imperistan Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I've already read some of those posts. In fact you quoted one of them to me before, if you've forgotten. It seems you've also forgotten that your post was entirely speculation. To know for a certainty how Tamriel would have fared if the WGC hadn't been signed we would need a fair amount of additional knowledge. You know, there's a point when speculation is just baseless theory, and there's another point on the other side of the scale where speculation becomes a fairly accurate projection of events. Can you honestly dispute anything I've said? Can you prove that there is more than a 49% chance that what I speculated would not have been the the actual course of events presuming the Empire didn't cave? You can get hung up on whatever what-if's you can come up with, but fact of that matter is that there is only one what-if thats going to have a basis in fact, and thats what I presented. Sure if we were able to play it out and see what happens, would it happen 100% exactly like that? Probably not, but random occurrences aren't the point of this topic nor this wider debate. The point revolves entirely around the Emperor's choices that he had when he stood triumphant over the Dominion in Cyrodiil, and what could have come to pass if he had chosen differently. And we can say what could have come to pass because we already know one version of the past 30 years, so all we need to do is substitute the Emperor's other choice and we come to see what could have happened differently given the new starting point. Its a point in history that had very clear and direct effects on much of the past 30 years, so substitute for another action that would have had the same impact and you can reasonably and accurately say what could have happened. And besides all that, there is substantial fact that supports that the Emperor had the capability, the resources and even the tactical smarts to keep the war going without damning Tamriel any more than it would have. And while you can argue that may be the Emperor couldn't have seen that Tamriel wouldn't have been much worse off either way, there's still the fact that he was in a position to make demands of his enemy, not cave into the enemies demands. Mede could have easily demanded that the Dominion surrender or at the very least call off the war and withdraw. He just defeated a vast portion of their entire army in its entirety, and for all the Dominion would have known at the time, he still had the vast majority of the forces he used. And they most certainly knew that the Empire had two provinces in reserve (who haven't really been tapped for the all of the wartime support they could give mind you), so even if the Dominion knew the Legions in Cyrodiil were exhausted, they would have known that Mede could make another army if he had to. Oh, and criticizing for speculation is rather funny, seeing as the Imperial argument also hinges on just as much speculation as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robanybody2000 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war." This is from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era So you just assumed "he still had the vast majority of the forces he used" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 You didn't even read my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 The Empire desperately needs a purge in the leadership department if they want to survive as anything more than a Thalmor puppet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robanybody2000 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "Mede could have easily demanded that the Dominion surrender or at the very least call off the war and withdraw. He just defeated a vast portion of their entire army in its entirety, and for all the Dominion would have known at the time, he still had the vast majority of the forces he used. And they most certainly knew that the Empire had two provinces in reserve (who haven't really been tapped for the all of the wartime support they could give mind you), so even if the Dominion knew the Legions in Cyrodiil were exhausted, they would have known that Mede could make another army if he had to." Do i realy need to quote all your post? And by "the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war" I understand that Mede couldn't make another army, and i don't thik the AD wouldn't know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 "The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war." This is from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era So you just assumed "he still had the vast majority of the forces he used" Unable and unwilling are two totally different words. They chose the wrong one for that statement. They still had Hammerfell willing to continue to fight until they threw them under the bus. They still had/have Skyrim until they were willing to throw them under the bus. Unable? Wrong word there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 And yet every other source besides yours (which, btw, is far from being comprehensive, only being a list of events) points towards the Empire having more than enough to rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robanybody2000 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 The UESPWiki is considered by almost all of TES players the best source of lore besides the games themselves. Please post some links to your other sources that are more reliable than the UESP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 :wallbash: Wasn't talking about the UESP. And besides that, the Imperial Libary is the best place for lore, even though its still in the process of taking in everything from Skyrim. UESP is better for information on the game part of the games. Stats, codes, walkthroughs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Can you prove that there is more than a 49% chance that what I speculated would not have been the the actual course of events presuming the Empire didn't cave? No I cannot, because the game provides precious little information about the Great War. there's still the fact that he was in a position to make demands of his enemy, not cave into the enemies demands. True, and we'll likely never know much more than that. Oh, and criticizing for speculation is rather funny, seeing as the Imperial argument also hinges on just as much speculation as well. When have I ever argued otherwise? :happy: Edited June 23, 2012 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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