Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[breakwind]

And the chests of gold? Dammit...this isn't about the gold

[StormHammer81]

@Mac

 

Well, the Empire is Not really corrupt. That's just it. Everyone wants to think of the Empire as evil and corrupt when it's TITUS MEDE II who is got some problems. That's why I'm sooo glad he resigns, then we're left with an Empire that can start a new, possibly even with the Dragonborn as it's leader. Torygg is not working with the Thalmor. That's guilt by association. Legate Rikke is not friends with the Thalmor. Virtually no Imperial I know other than TM2 is with the Thalmor. The Empire doesn't even enforce the Ban on Talos, they just looked the other way. It was Ulfric who brought the Thalmor to Skyrim and it was Ulfric who got everyone in trouble trying to promote self. With the big "dueler" running home like a little biotch afterwards, leaving a good man to die in his place. Pure coward. You want to answer to a coward, be my guest.

 

Titus Mede II is leading everyone down a dark road. This is all his doing and if one man can screw everything up, then another can fix everything, ie The Dragonborn.

 

That's not the point-- aside from the court in Solitude you couldn't find a more biased, more blatantly one-side point of view. They both have a vested interest in making Torygg look innocent and Ulfric look like murderer...desipte the fact that Torygg's court wizard Sybyll Stendar (?) says quite clearly that Ulfric had a legal right to challenge Torygg.. Meantime, the Thalmor, as is their racial penchant, are manipulating everyone.

 

Every indication that Torygg admired Ulfric or that he was ready to grow a pair and stand up to the Thalmor, comes from Torygg's court.

 

It's not in their interest to be objective.

 

Really?!? You're serious :D Oh let me see, uhhh How About Ulfric's Point of View? Ulfric is Very Biased and Very much One-Sided. It's maybe not your point, sure, but it is a valid point. Elisif is not working with the Thalmor lol Neither was Torygg. They were just trying to preserve the Empire. And actually, Ulfric himself verifies most of what they said. It's just you and my opinion of murder. That's it.

 

There is NO EVIDENCE to support that Torygg was cooperating with the Thalmor on anything. None. Another thing, this Dossier does hold water. Because it does say that contact was re-established with Ulfric after the Great War and he was particularly useful during the Markarth incident. So, at least for a time there Ulfric was collaborating with the Thalmor. He turned uncooperative AFTER The Markarth Incident which opened the door for the Thalmor to have a presence in Skyrim.

 

The Thalmor *Broke* Ulfric's mind. They know how to get to him, the Thalmor lied to him and planted the seed for Ulfric to help them destroy the Empire.

 

Additionally, it was Not Torygg but Jarl Igman son's who made the deal with Ulfric at Markarth and then later, Jarl Ingman backed down from the Thalmor. The whole thing was a Grande setup to get the Thalmor into Skyrim but the Thalmor betrayed Ulfric. It also says that, "...Ulfric's death and an Imperial Victory would have greatly harmed our efforts in Skyrim." - Thalmor So you're saying an Open-minded person should just... look past that part of the Dossier? The fact that communication was reestablished and that Ulfric's death would set things straight, nah that's not important. We have to focus on the objective, get rid of the Empire yeah! What about the Thalmor? Nah man... it's kk. The Empire is the bad guy because Ulfric screwed everything up yeah!!! How many missions does Ulfric give you to fight the Thlamor? How many? ZERO. NONE.

 

Because up to then, the Emperor could tell the Thalmor whatever in the hell he wanted and the Thalmor were *forced* to take his word for it. Ulfric's little invasion at Markarth changed all that. Before then, there was NO Thalmor presence in Skyrim and the Empire had the ball. Afterwards, the Thalmor stole influence through Ulfric. Empire does care about it's citizens, they weren't enforcing the ban on Talos until Ulfric started whining about it.

 

WGC said nothing about patrols or taking over the Empire. The patrols and the current situation in Skyrim are solely because of Ulfric's meddling. That's why once he's dead and gone, there is no more reason for the Thalmor to stay in Skyrim or at least in their current setup because the opposition to the treaty is gone. And as far as Gold is concerned, it's my understanding the Empire is in somewhat of a financial crises itself, as seen by the East Empire company and those high taxes Ulfric is talking about. Which I'm sure, there was a lot of damage done.

Edited June 20, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[BrettM]

You can ask Elisif if she worships Talos at the time she gives you Torygg's horn. She says that she does not, but wishes to follow Nord tradition in leaving an offering for Talos because Torygg was a traditionalist. It is, of course, possible that Elisif is lying about her Talos worship.

 

Every indication that Ulfric is a good guy with good motives comes from Ulfric or his supporters.

 

It's not in their interest to be objective.

I quite agree that Ulfric and his court may be just as self-serving as Elisif and her court. But that isn't necessarily a reflection on the worthiness of his cause. If you prove that someone is a hypocrite, all you've proven is that they don't believe what they say. You have not proven that what they say is wrong. Similarly, if you prove that someone has a hidden agenda, you have not proven that their overt agenda has no merit, only that they're using it as a cover.

 

Ulfric has not yet been proven to be a hypocrite or to have a hidden agenda, but either or both is possible. It is also possible that his lust for power has become or is becoming stronger than his desire to free his people. I support the cause, but keep a wary eye on Ulfric. He seems to have a growing talent for rhetoric and political image building, which is one reason why I never agree to let him include me in his final speech. The dovahkiin should not be made a tool to enhance Ulfric's image.

[sukeban]

@bigmagy -- Hell again, old friend :-)

 

@thread -- We probs don't need to rehash all those long-dead threads about Empire vs. Stormcloak. By now, people tend to see it one way or the other and that's just kinda the way things are. Not really much mind-changing to be had about the subject.

 

That said, we should probably all agree that those inhabiting the courts of Windhelm and Solitude definitely are not unbiased sources of information. I would trust Elisif to be unbiased in her statements about as much as I would trust Galmar. To a lesser extent, this applies to most NPCs in Skyrim or at least any of the Jarls and/or prominent families concerned with political affairs. It's just the nature of historiography, evaluate (and be skeptical of) your sources. Most everybody is biased in some way or another, especially about polarizing issues such as the Civil War.

 

We do know that Torygg and Elisif continued to worship Talos in secret, sharing the practice of many Nords in Skyrim. Sybille (probably the least biased source in the Blue Palace) tells us that Torygg respected Ulfric and might have tossed in his lot with him in declaring Skyrim's independence. Obviously, Torygg's hypothetical answer is completely unknowable to us, which is the main problem here, IMO. It is my personal critique with Ulfric that he challenged Torygg without bothering to here his answer, making me believe that Ulfric probably didn't care what it was, that he was there to kill him anyway. (Indeed, had Torygg assented to independence, that might have been highly problematic for Ulfric if gaining the title of High King was his overriding goal; much easier to just kill him and assume that he wouldn't have.)

 

The duel was, IMO, totally legit and legal. Bigmagy, just because something is law doesn't mean that it is right or just. Being law =/= morally correct. Sometimes this is good (not forcing everyone to obey one, potentially narrow, understanding of morality) and sometimes this is bad (when Justice writ large is thwarted by a corrupt, ignorant or self-serving law). But something being Law definitely does not make it inherently right nor make people morally obligated to obey it (American Civil Rights movement). Tyrants and dictators make all sorts of pretty laws, but that does not make any of them morally correct. Laws only mean something if a) they adhere to a common morality that people will not willingly violate and/or b) there is the proper force of arms arrayed to enforce it. In many/most cases, this takes the form of the police force/judiciary and military.

 

The there's the bit about Imperialism. Reasonable people can differ on when native practices range from "okay, but different" (from the perspective of the potential Imperialist) to "savage." Perhaps if ancient Skyrim custom espoused cannibalism or slavery we might be able to argue that the Imperial Legion was saving Skyrim from its own savage, backward ways (Morrowind *cough cough), but resolving leadership disputes through an honorable duel, IMO, definitely does not meet the criteria for being "savage." Furthermore, using the Thu'um, IMO, doesn't constitute a breach of duel etiquette. Torygg accepted the duel knowing full well that Ulfric had knowledge of The Voice. That he would use it seems to me to be a logical extension of his training as a warrior. The Voice is just another weapon at the disposal of a Nord. The High Kings of Skyrim would have done well to learn it for themselves to defend against just such a situation. Ulfric was the superior warrior, with superior training and ability, and he won the duel.

 

The only way that one could understand Torygg's death to be immoral (i.e. murder) would be if they recognized the moral legitimacy of Imperial Law to trump Nordic custom, an understanding that I do not share. Dueling is not barbaric and was not being superseded by more morally correct set of laws. Imperial Law only forbade dueling because it posed a threat to their power ruling Skyrim. They sought to make their High Kings unassailable, by buying off the Jarls voting in the Moot and by outlawing the only other option left to those seeking to challenge the High King -- the duel. That they succeeded in trumping local custom testifies not to their superior moral or legal code but instead to their at-one-time superior force of arms (though perhaps, if you squinted, you could kind of see this as sort of a duel in and of itself baha).

 

MacSuibhne -- I'm not actually sure when the Thalmor appeared as they are presented in-game. I always had the feeling that they were there only in the post-Torygg Skyrim, that they were sent there to ensure compliance with anti-Talos policies in Imperial lands in the aftermath of Torygg's slaying. I don't believe that they were there before the duel (which is why people generally say that in the pre-duel era worshiping Talos on the downlow really wasn't that big of a deal). Presumably, worshiping Talos is much more difficult now (in Imperial lands), since the Thalmor are freaking everywhere. This isn't 100% fact or anything, just the inkling that I get from NPCs. If this were the case though, Torygg wouldn't have been in league with the Jusiciars, as the Justiciars weren't there until after he was dead. Elisif and Tullius (especially Tullius), on the other hand....

[StormHammer81]

@sukeban

 

Sup bro-ham. Just like old times :D Agreed. Oh and I almost forgot this:

 

Kool. So you and I are going to duel right now. You go get a sword, your bare hands and use your honor as a Shield. I'll be bringing my RPG with a trunk load of ammo, my personal hatred for well, everyone else and my swinging-cod. When I win, it will be fair and legal. I'll also be taking your kingdom and that fine-a$$ wife of yours too!!! :dance:

 

@MAC

 

You and I can duel afterwards, same MO.

 

Everyone please have everything ready for me before my *caugh* hard fought Victory cause afterwards I'll be in a big a$$ hurry. I'll also require *someone* to hold the gate open for me afterwards, so I can escape, you however must stay behind and be beheaded so I can run back to my throne in the middle of Siberia and tell everyone what a bad-a$$ I am (From Mr 305 to Mr Worldwide). Please don't forget to pay the taxi man in advance. I would but I'm too cheap. :wallbash: Freedum or Sovngarde... or something... whatever.

 

OK THX BYYYEEE!!!

Edited June 20, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[MacSuibhne]

 

There is NO EVIDENCE to support that Torygg was cooperating with the Thalmor on anything. None. Another thing, this Dossier does hold water. Because it does say that contact was re-established with Ulfric after the Great War and he was particularly useful during the Markarth incident. So, at least for a time there Ulfric was collaborating with the Thalmor. He turned uncooperative AFTER The Markarth Incident which opened the door for the Thalmor to have a presence in Skyrim.

 

 

 

From the Lore...nothing I've seen contradicts this source..

"However, Jarl Igmund admitted that the Empire sent out pleas to the Nords for aid in reclaiming the hold from the native Reachmen, in exchange for permitting the free worship of Talos in Markarth. Igmund admitted that they offered religious freedom under the hope that the Thalmor wouldn't find out about the arrangement. It was then that Ulfric began making history.

 

The Markarth Incident

 

Ulfric led a militia to recapture the hold in what would become known as the Markarth Incident: after successfully laying siege to the capital Markarth. It was said that Ulfric used the th'um to achieve victory against the native inhabitants of the Reach, and ultimately overthrow Madanach. As promised, when Markarth was returned to Imperial control, the worship of Talos was permitted.

The Death of Torygg

 

The Thalmor discovered...this and...(sic) would not allow the Empire to keep this pledge, and eventually, the young High King of Skyrim, Torygg, acquiesced to the Imperial demand to eliminate Talos worship. Jarl Igmund stressed that the peace with the Thalmor was more important than the arrangement with Ulfric and the Nord militia. Ulfric was arrested. Ulfric was incensed, and eventually confronted the High King in Solitude."

 

 

The interesting thing about this is that up until the Markarth betrayal, Ulfric was...like so many Imperial supporters/apologists...ready to defend the empire, the High King of Skyrim and the WGC. And implicit in that is a grudging support for the Thalmor insofar as Empire and Thalmor objectives seemed to coincide (or at least a willingness to look away no matter how shameful that might seem to those of us viewing it from a more privileged perspective).

 

Ulfric was held by the Thalmor during the Great War. It was then that he was interrogated and "assigned" to Elenwen as an agent. I am not aware of any evidence indicating what exactly "cooperating" with the Thalmor consisted of. But everyone breaks under torture, whether they give up anything significant is a matter of debate, isn't it?.

 

After the Empire...in the persons of Torygg and Igmund...reneged on their promise and betrayed Ulfric, Ulfric realized that...like so many Imperial supporter/apologists...he had been manipulated--that he had bought into the Big Lie.

 

After the Markarth incident, Ulfric realized that he could no longer support a complicit and treacherous Empire and "it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." (from the Thalmor Dossier...emphasis mine).

 

Ulfric came to his senses...a sure sign that a man can learn, can grow, and that wisdom will find fertile soil.

 

Too few others share the same ability to objectively appraise their own decisions and preconceptions.

[MacSuibhne]

 

@MAC

 

You and I can duel afterwards, same MO.

 

 

 

When you lose, you can blame it on my superior musculature, my training as airborne infantry, my combat experience (small as that is), or my years of experience in real life...something...anything...to make it seem like an unfair duel (as all duels are).

 

The Lore states that Nords have the ability to shout as a part of their racial make-up. Same as Bretons can resist magic, etc..

 

"The Nords have long practiced a spiritual form of magic known as "The Way of the Voice", based largely on their veneration of the Wind as the personification of Kynareth. Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky, and the breath and the voice of a Nord is his vital essence. Through the use of the Voice, the vital power of a Nord can be articulated into a thu'um, or shout."

 

 

Maybe Ulfric should have fasted for ten days, tied one hand behind his back, stuffed a gag in his mouth, and stripped naked before challenging Torygg. The outcome...including the charges of murder and unfairness...would have been the same--if only because Torygg had such small cojones.

Edited June 20, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[StormHammer81]

Right well Ulfric hasn't changed, he's always hated the Empire every since he was captured. The entire Markarth Incident was illegal in every respect and transformed Ulfric into a Master Butcher. The then "Reachmen" reclaimed their land (the 10 kingdoms) and for 2 years had a peaceful, strong kingdom in the Reach. The Empire was working with them to establish a treaty when the Jarl Ingman's sons made a deal with the Devil. Neither the Jarl or Torygg had any knowledge of what was really going on until after the attack on Markarth had already started.

 

Read the Bear of Markarth (If you haven't already) it and other sources talk about how Ulfric murdered, raped and pillaged his way through that Kingdom. He put Men, women, children of all ages to the sword for not coming to his aid when the city finally fell. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks killed so many innocent people it was like the Rawandan genocide and it's because of this the Reachmen went crazy over it and became the Forsworn we all know and love today. The Empire actually did give in to Ulfric's demands and for a time allowed Talos worship. Then, not too long thereafter, the Thalmor found out about his (like they didn't already know) and used this fcked up situation to gain a foothold in Skyrim.

 

According to the Dossier, Ulfric was in contact with the Thalmor during this time and after like you said, he got screwed, then he became uncooperative. Ulfric hasn't gone threw any sort of enlightenment at all here. He's out for VENGEANCE. Especially against the Empire. Neither Torygg or Skyrim or the Empire were prepared to go to war with the Thalmor at this time. And how could they, now that the Stormcloaks have started their rebellion. As this incident was the final straw that's divided Skyrim today.

 

Torygg actually was more of a man that Ulfric. He wasn't trained in the voice, ok. Nonetheless he had the courage to face Ulfric on his Ulfric's terms. That's not a coward. It's called a setup. You were in the military, I was in the military, so we both know what a setup is all about. Ulfric apparently had the balls to stand up to a young man but not enough to face the Empire, as he got his a$$ out of there and left a good man to die. Running away after something like that is the cowards way out.

 

Furthermore, the Stormcloak cities are garbage (except for Riften). The people are rude, infrastructure sucks, economy sucks, racist. Windhelm is a piece of feces. Ulfric freely allows the non-Nords to be thrown to the bandits, doesn't care. It's not enough to judge a King by his method of War, you also have to look at how he lives and governs in general. Making Ulfric a big failure at all of it. The Imperial cities are totally different, kind of a business atmosphere but that's good! Jarl B even allows Talos worship and freedom of speech in Whiterun. No true reformist or enlightened individual would go attack a place like Whiterun unless they're out for power.

 

In fact, I was a Stormcloak myself until I heard the two of them talking about torching Whiterun and running a sword thru Jarl B's gullet. For me, that was it. We're here for freedom and all that cushy stuff and now we're going to go attack a city... that is free... and yet, is Imperial... just because the Jarl and people there don't agree with you? Am I doing this so Ulfric can be High King or? Oh no, in fact hell no. Ulfric's ethics seem somewhat selective. Jarl B is however, a good, generous and enlightened man and Empire or otherwise, I will follow where he leads.

Edited June 20, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[tetradite]

In a duel (in any sense I've known it in the real world) it is customary for both participants to have the same weapons. They may have different strength, eyesight etc but the weapons are generally equalised.

 

Much as the thu'um is an "ability" I think for these purposes it is most fairly considered an actual weapon. So no, Ulfric shouldn't have fasted, tied one hand behind his back or anything like that, but he should have obeyed the basic principle of duelling that both participants have the same armaments.

 

Just sayin.

 

As someone who already despises both sides in the war, I must say I find the arguments of the Empire supports in this thread infinitely more compelling than the Stormcloak supporters.

 

Both sides are still fundamentally unsupportable to me though.

[sukeban]

@bigmagy

 

Bwaha. I actually loll'd pretty hard at that :-) Good old magz coming with that levity. I'm down with it.

 

I'd just say that I probably wouldn't accept your challenge if I knew you were packing an RPG and all I had was a stick. I'd probably just say "Damn, I wish I'd planned for this in advance" and start packing up my things (AND! my fine wife). I'm not fool, yo. Death before dishonor... yadda yadda no thanks... where's the door? When you meet up with Torygg in Sovngarde he straight up tells you essentially, "Yeah, I knew I was going to die, but eyy" so he knew what he was getting himself into.

 

I'd also say, on a more serious note, that just like how something being a Law doesn't inherently make it morally correct, neither does a head of state lay any sort of claim to moral authority or legitimacy simply because he is the head of state. I forget which one, but that is definitely a logical fallacy of the highest order. A tautology at the very least.

 

Nowadays, heads of state are supposed to derive their legitimacy from the fact that they were elected by the people, but in Skyrim they are supposed to gain their legitimacy from either a) their military prowess or b) their election by an independent (meaning in Skyrim's best interests and no one else's) Moot. Rulers may then maintain this legitimacy if they do not act against the interests of Skyrim's citizens or grossly violate established customs and traditions. Reasonable men and women may differ as to where Torygg rated on this, but it is my belief that Torygg (and his father before him) was indeed placing the interests of a foreign power over the interests of Skyrim's citizens, i.e. continuing to tow the line regarding the ban on Talos worship.

 

I also believe that every man should have a chance to change his mind, however, which is why I think that it so shady that Ulfric did not even bother to ask Torygg for his support. Had Ulfric asked him to secede and he had refused, then... I think that he would have been fair game for overthrow. Certainly I think that weak-sauce Elisif is fair game for being deposed.

 

Really, what I would have liked to see would have been this: a) Ulfric askes Torygg to secede, b) Torygg accepts Ulfric's offer and notifies the Empire of Skyrim's wish to become indepdent, c) rather than sending in the Legion, Titus Mede II just says "whatevs" and lets Skyrim go its own way, wishing to not waste troops trying to reconquer it and desiring good relations with the newly independent state, and d) all sides (Hammerfell, Skyrim, Empire) agree to synchronize their efforts in planning for the final war with the Thalmor.

 

In truth, all sides share blame in the Civil War. IMO, the Empire should have just washed its hands of Skyrim after Torygg, letting it go the way of Hammerfell. If they did this, there would be no reason to think that an independent Skyrim would be hostile to the Empire (no war, remember). Quite the opposite, in fact, as I would imagine that an independent Skyrim would have been only too happy to lend its support to any and all efforts intended to weaken the Thalmor and prepare for the war. In this way, both sides could have got what they wanted, with Skyrim able to freely worship Talos again and beginning to arm for war and with the Empire not wasting troops in Skyrim and instead plotting along with its ally (Skyrim) about the final downfall of the Thalmor. In would have been win-win, but alas... Bethesda had other ideas keke.

 

EDIT:

 

You can't really use the cities as that compelling of an example of Imperial vs. Stormcloak rule. Soltidue may be nice but remember... it's also been the seat of government for how many hundreds of years? Just look at the nice infrastructure of Washington DC vs. Compton; he who has the most political sway gets the most resources to make their city awesome. By selling out to the Empire for hundreds of years, Solitude has reaped much in the way of Imperial largesse.

 

Windhelm is a dump for sure. Bigmagy, you and I went back and forth over this one forever, so I don't want to revisit it again. Ulfric could improve his governning ability quite a bit, no questions about it.

 

Winterhold... you can't really hold that against Ulfric. That is like some seriously wrath of god type shizz. Riften is a bad city mostly due to the Thieves Guild and Maven Black-Briar who is... a great friend of the Imperials! How about that? I'm sure that Rfiten will get a whole lot less crime-ridden after she becomes Jarl *rolls eyes* Finally, Dawnstar is actually a pretty okay town, my favorite (with mods) actually. It's sleepy, but so is Morthal and Falkreath.

 

Markarth is NOT an example of good Imperial governance, but again, we've been there before, you and I. Really, the Empire has Whiterun (Jarl B is indeed a good man, even though he is bribed by the Imperials with chests of gold) as the "feather in its cap." But Whiterun also doesn't allow Thalmor agents inside its walls (Heimskr is still alive) nor does it allow in Legion troops. So it is only *sort of* an Imperial city. When you ask Gerdur or Advar about it, they say that "he hasn't chosen one side or the other." So that is really only a partial victory for the trope of "superior Imperial governance."

Edited June 20, 2012 by sukeban