RighthandofSithis

It was joinable in Daggerfall, and it seems to have a place in the TES universe. I think it would stay.

Yeah, i did lose most of my interest in this, but I will quote Camilla Valerius who stated the great war ruined 'everything', and reference several Imperials who had migrated from Cyrodiil to Skyrim following the Great War in search of a better life (Kynesgrove, Whiteruns Alchemist, Falkreath's inn keeper etc). That said, are you sort of accepting my old argument sajuukkhar? That Cyrodiil is ruined, Skyrim is in chaos, Morrowind has nearly seceded (and is ruined) and perhaps High Rock is secure, while every other province has left the Empire.

That was my point. I conceed on that part about Skyrim 'begining' the Empires. But it has always been an important foundation stone of them.

Not quite right on the Lore front Alessia was a leader of a tribe of Cyrodiilic Humans - she succeeded in her rebellion against the Ayleids in part thanks to an Alliance with the Nords of Skyrim - she had however already seized control of the East of Cyrodiil before that alliance - the Alessian Empire was of Cyridiilic origin. Reman's origins are unknown (one book which suggests Sancre Tor but it is considered allegorical) however he created the second Empire by uniting the Kingdoms of Cyrodiil - again very likely the second empire was of Cyridiilic origin. Talos aka Tiber Septim did not found the third empire - he was serving as a general to the man who did Emporer Cuhlecain, who united Cyrodiil (for the third time). Cuhlecain was previously the king of the Colovian Estate within Cyrodiil. Cuhlecain was assassinated by the Bretons and Talos (wounded in the assassination and losing the power of the voice) assumed the throne and then went on to Conquer the entire of Tamriel (the only person to have done so). While we cant be sure about Reman's Empire (because there is virtually nothing about the man in the Lore) both the first and third empires were founded by uniting Cyrodiil and were both founded by natives of Cyrodiil. Reman was given most of Skyrim by the Akaviri from my knowledge. In that sense, it would have greatly helped build the Empire. With Talos, most nords went into his service after Sancre Tor, with only a few holds resisting him. As for Allessia, her Empire really only became a power after the alliance with the Nords. They engaged most of the Alyied forces at White-Gold Tower.

Point 1. Actually, if you visit fort Sunguard prior to completing the Civil war, they have indeed. Also, if you look at the strategic positions of the Forsworn (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Forsworn#Occupied_Areas), you will see that they have near completely (save Sunguard in the CW) cut Markarth off. the Control the Ridge with Whiterun (ie, the high ground), and every redoubt and fort along the roads in ever direction. Point 2. Cool :smile:. Although it shouldn't be surprising, as I've never hidden the fact that I'm a marxist. Point 3.Okay, but that doesn't suggest that ulfrics forces would be any worse than that of the Empire. Point 4. They want the nords out of the reach, True, and they want to 'punish' the Nords, but speaking to them (ie, in Cidhna mine), they state they are concerned with liberating their own lands, not taking over all of Skyrim. Like most national Liberation movements. Points 5 and 6. Okay, firstly, i don"t feel that claiming a 500 year civil war between 5 or so states maintained the Empire. Also, if you are saying that for the Empire to survive, it must be rebuilt, i agree. That, however, means it will be left to the Mercy of the Dominion (already well established and seemingly stable). Thus, if we want to rebuild the Empire, we need to start in a secure, defendable position. Oddly enough, Skyrim has indeed been the state that begins Cyrodiilic Empires in the past (From Alessia, to Reman, to Septim). But you nonetheless agree that the current state of the Empire is horrible? Point 7. The Nords migrated to Skyrim, ie they, as a group of barbarians, managed to live off the land. Also, we don't know how large the Nordic armies where (but the number '500' could give an idea) and they also decided to move away in small groups to do their own thing (allowing them to forage for a smaller number). it is also suggested that the Nords did not come to Skyrim in one big bloc, but in a series of migrations. Compare this to a coordinated invasion, that would be unable to bring civilians in order to save space for the troops and supplies (and what Altmer would want to live in Skyrim?), nor could it spare any troops or supplies to establish a colony. True, they could forage, but can the pale (the only hold they could even hope of landing in) sustain an entire army? They could break out into Whiterun, and effectively box themselves in the center of Skyrim (and there are no guarantees that that would maintain an entire army and the current populace either). So they would need to maintain supplies for a long, protracted war by a sea route across and entire continent. That is the worst logistical move one can make (as over time, the navy would wear thin, and it would become incredibly expensive). Also, the tight space of Pale Pass would actually minimize the effect of any Aldmeri Fireballs, meaning the front ranks could be decimated (although the book, killing before you're killed states a trained shieldsman could deflect that magic), but the Aldmeri couldn't rely upon magic forever. And Elenwen states the justicars in Skyrim are far too limited. They'd be expelled/killed within a month of Ulfrics victory. Point 8. So you admit that pale Pass is more defensible than all of Cyrodiil's border with the Dominion? Point 9. But the US hadn't been torn apart like France or Germany (allowing the Permanent Arms theory to kick in), nor had it lost the majority of its states to a hostile force on its border. Also, the US was only in WW1 for a short time. Point 10. Cicero states, in person ALL of the Imperial province is ravaged by strife. In his Diary, he states SO MANY cities have fallen to violence. That is the important point to recognize, that the troubles plaguing Bravil are not isolated. And I wouldn't say the MT is involved. They seem to be having enough trouble in Morrowind. Point 11. I think the Equilibrium between the two forces is more marketable. It adds tension, and makes people want more and more. Horay for the profit motive :down:. Seriously, I don't mind that idea. It adds drama and mystery to the game. What will happen after the Main Quest?

Sorry but, that's like saying the Empire in Tamriel would survive if the Aldmeri Dominion conquered the whole continent. There might still be an empire in this case but definitely not the Empire we currently talk about - and even that is simplifying it immensely (and make it more like 2000 years than 4000, everything else is still heavily disputed as far as I know). Yeah, the Warring States Period only ended around 200 BC.

Point 1. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Forsworn_Note_%28Serpent%27s_Bluff%29 Looking into further forsworn controlled forts and areas in the reach confirm this. Point 2. If we are talking my RL view of the conflict, I support independence for the reach completely (with criticsism of the forsworn, of course), just as I support the national liberation movements in palestine and Kurdistan. Point 3. Maybe I'm tired, an not looking at it extensively, but I didn't get that. Point 4. The reach is there homeland, the rest of Skyrim isn't. Does the PKK want to wipe all of turkey, Iran, Syria (Etc etc) off the map, or just establish Kurdistan? Point 5. That ignores the dialectics of the Empire's state. it is not the Dynasty, but the entire Empire that is collapsing. The Economy is undoubtedly in ruins (as a result of the Great War and ongoing civil conflicts) meaning that EVERY institution within the Empire is crumbling (the Legion for a start, as it is admitted to be overstretched). Point 6. No Comment. Point 7. The Sea Route has already been dismissed as logistically impossible. The Lengthened supply routes would only make an extended war in a hostile environment impossible. true, the Dominion could invade through Cyrodiil (and that would be the easiest route, as high Rock has a history of evading the worst of Imperial collapses due to its feudal system), but passing through a tight mountain pass is the worst position to put an army in. Firstly, a Nordic Phalanx could stop it dead in its tracks, and secondly, we should remember the Second Punic War. And then, as I have said, in the event the Dominion could take Skyrim on the battlefield, they would be in the same situation they were in with Hammerfell (or in RL, the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan), facing a hostile enviroment, full of nasty creatures and angry Nordic Guerrillas. What I really fear (if I can fear for a game), is that the DOminions goal is not to militarily conquor the Empire, but to instill a puppet government across half of Tamriel by weakening the EMpire to the point that it must concede to the Dominion. Point 8. Already discussed. Point 9. I conceed on the point about the US being a world imperialist power. I never denied it was Imperialist though (in the Leninist sense particularly). Nonetheless, the US was on the rise during the early (and late) 20th century, and in the 20s, didn't need to worry about an aggressive neighbor on its doorstep. Also worth noting, the American economy hadn't been destroyed by a 'Great War' (pun intended). Add serious Gang Warfare to say France or Germany (or some other state decimated by WW1), or perhaps even look at how Russia turned out after a serious civil war, and we may have a better comparison. Point 10. Again, ignoring dialectics. Firstly, each of these incidents (the Great War, revolution in Skyrim, Gang wars in Cyrodiil, and further back, the loss of various provinces during the early 4th era and Umbriel etc), are all connected, in one way or another, to the weakening of the Empire. Furthermore, the Gang Wars in Cyrodiil began long before lfric was even realesed after Markarth, and yet they are still continuing. Point 11. I agree. I expect a Dragon break or something, in which all factions win and lose simultaneously. Weird TES metaphysics and all that.

Firstly, it was also Skyrim that regained the reach. And the Empire seems to be handling the situation in the Reach rather poorly (like, being almost completely boxed in and closed off from retreat). And Skyrim lost the reach due to a lack of any armed force in the provinces (it is implied that a large force of city guards were levied). The Presence of Nordic forces in Markarth is dissuading the population of Markarth from rising up as they did in the Incident, and instead forcing the forsworn into a guerrilla war. And the forsworn are only interested in liberating their own lands (the reach), and rightfully so (OOC). And with the Empire, Skyrim is doomed to collapse with it. I've said this countless times, some resistance is better than no resistance. Regardless, in the worst case scenario, Skyrim would be able to win a war of attrition with the Dominion, modest scenario, they repel the invasion on the battlefield (Pale Pass, for example, would be on Skyrim's terms). Best case scenario, Skyrim and Hammerfell ally. And in the 20s, the US hadn't made itself a major Imperialist Power (on the world stage), and wasn't faced with the threat of invasion (or manipulation/internal meddeling by) a rising power bloc on its borders.

I know HKUS has become a Father (apparently), so that has effected his commitment here (completely).

I can't prove that the Empire is or will recover, although everyone, including stormcloaks, seems pleased when the East Empire Company starts up again in Windhelm due to the increased trade and revenue it brings. but you can't prove that the Empire won't recover. you can say that a few towns are rife with criminal activity and gang wars or have been sacked by corsairs, but the details of those attacks also point towards the Dark Brotherhood as being the targets of the attacks (why else would someone make enemies of an assassin guild by destroying the sanctuaries?) ALL the evidence is ambiguous, probably so that there is no right or wrong choice, but if it comes down to who has the best chance against the Thalmor, the answer is a united Empire rather than a bunch of independent provinces standing alone. NATO would never has thought about going into Croatia, Serbia or Kossavo if they were still part of the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact. No, the details of those attacks point to the entirety of Cyrodiil being the target. Take these excerpts from Cicero's journals: The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it. Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached. And ultimately, his comments in person sum up the situation: The Imperial province is ravaged by strife... Reading between the lines, there is nothing to suggest that the DB is the only target of all these attacks. In fact, it seems it is a secondary target if anything. gag Wars and total Civil Strife aren't aimed at an impartial organisation of killers, they are directed against rival gangs (in the case of gang wars), or in case of riots (perhaps occuring in Cyrodiil, with Bruma being a strong possibility), they are directed against governmental authority (an expression of alienation and anger etc etc). It would have been ridiculous to hire pirates to sack all of Wayrest just to get at the Brotherhood, something larger is going on there. Nonetheless, this is why the Empire is unable to recover. When entire cities erupt into violence (be it gang related or radical), and two (out of three) provinces are gripped effectively by a civil war of sorts (the destruction of the DB is a testament to how devastating the situation is), it is impossible to recover. In fact, things get worse. Infrastructure is destroyed, soldiers are killed, etc etc. And considering the violence in Cyrodiil has not ended (evidently by Cicero's comment) after 20 years, it suggests the EMpire is either unable, or unwilling (ie corrupt) to end the conflict.

To me, considering every notable NPC met in Sovengard refers to Alduin (notably, in this case, Rikke), I'd imagine Ulfrics comments after his death were intended to follow the main line.

Unless you can prove the Empire is recovering, my comment stands. From my analysis, the Empire has been declining for 200 years (with a brief patch-up with the rise of Titus mede I), but since the great war, has sunck at a much faster rate, a signal of things to come. Dialectics, my friend, Dialectics (now that I've actually read what that means).

-Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything) I think everyone can agree that the Great War ruined everything. that doesn't mean that it has to stay ruined. -Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos) only 2 or 3 incidents of violence and chaos are documented and they are a war between drug smugglers and attacks against the Dark Brotherhood (this is an assumption based on "why would anyone go to the trouble of making enemies of a guild of assassins unless the DB are the targets?"). -Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future) They now mine malachite for a living, unable to afford starting a lumber mill elsewhere. They can be heard constantly arguing about the life they left behind in Cyrodiil. "Wouldn't even be here if it weren't for my idiot sister." "I can't believe she dragged me all the way to this snowball. I'd rather be broke in Cyrodiil than broke here." "If these Nords don't let up soon, I might just make a break for it. At least Cyrodiil is warmer than this." "Oh, great, another wanderer. Slumming it on your way to Windhelm?" -Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished) yes, she moved 20 years ago and so she is right up to date on all the news from Cyrodiil. she says that she is a proud citizen of the Empire and Skyrim IS part of the Empire. she hasn't abandoned it, just moved to a different part. she also lies to try to make you buy cures and potions you don't need. I can blame Ulfric. as far as I'm concerned, Ulfric is like a clockwork toy that the Thalmor wound up and set in motion to destabilise Skyrim and the Empire. the Thalmor are the real villains and Ulfric is their tool. without him there would be no rebellion. the people and Jarls of Skyrim could have become independent from the Empire in the same way that Hammerfell did, if they were that upset by the terms of the WGC, but nothing happened for over 20 years until Ulfric (unknowingly working for the Thalmor) stirred it all up. giving the Thalmor the right to enforce the terms of the WGC in Skyrim and cause more unrest among the citizens of the Empire. Firstly, in regards to the characters quoted: 1. Constant Gang Warfare and Economic depression. remember, Cicero states the ENTIRE Imperial Province is ravaged by strife. 2. That does not deny that Cyrodiil is poor. 3.Similarly, that doesn't contest that Cyrodiil was or is poor. However, I've never heard here suggesting she is still up to date with news from Cyrodiil (although I haven't played in a while). In regards to Ulfric, remember he was imprisoned following the Great War, and prior to the Markarth incident, the Nords probably weren't organised enough to revolt. And applying RL revolutionary theory to Skyrim (Try Lenin), we can actually see that: A. Revolutions are not the result of one madman calling for war. They are the result of a desperate, destitute and disgruntled population, organised in or by a revolutionary organisation. B. The Empire is in fact in what Lenin called a revolutionary situation (4th paragraph: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/csi/ii.htm). Requires additional force to keep the population under control? Tick. Impossible for the ruling class to maintain control without change? Tick. etc etc. The Stormcloak rebellion is a product of both of the above.

No, And i wouldn;t expect it to be for a LONG time. Perhaps a few years or somesuch.

I think that was what they wanted the player to do in his first playthrough, but then information that is discovered during the game makes them choose Empire for their second playthrough I think bethesda put their hardest into creating a balenced and realistic struggle, without preference for either side.

Well, if we are questioning Cicero, how about corroboration from various Imperials who fled Cyrodiil, and Imperial Supporters who refuse to comment on these issues (other than stating they exist). -Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything) -Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos) -Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future) -Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished) So, unless we have some strong evidence on the contrary, i think Cicero (who is non partisan, and is able to recognise people based off one liners, kept a detailed journal, and took action so drastic so as to leave Cyrodiil with the Night Mother) is the best authority on the current Cyrodiilic situation. And don't blame Ulfric's revolution. The Empire found itself in a revolutionary situation (as falling Empires do). Its like saying the Russian Empire could have survived, were it not for the events of 1917 (and ignoring the situation russia found itself in, and the sentiment among the Russian people).

Cicero provides the main insight into the Cyrodiilic situation, and sums it up in Dialogue "The Imperial Province is Ravaged by Strife". He gives a more in depth discussion in his journals: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero%27s_Journal The Empire has far more to deal with than just Skyrim and the Dominion. The Chaos Cicero describes suggests that it would be impossible for the Empire to rebuild after such a devastating war (Camilla Valerisu states it 'ruined everything', along with common sense), not to mention Legates stating the Legion is overstretched as it is, and Imperial supporters recognising serious problems in the Empire, and refusing to address them (Rikke and Merilis). As i said, the Empire is collapsing, as it had been for 200 years. Nothing can stop it (short of becoming a complete puppet to the Dominion). Better to have some resistance than no resistance.

the Empire isn't screwed if you listen to what the "scheming councillor" says he says that killing TMII is the best thing for the Empire and that his death has probably saved it I said it contributes to it. Beside, what does Motierre say he will do? Does he deny that he will take the throne? Does he state he will declare war on the Dominion? Will he kiss the Dominion's arse? Saying you will do 'what is best' means you could do anything, I mean, the Assassination of Julius Caesar was supposedly 'for the good of the republic', and look what happened. I wrote point 5 of this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1

The death of the Emperor has other consequences: considering that it was a High Council member who hired the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate the Emperor it is fairly safe to assume that there are other Council members who also aspire to succeed Titus Mede II on the throne. This will probably lead to some sort of war of succession or power struggle (and no, I do not believe that the council members' sense of responsibility for the Empire as a whole will surpass their ambition to elevate themselves). Could it be a hint from Bethesda that the final Dark Brotherhood quest is named 'To Kill an Empire' and not 'To Kill an Emperor'? Yes, the assassination of the Emperor by scheming councils does not bode well for the EMpire, contributing to my arguemnt tht its screwed. Admittedly, there is no evidence that Titus II doesn't have a successor (although he could be next, or even refused power). And also, Titus Mede I the first arose after a few decades, not a few centuries (not that it reversed the decline of the Empire).

I agree with you to some extent. After the Civil War when Titus Mede steps into Solitude, Ulfric says he doesn't want to risk "Bringing the entire Empire down on Skyrim" by killing the Emperor. So, I would say if the Stormcloaks aren't strong enough to take on the entire Empire then any chance of stopping or attacking the Dominion would be out of Ulfric's reach. As the Dominion by all counts, is at least as strong or perhaps somewhat stronger than the Empire. I wasn't very happy when I heard him say that, because even after we just won, it means that Ulfric is saying the Empire is still far stronger than the Stormcloaks, even without Skyrim's help. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Ulfric however, until the Stormcloaks get established in Skyrim they are going to be vulnerable, but if they push too hard this could turn much of the populace against them. Firstly, 400 posts on my part. Not sure why anyone cares but whatever. On to business. The Empire, unlike the Dominion, has two borders with Skyrim, meaning it does not need to occupy a province and maintain supply lines to invade Skyrim again. Similarly, as most of Ulfrics forces would be committed to Haffingar, Pale Pass would probably be relatively lightly manned (in comparison to what it could be). Similarly, the death of the Emporer is implied (or so I'd imagine) to actually enrage the entire population of Cyrodiil. That said, I have no idea what the Cyrodiilic psyche would be like at the moment, with the presumed economic depression and gang wars (they could very probably be war weary). Nonetheless, yes, ulfric admits that Skyrim will need to rebuild itself following the civil war, and his claim that there will be peace for a period of time would seem justified, considering Cyrodiil would probably remain a sufficient buffer zone for a few months at the very least (perhaps a few years, even). With the inevitable decline of the Empire, a 'grab for cyrodiil', would probably help Skyrim's economy to recover (and give it a strategic position in Bruma). On the topic of recovering economies, would Tony Cliff's 'Permanent Arms' theory be applicable to the TES universe? If so, Skyrim;s economy (and Hmmerfell's, for that matter), could recover very quickly.

No. See below. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1 Although that article, for some reason, doesn't include the statement of how hostile Skyrim is, and how easily defended it is.

I could see bethesda using the defeat of Alduin to cause a dragonbreak, meaning both sides won. Probably Skyrim remains part of the Empire, but with significant Autonomy.

Remember that the only thing that will absolutely play on every single Thalmor wish is letting the war drag on. Not really. Either way the Thalmor got what they want, which is weakening the Empire. Skyrim was part of the Empiric Provinces of Tamriel. With the Civil War, they ceded from it, thus weakening the Empire and weakening Skyrim. If they wanted to invade, they could, and the Imperials couldn't even help them even if they wanted to considering what's inside the White-Gold Concordat. Indeed, the Thalmor's goal to weaken the empire seems to have been fulfilled, whether they instigated it or not. The Thalmor are but a catalyist of Imperial collapse. The Empire had been in a state of steady decline for 200 years, but since the Great War, and the rise of the Dominion as a great power, the Empire has begun to decline at a much faster rate.

I said you weren't, and was explaining that we could come into conflict (basing that off a few discussions with anarchists at the Marxism Conference).

When discussing Ulfric as a dictator, it is necessary to consider the issue in context. TES is set in a semi-feudal society, ruled entirely by local aristocratic elites. Furthermore, lacking Enlightenment ideology, or, more importantly, large scale industry, the Tamriellic bourgeoisie have no hope of challenging the feudal order, and we cirtainly lack any significant proletariat (perhaps in riften and Markarth?). tnu would argue that the peasantry would be able to create a classless society in their own right, but I'd counter that by saying they are too disorganized and loosely connected to propose anything more than Land reforms (yes, I'm a Marxist, tnu, best we keep to our own).