Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[Ahtilah]

EDIT: Mix up on my part. Edited June 28, 2012 by Ahtilah

[MacSuibhne]

Two quick observations...according to the Lore, High Elves specialize in stealth and Machiavellian machinations. So the chances are high that stealth would be their preferred MO whether they had the resources or not.

 

Also, if Skyrim were independent it would represent a challenge and, more importantly, a second front in a way that it does not now...simply because the Empire is aiding/supporting the Thalmor in Skyrim. There is a, at least even, chance that the Thalmor would simply pull back in order to concentrate on Cyrodiil.

[Ahtilah]

Two quick observations...according to the Lore, High Elves specialize in stealth and Machiavellian machinations. So the chances are high that stealth would be their preferred MO whether they had the resources or not.

 

Also, if Skyrim were independent it would represent a challenge and, more importantly, a second front in a way that it does not now...simply because the Empire is aiding/supporting the Thalmor in Skyrim. There is a, at least even, chance that the Thalmor would simply pull back in order to concentrate on Cyrodiil.

 

It still is doubtful they have the resources, but that is me making an assumption. They did fight the war on many fronts, and if Skyrim splits from the Empire then that is more fronts to face off. As you have stated. But second front? If Cyrodiil stays out, sure. But Hammerfell is not gone 'yet'. So it would be more then two fronts.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Ahtilah

[MacSuibhne]

 

It still is doubtful they have the resources, but that is me making an assumption. They did fight the war on many fronts, and if Skyrim splits from the Empire then that is more fronts to face off. As you have stated. But second front? If Cyrodiil stays out, sure. But Hammerfell is not gone 'yet'.

 

The point I was making is that they currently have to concentrate the greater proportion of their forces to Cyrodiil...they can only allocate so many men (and logistics) to Skyrim and then only if the Empire is helping and supporting them.

 

So if the Empire were to just let Skyrim go, the Thalmor would have to devote more troops to Skyrim or get out of Skyrim.

 

In the first instance it's a win for Cyrodill. In the second, it's a win for Skyrim.

 

And overall it's a win for both the Empire and Skyrim because the Civil War doesn't have to be fought.

 

Which in turn leaves both the Empire and Skyrim stronger and more capable of confronting the Dominion as allies...willing allies...perhaps with the reluctant but "for-the-sake-of-our-friends-in-Skyrim" assistance of Hammerfell.

 

By the end of the game, of course, such options are moot but it reveals a tragic lack of imagination, as well as a complete absence of long-term strategic thinking, on the part of the Empire.

Edited June 28, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[StormHammer81]

@MAC

 

Uh-huh well, everyone seems to think that an Independent Skyrim is going to be Neutral and this ahh "Utopia" of Civil Order. Rather, an Independent Skyrim starts out as a Neutral concept for Ulfric and then later on, we're talking about "Grand Purpose". So, no I don't think Skyrim under Ulfric is going to stay Neutral at all, certainly not for long. More than likely, Ulfric is going to go after the Empire or Hammefell. Remember, there still is "Bad Blood" between Skyrim and Hammerfell over history and territory. I think I'll take the liberty of being the first person in history on here to suggest that Ulfric would go after Hammerfell in the name of Skyrim. Or the Empire. So far he has actually done less than nothing about the Thalmor. Ulfric is not thinking of survival or standing together, he's pretending the Thalmor don't exist and that's how he running things. Like Skyrim has the luxury to meddle in intrigue and fight over pride. Pride is what got us the WGC. He's kind of Childish when you think about it...

 

Furthermore, say what you will about Cyrodil but there is no way you can see this CW as a win-win for Cyrodil. Not possible. Not when Cyrodil is crippled and in really TERRIBLE shape. In the end, Cyrodil would truly be FORCED to sign another treaty with the Thalmor, this time against Skyrim for reals. If you think Cyrodil is in good shape OR will benefit from losing Skyrim then... whew-hoo!!!

 

Furthermore, you clearly lack a complete understanding of where the Empire's strategic planning is coming from, which from what I'm seeing TM2 is not a part of it :) Very inventive. I would not describe General Tullius and Legate Rikke as having a lack of imagination. Certainly, for Councilmen Armand to plan the Grand resignation of TM2 ILLUSTRATES that he has a veeerrryyy good imagination. If the Empire just gives up Skyrim, they may as well give up everything. Furthermore, I'd say roughly 30 - 40% of Skyrim is with Ulfric or specifically with the Stormcloaks. No. The Empire has GIVEN UP entirely too much already. We need to stand our ground and start TAKING BACK and HOLDING ONTO what is ours, or rather what is Talos's, for it's HIS Empire. Even if we have a clown ruling it. Empire can't help what TM2 has done and neither can Ulfric as they are both following their own agendas, not that of the people.

 

Yeah... what you're proposing there is too dangerous and is not reasonable. Would be just like Britain leaving the Allies during WW2 and saying that France would be a good "buffer zone" against Nazi Germany. Remember, Ulfric is in with the Bandits, uhh "Freedom or Sovngade" and duuuuhhh "Your kind doesn't belong here", attack whoever you want as long as they're not a Nord. Furthermore, if the Empire survives, then guess what? We only have to fight the Thalmor on at most, two front. From the South and the sea to the West. That's it with both fronts held SOLID. If the alliance breaks up, then there will not be any fronts, the Thalmor will just walk all over everyone. Because with several divided kingdoms, the Thalmor don't need to worry about multiple fronts. It won't even matter. Did you even read my previous post about this. They'll just start with Cyrodil and carve as much meat off the Roast when and whenever they want. You think Hammerfell or Skyrim will help Cyrodil if Skyrim secedes? Or Vice Versa. No one will care otherwise or help each other, because they'll all be too busy killing each other. Seriously. Oldest trick in the book. And as we all know, Elves are very CUNNING. I know, I've played a High Elf for years, even when people looked down on them for their Elemental weaknesses.

 

I'm not trying to say the Empire is all wonderful, it has some issues but sometimes we have to do things and have to make sacrifices that we don't want because the alternative, giving us what we want, is exactly what the enemy wants more. How many Euro countries back in the day wanted peace with Hitler? Or how many Greeks wanted peace with the Turks? They fought each other over petty differences and then they were all suddenly destroyed because their enemy was unified and didn't care about peace or equality or ethics or if the other people had lived in the land for millions of years before. Difference between wearing the pants and drinking milk. Life is hard sometimes and it takes a hero who isn't afraid of his own shadow to make things right.

 

And where in the hell is PELINAL WHITESTRAKE when you need him?

Edited June 28, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Ahtilah]

@bigmagy1981

 

Once again bigmagy1981, you are way to clouded by people with misguided 'assumptions'. Your 'assumptions' are just as right/wrong as Macsuibhne. Cause that is what it is, an assumption.(Based entirely around your own point of view of course, and his based around his) So you telling him that he is wrong, is wrong doing so. None of what you say has come to pass, therefore it is all up in the air. But what is certain is knowing Bethesda's intent, neither choice of Stormcloak or Imperial will spell doomsday. So somehow Stormcloaks will face the AD after the Civil War(eventually) after they win. NONE of which means they are going to be wiped the floor from them, which is what you are saying. Whoever wins the Civil War, whether you choose Stormcloak or Imperial will not spell Doomsday. Doomsday being what you are suggesting if you choose Stormcloaks. We can all speculate what will happen, but in the end it is a matter of which side do you fit in more, not which will end the existence of Skyrim or all humans.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Ahtilah

[StormHammer81]

@bigmagy1981

 

Once again bigmagy1981, you are way to clouded by people with misguided information. Your 'assumptions' are just as right/wrong as Macsuibhne. Cause that is what it is, an assumption.(Based entirely around your own point of view of course, and his based around his). None of what you say has come to pass, therefore it is all up in the air. But what is certain is knowing Bethesda's intent, neither choice of Stormcloak or Imperial will spell doomsday. So somehow Stormcloaks will face the AD after the Civil War(eventually) after they win. NONE of which means they are going to be wiped the floor from them, which is what you are saying. Whoever wins the Civil War, whether you choose Stormcloak or Imperial will spell Doomsday. Doomsday being what you are suggesting if you choose Stormcloaks. We can all speculate what will happen, but in the end it is a matter of which side do you fit in more, not which will end the existence of Skyrim or all humans.

 

 

Well at least someone's been paying attention :)

 

Now that I have a point we've shifted from you folks saying, "This is how it is" to where "Oh no, it's all just speculation now" Uh-huh. Nice! :wallbash:

Edited June 29, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Ahtilah]

@bigmagy1981

 

Once again bigmagy1981, you are way to clouded by people with misguided information. Your 'assumptions' are just as right/wrong as Macsuibhne. Cause that is what it is, an assumption.(Based entirely around your own point of view of course, and his based around his). None of what you say has come to pass, therefore it is all up in the air. But what is certain is knowing Bethesda's intent, neither choice of Stormcloak or Imperial will spell doomsday. So somehow Stormcloaks will face the AD after the Civil War(eventually) after they win. NONE of which means they are going to be wiped the floor from them, which is what you are saying. Whoever wins the Civil War, whether you choose Stormcloak or Imperial will spell Doomsday. Doomsday being what you are suggesting if you choose Stormcloaks. We can all speculate what will happen, but in the end it is a matter of which side do you fit in more, not which will end the existence of Skyrim or all humans.

 

 

Well at least someone's been paying attention :)

 

With respect, that's what this forum is here for. And don't tell me you yourself haven't engaged in speculation over this stuff cause I've read your posts. More than likely, you just don't want to hear my point of view. Yeah. It's ok when the Cloakies roll with their Crazy Talk about splitting everyone down the middle on 101 fronts, but to have an Imperial stand up for the Empire, presenting an argument which proves you wrong or at least offers another possibility, is unacceptable. I understand. This ain't my first barbeque. :devil:

 

Well, I have participated and never denied, but since then I have changed how I have been thinking. If you look at the last few posts by me, you would see such a change. ;)

 

I have no problem with hearing your point of view or passion for the Imperials within it, honestly I consider myself neutral among which side to choose. As I did cast a vote first day in this forum, but since have deleted the vote(Which was vote towards Stormcloaks). And I was wrong to vote, and I now admit to such.

 

But all in all, you are telling him he is wrong. But since you are making assumptions, you really have no place saying that he is wrong. So it isn't as much as you 'proposing a different possibility' but as much as you were saying he was entirely wrong.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Ahtilah

[StormHammer81]

Yeah, I know. You know what, why the hell am I even here today, I just got payed! Whatever, later!

[RighthandofSithis]

@MAC

 

Uh-huh well, everyone seems to think that an Independent Skyrim is going to be Neutral and this ahh "Utopia" of Civil Order. Rather, an Independent Skyrim starts out as a Neutral concept for Ulfric and then later on, we're talking about "Grand Purpose". So, no I don't think Skyrim under Ulfric is going to stay Neutral at all, certainly not for long. More than likely, Ulfric is going to go after the Empire or Hammefell. Remember, there still is "Bad Blood" between Skyrim and Hammerfell over history and territory. I think I'll take the liberty of being the first person in history on here to suggest that Ulfric would go after Hammerfell in the name of Skyrim. Or the Empire. So far he has actually done less than nothing about the Thalmor. Ulfric is not thinking of survival or standing together, he's pretending the Thalmor don't exist and that's how he running things. Like Skyrim has the luxury to meddle in intrigue and fight over pride. Pride is what got us the WGC. He's kind of Childish when you think about it...

 

I still don't know where this bad blood comes from. I may have missed some posts recently. However, all that I have found is that Luah (a necromancer and certainly not a representative of Hammerfell) and the Alik'r Warriors. I have not heard anything stating the Alik'r have been rejected from entering Whiterun for political or racial issues. All Bethesda has said is 'they are not welcome here'. I think that may be because they are bounty hunters that do not have any authority in Skyrim.

 

However, I will admit, if Ulfric wins, I actually hope that to some extent he attacks Cyrodiil. If he took Bruma (or assisted some revolution amongst the local population), he would have a buffer zone (and a well defended one, the only way to get to it from the south is to climb a very tall mountain) and complete control of Pale Pass.

 

I wish also to back up my point that I keep my politics and gaming separate.

 

Furthermore, you clearly lack a complete understanding of where the Empire's strategic planning is coming from, which from what I'm seeing TM2 is not a part of it :) Very inventive. I would not describe General Tullius and Legate Rikke as having a lack of imagination. Certainly, for Councilmen Armand to plan the Grand resignation of TM2 ILLUSTRATES that he has a veeerrryyy good imagination. If the Empire just gives up Skyrim, they may as well give up everything. Furthermore, I'd say roughly 30 - 40% of Skyrim is with Ulfric or specifically with the Stormcloaks. No. The Empire has GIVEN UP entirely too much already. We need to stand our ground and start TAKING BACK and HOLDING ONTO what is ours, or rather what is Talos's, for it's HIS Empire. Even if we have a clown ruling it. Empire can't help what TM2 has done and neither can Ulfric as they are both following their own agendas, not that of the people.

 

Yeah... what you're proposing there is too dangerous and is not reasonable. Would be just like Britain leaving the Allies during WW2 and saying that France would be a good "buffer zone" against Nazi Germany. Remember, Ulfric is in with the Bandits, uhh "Freedom or Sovngade" and duuuuhhh "Your kind doesn't belong here", attack whoever you want as long as they're not a Nord. Furthermore, if the Empire survives, then guess what? We only have to fight the Thalmor on at most, two front. From the South and the sea to the West. That's it with both fronts held SOLID. If the alliance breaks up, then there will not be any fronts, the Thalmor will just walk all over everyone. Because with several divided kingdoms, the Thalmor don't need to worry about multiple fronts. It won't even matter. Did you even read my previous post about this. They'll just start with Cyrodil and carve as much meat off the Roast when and whenever they want. You think Hammerfell or Skyrim will help Cyrodil if Skyrim secedes? Or Vice Versa. No one will care otherwise or help each other. Seriously. I'm not trying to say the Empire is all wonderful, it has some issues but sometimes we have to do things and have to make sacrifices that we don't want because the alternative, giving us what we want, is exactly what the enemy wants more. Difference between wearing the pants and drinking milk.

 

I'd say that the Stormcloaks have the support of 50% of Skyrim's population. I haven;t done any calculations or anything, but I believe this on the basis that Bethesda is not biased to either side.

 

 

On the point that Ulfric supports the Bandits, I would again have to argue. The lines "Freedom or Sovngarde" and "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" are generic combat lines for any Nord NPC. Even Housecarls yell this at anyone (Bandits, Forsworn, etc). I don;t see how this means they are supporting Ulfric. Bandits support themselves. They want to ravage the roads for any traveling merchants and make piles of money for themselves.

 

And if the Thalmor did take Cyrodiil, they would not only have to keep it (tying down a large amount of troops), they would also have their army right in the center of Tamriel. As I stated before, Hammerfell and Skyrim would unite. They know the common enemy. How long were France and Britain at odds until the Entente Cordiale was signed. When they unite, if the Thalmor have taken Cyrodiil, they'd leave themselves open for attacks from the North and West. If they try to expand, they would need to leave a considerable reserve force (or risk complete annihilation) in Cyrodiil, and thus hamper their own offensive. Furthermore, if they have a weak offensive force, it will be destroyed by the Nords/Redguards. And I'm still not taking the inhospitable environments of Hammerfell and Skyrim into consideration. When they loose their offensive force, their defenses will be weakened (as they have lost a sizable army already).

 

All in all, I'm just stating that if Skyrim were to leave the Empire, it doesn't mean the Thalmor will rule over Tamriel.

 

PS. Another thing I wish to bring up for discussion.

 

We known that the Redguards had won a rebellion against Tiber Septim (TES Adventures: Redguard), and that they reached an agreement keeping them in the Empire with terms more favorable to Hammerfell. In the event Skyrim wins it's rebellion, would a similar thing happen? This would be an easy escape for Bethesda in a following game, as it could be stated that either side could have won the war (in a very vague manner) but the Nords were not conforming to the Empire (in either case). As such, the Empire strikes a bargain that the Nords remain in the Empire, with some more favouable terms to Skyrim (greater independence etc).

 

And another thing, the whole assumptions thing is getting some attention. I wish to say that in a topic such as this, assumptions are necessary. We cannot predict the future without giving assumptions. The only thing we need is evidence. We must all admit we make assumptions, but to do so, we must back our assumptions with evidence.

 

And again another thing, I wish to express that I became a Stormcloak supporter only because my first post on the subject gave no decent arguments for the Stormcloaks.

Edited June 28, 2012 by RighthandofSithis