sajuukkhar9000 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 The case can be made...quite nicely too...that the situation in the Grey Quarter is appropriately an Imperial responsibility, or failing, however you wish to look at it. The Dunmer have been in Skyrim for 150 years. If the Empire has suzerainty over Skyrim...as it claims and as an impending Civil War to determine the legitimacy of that claim will decide...then it is ultimately the Empire's responsibility to look after its citizens...all its citizens. Nothing was done about the Grey Quarter by Torygg--the vassal King, sworn to uphold Imperial law--and nothing will be done by Brunwuff when...if..the Empire wins.Several Dunmer made it clear that it use to not be so bad in the grey quarter. So before Ulfirc, it was actually ok. Also we have no idea what Brunwuff will do after he takes over, game limitations prevent it from changing ad you cant take a game limitation as lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) Hey guys! As it turns out, Ulfric and Galmar did hold a Skyrim Jobs Convention and I was one of the few Imperials lucky enough to get a seat. We didn't come up with many solutions to the problem, however, there was a general consensus on the effect the Dark Elves were having on the economy. You can watch the highlights here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik @sajuukkhar9000 Yep, exactly. You know, I find it amazing how two sentences can provide me with more accurate information than an entire page. Which is more or less the point I said before, again ignored and twisted. @fraquar I hear you however, there actually ARE abandoned Mills and such. Look along the river, there's this mill where I believe all the workers ran off to join the war and it's just rotting with one lady who owns it, messing around all day. There's another one too somewhere along the river. And there are other indications that Eastmarch's land is empty. Plenty of opportunity for work. @sukeban I don't necessarily disagree with your post. Skyrim is the Nord homeland, however, many Imperials are Nord as well, which is what makes this thing that much more bizarre. Furthermore, the Forsworn ( 10 Kingdoms ) have a claim to at the very least, Markarth Hold as well, that is their homeland. Them being Breton doesn't matter, they immigrated to Skyrim and gave up Highrock for Skyrim as their home, where they established the 10 kingdoms. So the Skyrim belongs to the Forsworn as well. Nords were immigrants as well, from Atmora. Edited July 7, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeeLancer Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) From what I've seen, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Riften almost as "infested" with darkies/skalies as Windhelm ? Yet, even with all of the corruption, Thiefs Guild, Black Briars, incompetent leadership and skooma smuggling I don't hear non-Nords complaining about racism there.. Just the opposite, there are even people who actively help/support people in need, regardless of their skin color or social status (the fishery owner guy, Mjolni, that cleric of Mara). And could everyone just drop the rights of men, capitalism/socialism/communism debate and all of the other post-Victorian stuff out of the window and focus on medieval times and medieval mind frame of your average citizen ? Edited July 7, 2012 by FreeeLancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) Several Dunmer made it clear that it use to not be so bad in the grey quarter. So before Ulfirc, it was actually ok. So what you have is querulous whining on the part of...how many? two?...people who have not raised a finger to help themselves in 150 years. People the Lore cites as being "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Who are once and future slavers themselves. Have you made any attempt to talk to the Dunmer farmer who has a Nord field hand? Or the merchant in the square? Or the dark elf walking to Windhelm to join the SC, who says "Ulfric has the right of it." I suspect their testimonies will be dismissed out of hand even if you do encounter them. Also we have no idea what Brunwuff will do after he takes over, game limitations prevent it from changing ad you cant take a game limitation as lore. Well I have neither joined a faction nor finished the CW quest but people who have, tell me nothing changes after the Stormcloaks are defeated and Brunwuff becomes Jarl. Claiming that that's a limitation of the game is no more valid or convincing than claiming that it's a limitation of Brunwuff...or the Empire...or the vision of those who cannot see that for anyone to do anything for the Dunmer it will take cooperation, and initiative, from the Dunmer--something that has not been forthcoming in 150 years. Edited July 7, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) From what I've seen, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Riften almost as "infested" with darkies/skalies as Windhelm ? Yet, even with all of the corruption, Thiefs Guild, Black Briars, incompetent leadership and skooma smuggling I don't hear non-Nords complaining about racism there.. Just the opposite, there are even people who actively help/support people in need, regardless of their skin color or social status (the fishery owner guy, Mjolni, that cleric of Mara). One hundred and fifty years ago desperate Dunmer refugees were given sanctuary in Skyrim...by Nords...virtually without any strings attached. We don't know the initial conditions for Dunmer in Riften but it makes no sense, given historical analogues, that they were immediately dispersed throughout the area and population. There must have been camps if only to facilitate relief efforts. We might assume that such camps were implicitly temporary In Windhelm, the Snow Quarter was apparently vacant...a very different situation. So what you have is one instance where the Dunmer decided to integrate with the general populations and another where they decided not to. We don't know why that happened--the Lore gives us clues--but bottom line, Ulfric and the Stormcloaks weren't even a gleam in someone's eye at the time those decisions were made. And could everyone just drop the rights of men, capitalism/socialism/communism debate and all of the other post-Victorian stuff out of the window and focus on medieval times and medieval mind frame of your average citizen ? Why? Does wisdom or truth have contextual limitations? Are we down to "relative truth" now? But OK...let's just deal with feudal societies...in any medieval society, in any feudal context, the very mention of racism would have gotten you bewildered looks or, if you persisted, thrown into bedlam. It simply wasn't an issue in feudal societies such as 10th century Norse cultures...upon which Nord culture is putatively based. All medieval societies took and kept slaves. And Norsemen regarded ambition and "the song" (their legacy) as essential facets of manhood. Und so weiter... Edited July 7, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettM Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Regarding the "irony" of suppressing the religion of the Forsworn while fighting for freedom to worship Talos, I don't think the two cases are equivalent. There are certain exceptions to religious freedom that even we enlightened modern people will admit to. Do we allow any religion to tie people to stone altars and cut out their living hearts with obsidian knives? Do we allow any religion to throw virgins into lava to placate the volcano gods? Do we allow any religion to toss babies into furnaces to satisfy Moloch? Yet we do not regard ourselves as religious oppressors for forbidding such practices. If you look at the "old religion" of the Forsworn, it seems to involve barbaric practices that are regarded with great distaste even by other Reachmen. (Speak to the woman who runs the Hag's Cure in Markarth, for example.) If nothing else, that religion is headed by hagravens who are created by a ritual involving the sacrifice of an innocent victim (see the "Repentance" quest in Darklight Tower). It is hard to understand how the idea of a jobs program came up to begin with. Are there any Dunmer in Windhelm who are unemployed? The only two beggars in town are Nords. Three Dunmer own businesses, one owns a prosperous farm, one is a farm worker, one is a nanny, and one has a responsible position with a shipping company. Who exactly needs a job? I have a hard time seeing how Ulfric and/or the Stormcloaks deserve condemnation for their supposed racism yet the non-Nords deserve only sympathy despite their equal racism and criminal ways. One of the Argonians is not shy about telling us that "our kind" (Nord or Dunmer) are not welcome on the docks. One admits to being an ex-thief. One is a skooma addict. One suggests that he is not averse to pilfering from the goods he handles. One of the Dunmer complains that Argonians are naturally lazy, and she has no qualms about dealing with pirates to shut down her employer's competition. One is either an outright fence or willfully ignorant about the source of the goods he buys. Another tells you that you had best not deal with him if you're the sort that cares about where he obtains his goods. One may very well be an Imperial spy, giving some foundation to Rolff's general suspicion. Do they deserve no censure at all for their morally-casual, racist ways? It seems pretty hypocritical to put Ulfric's actions under a microscope while turning a blind eye to the flaws of those he allows to exist in his community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) ... Well said...the whole thing...as usual. Edited July 7, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) @MAC Hey, if that's your opinion, that's your opinion but that was not well said. I have no idea where this dude is coming from as usual. @Brett You can't ... keep turning a blind eye to the negative aspects of your faction and then telling us we're wrong. Heh, doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Furthermore...Regarding the "irony" of suppressing the religion of the Forsworn while fighting for freedom to worship Talos, I don't think the two cases are equivalent. There are certain exceptions to religious freedom that even we enlightened modern people will admit to... So then stop giving the Empire sh*t for banning Talos. Mr Modern society. The two cases are approx equivalent, there is no difference whatsoever. I'm sorry but that is wrong. So, Stormcloaks can worship their God but fck the Forsworn. It is their land and their Gods, JUST THE SAME as the Nords in Skyrim. Have you seen some of these Nordic ruins? What went on in there? Hmmm... Well, I will help you out with this one. Embalming tools, uhh walking Corpses who apparently weren't allowed to die, then we have sacrificial alters, Dragon worship/sacrifice. Shall I go on? Seriously folks. This is exactly why I quit being a Stormcloak because the ideology sadly, appears to somewhat selective, from the top down. Freedom for Nords alone. Then the opposite of that side of the logic is NO-FREEDOM for everyone else, EVEN if they're human == Evil == Thalmor Logic (Freedom for Elves alone). AND this is the biggest difference between the Stormcloaks and the American Revolution even the Alyssian Revolution. They fought solely on ideas and PRINCIPLE for ALL. Not just for Nords. Freedom for EVERYONE. Get mad, I don't care. Either we're all free with the same rights and God created us equal OR the other side. Make up your mind PLEASE. It is hard to understand how the idea of a jobs program came up to begin with. Are there any Dunmer in Windhelm who are unemployed? The only two beggars in town are Nords. Three Dunmer own businesses, one owns a prosperous farm, one is a farm worker, one is a nanny, and one has a responsible position with a shipping company. Who exactly needs a job? I have a hard time seeing how Ulfric and/or the Stormcloaks deserve condemnation for their supposed racism yet the non-Nords deserve only sympathy despite their equal racism and criminal ways.I... I... ahhhh.... I'm afraid I can't respond to this garbage or any other part of your last post without insulting you. Sorry, cause I'd *really* like to. How are you against Socialism again? Cause you sound very much far left. Just an observation. Edited July 7, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) So what you have is querulous whining on the part of...how many? two?...people who have not raised a finger to help themselves in 150 years. People the Lore cites as being "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Who are once and future slavers themselves. Have you made any attempt to talk to the Dunmer farmer who has a Nord field hand? Or the merchant in the square? Or the dark elf walking to Windhelm to join the SC, who says "Ulfric has the right of it." I suspect their testimonies will be dismissed out of hand even if you do encounter them. Woah dude..... just take a chill pill. I never said the Dunmer aren't in any way responsible for how shitty the place they live in is, I was just pointing out that it has gotten worse since Uflric got into power. No need to bite my ass off over it.Well I have neither joined a faction nor finished the CW quest but people who have, tell me nothing changes after the Stormcloaks are defeated and Brunwuff becomes Jarl. Claiming that that's a limitation of the game is no more valid or convincing than claiming that it's a limitation of Brunwuff...or the Empire...or the vision of those who cannot see that for anyone to do anything for the Dunmer it will take cooperation, and initiative, from the Dunmer--something that has not been forthcoming in 150 years.Actually claiming it is a limitation of the game is valid, because it is a game, the cities have limited in-game size, and because of the limited in-game size Bethesda didn't have the ability to put the Argonians anywhere. You can't take a in-game limitation as some evidence of what Brunwulf would do in lore. Also, the lack of cooperation can easily be explained as a fault of BOTH sides. The dunmer are not solely to blame for the lack of cooperation, as Ulfirc has made no attempt to them them either. Both sides are equally at fault. Edited July 7, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynster Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I don't think anyone is a "good guy" in the war. :armscrossed: None of the groups (stormcloak, forsworn, empire, thalmor) seem to justify what they do - kill/torture/harass innocent people for their cause. At least the Dark Brotherhood kills indiscriminately - and they don't pretend they are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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