There is no soft, cushy, warm alliance between the Empire of Talos and Aldmeri Dominion, it's all on paper only. Especially once Titus Mede II leaves office. Things between them are going to deteriorate real fast, because the WGS is TM2's treaty, but it's Talos' Empire! Both of them are caught up in a whirl-wind waiting to see how things turn out in the Civil War. Like someone said, the Dominion has been weakened so... that's why they needed a point man, like Ulfric. One way or another he is serving their interests and I'm glad I fought for the Empire. Another interesting thing, when you clear out the Thalmor at NorthWatch Keep, the guards are like, "Hahaha the Thalmor have been knocked down a peg..." Edited June 18, 2012 by bigmagy1981