StormHammer81 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) So, regardless of whether or not Torygg was a good king, a bad king, this guy or thata guy, he was still THE KING, chosen and supported by the Moot who represent the people of Skyrim. Now, if you go talk to Elisif's court they will tell you, that basically Torygg was seriously considering standing up and declaring indendence from the Empire, savy? Yeah, the woman who *knew him real well* :D basically tells you that Torygg greatly admired and respected Ulfric for wanting to be independent from the Empire. However, she also says that this is still Talos's Empire and Torygg wasn't ready to *let* it fall apart. And as someone else said, Torygg couldn't have done anything without the Jarls and that's what everyone thought Ulfric was there for. To show his support for Torygg and them stand together delaring Independence... LIKE THEY DID IN HAMMERFELL. :dance: Based on that right there, we learn that Torygg was a stronger King than Ulfric. Because even though he agreed with Ulfric, he was willing to stand up even to Ulfric for what he believed in, *On Ulfric's Terms*, preserving the Empire, preserving the work of Talos. And Ulfric, like some folks I've known in the past, couldn't argue with that. So Ulfric engineered a way to *Get Rid of Torygg* so he could have his way. It had nothing to do with Torygg not doing his job as much as Ulfric wanted Skyrim to follow him and what he wants. Just because Ulfric struck Torygg down in cold blood doen't mean Torygg wasn't right or wasn't a strong, caring man. Which is one of the reasons why the whole Duel concept was done away with, it's not an accurate means of resolving a conflict. All it means is just like in Markarth, Ulfric will do whatever it takes to get what he wants even if that includes murder. As for Elisif, she was never meant to rule alone. What if Ulfric challenges her to a duel now, I guess that would make him 2 for 2. Ulfric put her in this position, if an Alligator comes at me out of nowhere and takes my leg off I guess people can laugh at me for being a cripple when I had no say in it. :wallbash: Ulfric cares little or nothing at all for tradition, just whatever serves his purpose. Another thing, this whole *duel concept* is outdated. Now don't get me wrong I respect the tribal ways. But, these are modern times and Skyrim is under Imperialism. Not a Tribal Council. Technically speaking, that duel was illegal because it was illegal. Just like today, if you don't like the President or Governor or whatever elected official, going and killing them does not necessarily fix anything. So what you're saying is that John Wiliks Booth by shooting President Lincoln, proved himself to be more worthy of the Presidency. Cause that's basically what Ulfric did. He shows up under a flag of truce and instead of supporting his King, his friend, he carries out per-meditated murder. The Duel System was a function of the Tribal Council and while it was once used, is not a part of Imperialism or Skyrim's modern day society. There are rules of law that exist for a reason. Then there are other rules and ways of doing things that may have been done in times past, but were a part of that time period and that day's society and are no longer relevant, being a component of a former system of gov/soc. Furthermore, back in the Ye Olde days, the pagan era, when a duel was fought, both combatants fought each other on EQUAL FOOTING or not at all, using basically the same armaments. The purpose of the duel was to put both men on the same level, have them fight it out and let the Gods decide who was more worthy for whatever reason. :devil: Edited June 19, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted4666244User Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 i think both sides have their faults so there is no "GOOD" guy in this war:Empire-tyrranical to an extent and don't fully support nord tradition, but can provide better armor and trainig to its troopsStormcloaks-an army of fanatic soldiers can protect Skyrim and independence brings freedoms the empire gave up, but a lot of nords seem to mistrust non-nords in general also it seems to me that Ulfric wants to be high king and even goes as far as saying he does not want the position as it would be a better way to get the position he wants. just my opinion but i think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Now, if you go talk to Elisif's court they will tell you, that basically Torygg was seriously considering standing up and declaring indendence from the Empire, savy? If you're going to rely on what is said in Torygg's/Elisyf's court (she's not Queen., AFAIK) And you obviously don't want to hear anything said by Ulfric or that cohort...why not just sweep aside all the pretense and go right to the Thalmor for your information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetradite Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If you're going to rely on what is said in Torygg's/Elisyf's court (she's not Queen., AFAIK) And you obviously don't want to hear anything said by Ulfric or that cohort...why not just sweep aside all the pretense and go right to the Thalmor for your information? That's not the worst advice in the world. Their information on Ulfric is very interesting isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Torygg didn't even realize he was considering standing up for independence until he died, when his court put those words in his mouth to say good things about their dead king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) @MacSuibhne If you're going to rely on what is said in Torygg's/Elisyf's court (she's not Queen., AFAIK) And you obviously don't want to hear anything said by Ulfric or that cohort...why not just sweep aside all the pretense and go right to the Thalmor for your information? Not at all to argue with you, but that particular statement doesn't fit lore. First of all, Elisif worships Talos and even has a Shrine to Talos hidden in her quarters! Secondly, the Thalmor have absolutely *nothing* to do with the Skyrim royal family, especially sense they were getting ready to go indpendent. And if King & Queen worship Talos and their court is loyal... then I would say yes, they're a very reliable and honest source of information. @fraquar Actually, Torygg was leaning towards independence from listening to ULFRIC's speeches at the moot and the Jarl PTA meetings. Ulfric tried to silence Torygg and as you can see, it's backfired. :pirate: Edited June 19, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Not at all to argue with you, but that particular statement doesn't fit lore. First of all, Elisif worships Talos and even has a Shrine to Talos hidden in her quarters! If that's the case why did I have to drag...what was it?...some artifact or other of Torygg's to a shrine of Talos way down near Whiterun. She asked me to do it. But, I don't see how that pertains? Secondly, the Thalmor have absolutely *nothing* to do with the Skyrim royal family, especially sense they were getting ready to go indpendent. And if King & Queen worship Talos and their court is loyal... then I would say yes, they're a very reliable and honest source of information. That's not the point-- aside from the court in Solitude you couldn't find a more biased, more blatantly one-side point of view. They both have a vested interest in making Torygg look innocent and Ulfric look like murderer...desipte the fact that Torygg's court wizard Sybyll Stendar (?) says quite clearly that Ulfric had a legal right to challenge Torygg.. Meantime, the Thalmor, as is their racial penchant, are manipulating everyone. Every indication that Torygg admired Ulfric or that he was ready to grow a pair and stand up to the Thalmor, comes from Torygg's court. It's not in their interest to be objective. Edited June 20, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetradite Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Every indication that Torygg admired Ulfric or that he was ready to grow a pair and stand up to the Thalmor, comes from Torygg's court. It's not in their interest to be objective. Every indication that Ulfric is a good guy with good motives comes from Ulfric or his supporters. It's not in their interest to be objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) That's not the worst advice in the world. Their information on Ulfric is very interesting isn't it? Yes, it is. They say he is " Uncooperative". In fact, IIRC, the term is used in the dossier's heading. And again at conclusion. Beyond that, we don't have any evidence aside from hearsay which points to Ulfric currently doing anything to aid or help the Thalmor. Perhaps we need to be reminded that he was in their hands, as a prisoner and interrogated and presumably tortured. And the fact that the resulting dossier concludes that he is uncooperative speaks voluume for those open-minded enough to hear. On the other hand, we have plenty of prima facia evidence that the Empire (and Torygg) are actively cooperating with the Thalmor allowing foreign troops on Skyrim soil as well as the arrest, torture, and summary executions of Skyrim citizens that brook no appeal to Imperial law. In effect, Imperial law has been superseded by a Thalmor police state aided and abetted by Imperial sympathizers and cooperative "agents"...such as Torygg. Edited June 20, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Every indication that Ulfric is a good guy with good motives comes from Ulfric or his supporters. It's not in their interest to be objective. I would agree with you up to a point...that point being detailed in my last post. I don't give one sided accounts much weight. I do, however, start from one fundamental principle of fairness--the presumption of innocence. Actions speak louder than words. The Ulfric we know does nothing to directly aid the Thalmor...passively or actively...whereas the Empire and sundry Imperial sympathizers in high places do so almost eagerly. The Thalmor patrols are just one example...but one that illustrates incontrovertibly how corrupt the Empire is. The Empire invariably takes the side of the Thalmor rather than the side of its own citizens. Which is why Ulfric and the Jarls that support him want to be free of the Empire and the Thalmor. A reasonable aspiration from my point of view. Edited June 20, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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