Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[BrettM]

Balgruuf has been extremely lucky so far in dodging the presence of the Empire in his city. His people do, for now, have freedom of religion and speech, so things look pretty good from where he sits. But that means he is not fully aware of what is going on elsewhere in Skyrim and how others are suffering. He doesn't know how close Ancano came to causing a disaster. He doesn't have to look at a squad of Thalmor justiciars parading around in his palace, trying to recruit informants to help them with their dirty work and telling anyone who asks that the Empire only exists because the Dominion allows it to exist. He doesn't have Thalmor hirelings skulking around his city or standing outside his gates with assassination contracts in their pockets. Yet.

 

This can't last forever. Tullius wants into Whiterun as badly as Ulfric does, for the same reason: it's a strategic position. Tullius has reached the point where he's willing to "embellish" the facts to get what he wants, and I have no doubt he would have eventually gotten around to stronger forms of arm twisting if deception was not enough. Once the Legion troops are in place, I suspect the Thalmor won't be far behind. They have a presence in Markarth and Solitude, and no reason not to want one in Whiterun given its central location and status.

 

As for Balgruuf standing up for his own people, please tell me exactly how he stood up for them when the son of one of the leading families of his city was taken away by the Thalmor for torture. Did he even so much as write a letter of protest to Tullius or make any attempt to find out whether Thorald was alive or dead? Was he outraged that one of his people was hauled off without the benefit of a fair trial? I see no sign that he cared even a bit.

[StormHammer81]

Certainly.

 

Balgruuf has been extremely lucky so far in dodging the presence of the Empire in his city. His people do, for now, have freedom of religion and speech, so things look pretty good from where he sits. But that means he is not fully aware of what is going on elsewhere in Skyrim and how others are suffering. He doesn't know how close Ancano came to causing a disaster. He doesn't have to look at a squad of Thalmor justiciars parading around in his palace, trying to recruit informants to help them with their dirty work and telling anyone who asks that the Empire only exists because the Dominion allows it to exist. He doesn't have Thalmor hirelings skulking around his city or standing outside his gates with assassination contracts in their pockets. Yet.

 

 

Luck has nothing to do with it. Balgruuf is strong and wise. Otherwise he would have already changed by now. And he's also not dodging anyone. If others are suffering, I'm sure he feels for them but they're not his responsibility. He's got his hands full just taking care of Whiterun and Whiterun shines as an example to everyone else. Which is another reason why Ulfric despises him as Whiterun and Windhelm are like night and day.

 

Again, Ancano? ...has nothing to do with Whiterun. I suppose Jarl B is supposed to take care of the Camoran dynasty too. Which he probably could.

 

Damn right there are no Thalmor trash in Dragonsreach OR Whiterun for that matter. Haaa. Although they do frequent Whiterun hold however, the guards will not assist them if they attack you, but I digress.

 

 

This can't last forever. Tullius wants into Whiterun as badly as Ulfric does, for the same reason: it's a strategic position. Tullius has reached the point where he's willing to "embellish" the facts to get what he wants, and I have no doubt he would have eventually gotten around to stronger forms of arm twisting if deception was not enough. Once the Legion troops are in place, I suspect the Thalmor won't be far behind. They have a presence in Markarth and Solitude, and no reason not to want one in Whiterun given its central location and status.

 

Yeah but Tullius doesn't use force. This is an important point. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with embellishing your point. It's actually a skill utilized often in public speaking. It's almost like begging or pleading with someone, just using fancy or flowery words. Tullius also openly shares intel with Balgruuf, trying to warn him of the danger he's in. Because at first Tullius wasn't going to do anything but Legate Rikke convinced him to intervene in Whiterun. "Let him stand outside the Empire if he wants." Also, the only city with an Official Thalmor delegation assigned to it is Markarth. Well, I suppose Winterhold too but that's a different whatever. And... the Empire is not enforcing the ban on Talos worship and the Imperials Do Not like the Thalmor. They hate them as much as the Stormcloaks, maybe even more. Tullius sent numerous messages to Jarl B and in the end, he chose Not to use force against Whiterun. And Ulfric on the other hand, he used force to take Whiterun, challenging the Jarl and then didn't even show up at the battle to answer the challenge which he initiated. Do you see now why I have no respect for Ulfric?

 

 

As for Balgruuf standing up for his own people, please tell me exactly how he stood up for them when the son of one of the leading families of his city was taken away by the Thalmor for torture. Did he even so much as write a letter of protest to Tullius or make any attempt to find out whether Thorald was alive or dead? Was he outraged that one of his people was hauled off without the benefit of a fair trial? I see no sign that he cared even a bit.

 

Now this is interesting. First of all, the Grey-Manes do not like Jarl B. Therefore, why would they ask him for help? Additionally, it was the Battleborns who hooked Tharold up, not Jarl B. This is part of that family feud B$. The mother won't even talk to you about what happened until you're behind closed doors because of the Battleborns. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the Jarl. If they had gone to the Jarl, that would be one thing but they didn't. And I'm fairly certain Thorald was kidnapped somewhere outside of Whiterun.

 

Jarl B is a good, generous, honorable man who protects Talos worship and freedom of speech in Whiterun, standing tall, refusing to acknowledge the WGC, Empire, Thalmor or Ulfric. Just listen to what some of the Whiterun guards say, "Imperials, Stormcloaks, Dragons, Giants, it doesn't matter to me. Let them come."

 

Amen.

Edited June 21, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Caris129]

I don't really think there are any 'Good Guys' in this war. Both sides have their good and bad values, qualities and objectives.

 

Personally, I always side with the Stormcloaks, no matter what race I am. Some of them are somewhat, or very racist but I really admire what they're fighting for. They want freedom. They understand that the Aldmeri Dominion are abusing their power that they somehow gained. The Empire is obviously being slowly crushed by the foot of the Dominion, but they're too scared, too prideful and too blind to fight the abuse. I personally believe that the Imperials are siding with the Dominion/Empire because they're afraid they'll lose, again. I believe that it was wrong from the Dominion to make the Nords, and the Empire stop believing in one of their Gods. Think, would you want someone to steal one of your beliefs, one of your Gods from you? It's wrong, and that's just as bad; and even worse than the little/a lot (depending) of racism from the Nords. I would fight for what I believe in, and I would fight for someone who is trying to fight for what they believe in (obviously not some psycho belief).

 

The Imperials are also very rude. When I was walking to Whiterun for the first time, I past some warriors of the Imperial Legion. They were like, "Back off, citizen, this is Imperial business." When I passed some Stormcloaks, they talked to me an encouraged me to join with them. Wouldn't you want to join the side that respects you, and doesn't degrade you?

 

Also, I think this was brought up before, at the beginning of the game, why would you go with the Imperial dude? Wouldn't you go with Ralof who had morals, and was a prisoner with you from the start? I admired that he said that "A Nord's last thoughts should be of home," or he said something to the thief about dying with courage or something like that. I think it shows amazing character. I also like the idea of coming into this game together, and ending a war together. I know it's stupid but, at the same time, the game is based off of the stories, the quest-lines, the history. It's only partially the killing and action.

 

To be honest, I've never joined the Imperial Legion. I don't completely understand what they're fighting for, other than for defense. (Which probably says something about the Stormcloaks starting a war, but whatever) I probably shouldn't tell anyone not to join the Legion because that I don't understand what they're fighting for, but I understand what the Stormcloaks are fighting for, and to me, it makes sense.

 

Sorry for the long rant.

[RighthandofSithis]

@RighthandofSithis

 

Well, heh first of all, if you are a Communist than I really don't think you're someone to advise us on the economy. Because I have several friends from Russia, Chec and even a Greek friend and they told me all about the horrors that came out of Communism. Although I'll give you this, there are different flavors of Communism and to this day only China has ever been able to make it workout for good and Canada made Socialism work, but that's them too. Although they have their issues over their but I'm not Chinese. Europe and the US are dying from Socialist policies. We just can't keep paying for socialism and socialism is a cousin of Communism. I'm not a communist and I'm also not Capitalist. It's also too bad these damn Hospitals and CEOs are screwing people so bad over in the US. But I digress.

 

The Empire of Talos will only die if you let it by taking up with the Stormcloaks. Then I would agree, it's dead and that would be a tragedy. Then you would basically have (3) kingdoms competing against each other, which is exactly what the Thalmor want. The Empire has changed from what it was. It's not dying it's just a survivor of the changes taking place in Tamriel. For some reason, too many people view a loss of power as "Death". Not true. Sometimes loosing something is the best thing that can happen to you, although it may not seem so at that moment. The Empire of Talos is very much alive and fighting for it's life. If something is fighting for it's life than it's not Dead. Quite the opposite actually. Skyrim is much the same. Their fates are linked. If Skyrim dies, then the Empire dies. Granted though, there is much class struggle going on probably not just in Skyrim but throughout Tamriel in general.

 

 

I mentioned my communist beliefs at the point that the current economic system of Skyrim is great. I had no intention of addressing any point relevant to this topic with that statement.

 

However, if you wish to know more about my specific ideologies, I'm a Trotskyist. I am so because I believe Stalin had betrayed the revolution (As Trotsky had stated). I do not support the Great Purge etc etc. Just wanted to make that clear. If you wish to know more about what I believe, just ask.

 

But I believe the Empire is dying. I'll expand a bit more (As this morning, I was a bit rushed).

 

Start with the Oblivion crisis. This had caused much damage to the empire, and it lost Black Marsh, and Elsweyr within a year. A few years later, Red mountain erupted, causing widespread damage to Morrowind (which has not recovered), and allowed the Argonians to conquer southern Morrowind. this caused the Dunmer to flee to Skyrim (Windhelm), Solstheim and I'd image Cyrodiil.

 

Then the Thalmor take over Summerset Isles. Followed soon by Valenwood. This again would have damaged the Empire. For a time, the Empire is able to recover, and the thalmor assert their control over the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

Then, in 4E 40, Black Marsh and Cyrodiil are attacked by Umbriel. This threat is stopped by Prince Attrebus Mede. Nonetheless, it is likely that this caused damage to Cyrodiil in its own right (I think Leyawiin was attacked).

 

In 4E 98 the Void nights cause great panic in Elsweyr, when they end in 4E 100, the Thalmor claim responsibility for their return. As such, the Khajiit, grateful, join the Thalmor. However, there is no evidence that the Thalmor actually caused the return of the moons.

 

In the 4E 120s, Skyrim suffers The Great collapse, and a rebellion in Riften (causing Riften to be found now in its current state). This would have damaged Skyrim and the Empire.

 

Then, in 4E 171, the Great War ravages the Empire. Several Imperial cities are sacked, including the Imperial city. Bruma is the only city to hold out against the Thalmor. Ultimately, the Empire is able to reclaim its lands and force a peace with the Thalmor. The White Gold Concordat causes the disbandment of the Blades, the abandonment of Talos worship, the secession of Southern Hammerfell to the Dominion etc etc. The Redguards, understandable unsatisfied with the loss of their lands, rebel, forcing Hammerfell to be abandoned by the Empire. This clearly would caused much damage to the Empire. Not only did the Empire loose most of its soldiers in the war, but the immediate damage to Cyrodiil, the cost of the war and the loss of Hammerfell all would have emptied the Imperial treasury.

 

This caused the disintegration of the Empire to accelerate dramatically. While I will not deny that the Thalmor would have lost many of their resources in the Great War, I am yet to see a reliable source that states the Aldmeri Dominion has been suffering as much as the Empire did in the aftermath of the war. If anything, they gained more power over the Empire, instigating some of the events to follow and spreading spies (or, more spies) throughout the Empire.

 

During the Great War, the Reachmen had managed to take over Markarth. To deal with this, the Empire hires Ulfric Stormcloak to retake Markarth. This causes the Markarth Incident that will later cause the Civil War in Skyrim. As an interesting note, we know (or should know) that the Empire is based largely off the Romans. Hopefully the idea of hiring barbarian mercenaries to fight your own wars for you, and then find them fighting you rings a bell for any students of Roman history.

 

Then, in 4E 188, Wayrest, a city in High Rock, is sacked by corsairs (hired pirates, it may be logical to assume the Thalmor had something to do with this, but there is little information on the topic other than that given by Cicero). It is quite possible that the entire Illiac Bay, and even further, had been effected by these raiders. Wayrest was one of the most wealthiest kingdoms in the Illiac Bay, and this would have not only damaged the economy of the Empire, it may have caused unrest in the Breton population (as the Empire failed to assist them).

 

Furthermore, in the same year, Bravil begins to experience a serious drug war. It is known that this effects at least Cheydinhal as well, and it is likely that more cities in Cyrodiil experience similar problems. This would have caused further damage to the Empire.

 

And then, Skyrim experience its current civil war. Tullius states that this puts considerable pressure on the Empire.

 

When all of these points are taken into consideration, I believe that the Empire has not survived the various changes, but in fact, has been fatally wounded by them. Of course, the loss of Skyrim would be the last blow to the Empire, it being the link between Cyrodiil and High Rock. But I believe the Empire would collapse anyway. As soon as the Thalmor put pressure on the Empire, or another list of events occurs, it will fall. It would be best not only for Skyrim, but also High Rock, if they were to leave before they collapse with the Empire.

 

However, if Skyrim were to become independent it would allow for a renaissance of power to the region and diplomatic relations with Hammerfell (which after 20 years and a new generation of warlike Redgurads, should be a respectable power again) and High Rock (which would have been fighting amongst itself for 200 years). I further believe that when the Thalmor make any sort of move against the rest of Tamriel, Skyrim, Hammerfell and any other state against the Thalmor would unite (my enemy's enemy is my friend). I have previously made the connection with WW2, where the USSR and the Western allies, even though they were at odds, united against Nazi Germany.

Edited June 21, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[StormHammer81]

@RighthandofSithis

 

Ah! I see what you mean now. Makes sense. Didn't mean to come off rude there :D In the US right now, we're having a bit of an... economic-political-who's fault is it really crises.

 

Now, hmmm... the Empire of Talos has survived thus far and much of the ahhh "Damage" is no different than life. Life has it's ups and downs. Just like the US. America has had it's ups and downs and we've lost some, won some but we're not dying. Neither is the Empire, however, in fairness here there are some things which will need to be done if we're going to save the Empire of Talos. Cause right now it's looking more like the Empire of Mede. Now, TM1 from what I understand, was a pretty good Emperor. He wasn't perfect but he came from Old Skool Empire. To be honest, I like most of you, can't see where TM2, his son, is coming from. This does not mean the entire Empire should ahh "Give up and die" because we have a lame-duck Emperor.

 

Most of the Imperials out there are reformist, not apologists. I wouldn't dare go trying to rationalize or apologize for what TM2 has done, because I didn't do those things, those were *his* mistakes. Or out right failures, whichever you prefer. Or Treason :thumbsup:

 

Now, if we realize that this truth and that TM2 is "No true son of the Empire" then the logical next question is, "What of the Empire then?" What becomes of Talos's work which was the REASON he became a Divine to begin with. Savy? Therefore, as the Stormcloak I was, which I do still respect you guys, (Just not Mr 305) I had to make a choice. And the thing is here, once the Empire capitulates *completely* she's gone. DEAD. Never to rise again or come back. Because the Stormcloak Jarls and Ucaleptics would not allow the Empire to be resurrected and I believe, they also would NOT ally with *anyone*. Besides, there's a pretty nasty feud going on right now even, between Hammerfell and Skyrim over territory.

 

So I thought about it and I don't trust Ulfric, I don't like the Stormcloak Jarls (Although I do respect them), I don't care for how they run their cities or treat their people. I'm not saying that the Imperials aren't rude on occassion, however they have always been kind and helpful to me, often treating me like a King everywhere I go. Also, there this:

 

You talk about how the Imperial Escort was rude to you near Whiterun, I'll take your story and raise you two more. Every Stormcloak patrol or otherwise that I've run across, has threatened me with Violence and Death because I'm standing to close to them. Yeah!!! One time I was in the middle of Whiterun hold and then was in Falkreath on a separate occasion, which neither are Stormcloak territory and both times I was attacked. I tried to have a conversation with them and they assaulted me even though it wasn't their territory. The Imperials will only do this to you if they're escorting a prisoner. I verified that personally, which makes sense as it's not a civilian matter. The Stormcloaks will try to kill you just for being around them. Perhaps they think they own Skyrim, I dunno but I want no part of that.

 

So back to the Empire, if TM2 resigns or otherwise leaves office, then BOOM the Empire has a chance to become sexy again. The Dragonborn is also an heir to Talos, respectively and not having an heir to the Imperial thrown is what got us into this sad situation to begin with. This means there's hope and even more so, a chance for the Empire to be healed and to live on, restored to it's former Glory. But... only someone like the Dragonborn could accomplish this feat. And only he or she could unite Hammerfell back with the Empire and form a strong front against the Thalmor. This can be done.

 

This Civil War is the turning point. Things will either improve or we will all be divided, lawlessness, terror, murder will spread throughout what's left of the Alliance of man if the Empire falls. Ulfric and the Stormcloak leadership will sit back and allow their petty differences with Non-Nords and now Imperials and everyone else to just tear down everything Talos built.

 

The Thalmor are regrouping. The Thalmor are still weakened from the War. They are watching this and playing their hand as well. I will not allow the Thalmor to have it their way. You see what they're doing... they're making Talos's Empire kill itself, because of the rebellion against a ban on Talos which they forced onto the Empire, through a treaty which the vast majority never wanted. And no matter if the Dominion isn't as strong as before, it makes NO difference this time if the Empire loses. Because they could easily overrun and choke off each fractured piece of the Empire, having their agents keep everyone divided politically, and no one could do anything to stop them until it's either too late or they wouldn't be able to do enough due to lack of support.

 

As far as the Dominion oppression against the Empire, if Skyrim was to hold true and stay united, this means the Empire will continue on AND with the Resignation of TM2, you would see Moral sky-rocket and also have a much-reduced Thalmor presence in Skyrim. The Empire is not going to allow the Thalmor to stay in Skyrim if they win. Only reason they're there at all is because of Markarth. Once Ulfric is gone, there's no reason for the Thalmor to be there anymore because the Empire has kept it's word. It would also put the Thalmor in a great disadvantage and probably bring some respect out of Hammerfell for the Empire's plight because EVERYONE sees now, the Empire is Strong and is here to stay. And she is worth defending and she will not be torn apart by anything, including both petty political power struggles or one man's reckless desire to keep his thrown. Once TM2 and Ulfric are gone, a new day will dawn across Tamriel. With the Empire led by the Dragonborn, Akatosh and Talos and all the Divines will have cause to celebrate and support the Empire as they did in years past. And even if the Dragonborn should not lead her, the Elder Council and the Legion ARE NOT behind TM2 and they DO NOT share his insanity. The WGC will surely not last long. The Thalmor will have a choice: Respect the Empire again or Attack now. Either way, change will occur and new voices within the Empire will stir.

 

The Empire of Talos will be reborn and the Dragonborn will be it's salvation.

 

 

 

"The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. " - Ulfric Dossier

Edited June 22, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[MacSuibhne]

 

When all of these points are taken into consideration, I believe that the Empire has not survived the various changes, but in fact, has been fatally wounded by them. Of course, the loss of Skyrim would be the last blow to the Empire, it being the link between Cyrodiil and High Rock. But I believe the Empire would collapse anyway. As soon as the Thalmor put pressure on the Empire, or another list of events occurs, it will fall. It would be best not only for Skyrim, but also High Rock, if they were to leave before they collapse with the Empire.

 

However, if Skyrim were to become independent it would allow for a renaissance of power to the region and diplomatic relations with Hammerfell (which after 20 years and a new generation of warlike Redgurads, should be a respectable power again) and High Rock (which would have been fighting amongst itself for 200 years). I further believe that when the Thalmor make any sort of move against the rest of Tamriel, Skyrim, Hammerfell and any other state against the Thalmor would unite (my enemy's enemy is my friend). I have previously made the connection with WW2, where the USSR and the Western allies, even though they were at odds, united against Nazi Germany.

 

 

Great minds think alike...I posted something similar in another thread this morning. I'm not a communist, however, so we're not that much alike. :laugh:

[RighthandofSithis]

@RighthandofSithis

 

Ah! I see what you mean now. Makes sense. Didn't mean to come off rude there :D In the US right now, we're having a bit of an... economic-political-who's fault is it really crises.

 

I didn't interpret you as being rude, and I understand your opinion.

 

I also wish to make the point that my politics and my gaming are sperate, so please don;t get confused if I make an argument that goes against communist beliefs.

 

Also, I personally don't like using smilies (I don't know why), so I wish to point out that I am not trying to be rude myself. Just to be clear.

 

Now, hmmm... the Empire of Talos has survived thus far and much of the ahhh "Damage" is no different than life. Life has it's ups and downs. Just like the US. America has had it's ups and downs and we've lost some, won some but we're not dying. Neither is the Empire, however, in fairness here there are some things which will need to be done if we're going to save the Empire of Talos. Cause right now it's looking more like the Empire of Mede. Now, TM1 from what I understand, was a pretty good Emperor. He wasn't perfect but he came from Old Skool Empire. To be honest, I like most of you, can't see where TM2, his son, is coming from. This does not mean the entire Empire should ahh "Give up and die" because we have a lame-duck Emperor.

 

Most of the Imperials out there are reformist, not apologists. I wouldn't dare go trying to rationalize or apologize for what TM2 has done, because I didn't do those things, those were *his* mistakes. Or out right failures, whichever you prefer. Or Treason :thumbsup:

 

Now, if we realize that this truth and that TM2 is "No true son of the Empire" then the logical next question is, "What of the Empire then?" What becomes of Talos's work which was the REASON he became a Divine to begin with. Savy? Therefore, as the Stormcloak I was, which I do still respect you guys, (Just not Mr 305) I had to make a choice. And the thing is here, once the Empire capitulates *completely* she's gone. DEAD. Never to rise again or come back. Because the Stormcloak Jarls and Ucaleptics would not allow the Empire to be resurrected and I believe, they also would NOT ally with *anyone*. Besides, there's a pretty nasty feud going on right now even, between Hammerfell and Skyrim over territory.

 

Well, on the point that America has survived, I personally believe it is dying as well (and that's not just a communist rant) However, I have no desire (right now) to expand on that. Basically its in serious debt, its corrupt (in the respect that the big business owners can buy political policy), and the economy is failing in Europe.

 

I agree that the Empire is the work of Talos, but I'm not really arguing from a religious viewpoint. When I roleplay a Stormcloak, (I also roleplay Imperials, so I respect, and even admire, your argument), I usually have him worshipping the Old Nordic Gods, and Talos only to a lesser extent.

 

Also, I've never heard of any feuds going on between Skyrim and Hammerfell (other than that Hammerfell doesn't like the Empire). I know that Luah (right spelling?) doesn't like the Stormcloaks for not assisting Hammerfell. But other than that, I've heard of no border desputes between Hammerfell and Skyrim.

 

 

So I thought about it and I don't trust Ulfric, I don't like the Stormcloak Jarls (Although I do respect them), I don't care for how they run their cities or treat their people. I'm not saying that the Imperials aren't rude on occassion, however they have always been kind and helpful to me, often treating me like a King everywhere I go. Also, there this:

 

You talk about how the Imperial Escort was rude to you near Whiterun, I'll take your story and raise you two more. Every Stormcloak patrol or otherwise that I've run across, has threatened me with Violence and Death because I'm standing to close to them. Yeah!!! One time I was in the middle of Whiterun hold and then was in Falkreath on a separate occasion, which neither are Stormcloak territory and both times I was attacked. I tried to have a conversation with them and they assaulted me even though it wasn't their territory. The Imperials will only do this to you if they're escorting a prisoner. I verified that personally, which makes sense as it's not a civilian matter. The Stormcloaks will try to kill you just for being around them. Perhaps they think they own Skyrim, I dunno but I want no part of that.

 

So back to the Empire, if TM2 resigns or otherwise leaves office, then BOOM the Empire has a chance to become sexy again. The Dragonborn is also an heir to Talos, respectively and not having an heir to the Imperial thrown is what got us into this sad situation to begin with. This means there's hope and even more so, a chance for the Empire to be healed and to live on, restored to it's former Glory. But... only someone like the Dragonborn could accomplish this feat. And only he or she could unite Hammerfell back with the Empire and form a strong front against the Thalmor. This can be done.

 

This Civil War is the turning point. Things will either improve or we will all be divided, lawlessness, terror, murder will spread throughout what's left of the Alliance of man if the Empire falls. Ulfric and the Stormcloak leadership will sit back and allow their petty differences with Non-Nords and now Imperials and everyone else to just tear down everything Talos built.

 

The Thalmor are regrouping. The Thalmor are still weakened from the War. They are watching this and playing their hand as well. I will not allow the Thalmor to have it their way. You see what they're doing... they're making Talos's Empire kill itself, because of the rebellion against a ban on Talos which they forced onto the Empire, through a treaty which the vast majority never wanted. And no matter if the Dominion isn't as strong as before, it makes NO difference this time if the Empire loses. Because they could easily overrun and choke off each fractured piece of the Empire, having their agents keep everyone divided politically, and no one could do anything to stop them until it's either too late or they wouldn't be able to do enough due to lack of support.

 

As far as the Dominion oppression against the Empire, if Skyrim was to hold true and stay united, this means the Empire will continue on AND with the Resignation of TM2, you would see Moral sky-rocket and also have a much-reduced Thalmor presence in Skyrim. The Empire is not going to allow the Thalmor to stay in Skyrim if they win. Only reason they're there at all is because of Markarth. Once Ulfric is gone, there's no reason for the Thalmor to be there anymore because the Empire has kept it's word. It would also put the Thalmor in a great disadvantage and probably being some respect out of Hammerfell because EVERYONE sees now, the Empire is Strong. And she is worth defending and she will not be torn apart by anything, including one man's reckless desire to keep his thrown. Once TM2 and Ulfric are gone, a new day will dawn across Tamriel. With the Empire led by the Dragonborn, Akatosh and Talos and all the Divines will have cause to celebrate and support the Empire as they did in years past. And even if the Dragonborn should not lead her, the Elder Council and the Legion ARE NOT behind TM2 and they DO NOT share his insanity. The WGC will surely not last long. The Thalmor will have a choice: Respect the Empire again or Attack now. Either way, change will occur and new voices within the Empire will stir.

 

The Empire of Talos will be reborn and the Dragonborn will be it's salvation.

 

 

 

"The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. " - Ulfric Dossier

 

A few points I wish to make on this.

 

1. The argument that the Dragonborn will ascend to the Imperial throne is not impossible (in some respects its quite likely). But it's not a cirtainty. The Mede Dynasty still has its own heirs to the throne, and their has been no evience that the Dragonborn is a descendant of the Septim Dynasty. The origins of a Dragonborn are unknown.

 

2. While yes, it is possible for the Dragonborn to assume the throne, we still do not know if he will be able to reuinte the Empire. Tullius states that Skyrim is using 'much needed resources' and it is known that Cyrodiil is in chaos, and High Rock is facing its own problems (Ciero). To combat these problems, the Dragonborn will need to use a vast ammount of resources (which will weaken the border with the Dominion). The Akaviri Potentates tried this (albeit, the controlled all of Tamriel save Morrowind), and ended up completely destroying their armies. Furthermore, on the issue of Hammerfell, remember that not even Talos could subdue the Redguards. He was forced to make a deal with them on their terms.

 

3. The Thalmor documents on Ulfric states that the Thalmor do not want either side to win. And even if they would prefer a Stormcloak victory, how do we know that will turn out to be their best move. The US supported Fascism in the 30s, the Viet Minh in WW2, Osama bin Laden in the 80s etc etc. That didn't turn out to be their best moves. The point I'm making is, if the Thalmor support Ulfic in winning, they may just make an even stronger enemy.

 

However, I still respect this argument, and may take aspects of it when I roleplay and Imperial.

 

And MacSuibhne, I've been making this argument for months now. I seem to be very interested in this topic.

Edited June 22, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[BrettM]

Our Dragonborn need not be related to the Septims. There have been three empires, each one founded by a dragonborn who was biologically unrelated to any of the others: Alessia, Reman Cyrodiil, and Tiber Septim. The continuity, if you can call it that, is that each carried the gift of Akatosh, so the line of dragon blood was restored in the second and third empires.

 

However, I would be surprised if our Dragonborn ever took the imperial throne or established a new empire. The Amulet of Kings is gone and there is no longer a need to keep the Dragonfires lit to prevent invasion from Oblivion, which was the driving reason for having a dragonborn on the throne. That problem was solved permanently by Martin Septim. A new dragonborn dynasty would not have the high purpose of the previous dynasties, unless some new threat arises that again requires a dragonborn emperor. But, hasn't it been prophesied that the champion who defeated Alduin would be the last dragonborn?

[MacSuibhne]

And MacSuibhne, I've been making this argument for months now. I seem to be very interested in this topic.

 

Well I don't know if you saw my post...it was post #113 in the "Should I Join the Imperial Legion or the Stormcloaks" thread over in General Skyrim discussions. If you care to, look in on it, I'd be interested in your take. If nothing else it would elevate the discussion a bit.

 

BTW, I don't care that you're a communist...I hope you weren't put off by my joke. I have a very dry sense of humour, I'm afraid.

[RighthandofSithis]

Our Dragonborn need not be related to the Septims. There have been three empires, each one founded by a dragonborn who was biologically unrelated to any of the others: Alessia, Reman Cyrodiil, and Tiber Septim. The continuity, if you can call it that, is that each carried the gift of Akatosh, so the line of dragon blood was restored in the second and third empires.

 

However, I would be surprised if our Dragonborn ever took the imperial throne or established a new empire. The Amulet of Kings is gone and there is no longer a need to keep the Dragonfires lit to prevent invasion from Oblivion, which was the driving reason for having a dragonborn on the throne. That problem was solved permanently by Martin Septim. A new dragonborn dynasty would not have the high purpose of the previous dynasties, unless some new threat arises that again requires a dragonborn emperor. But, hasn't it been prophesied that the champion who defeated Alduin would be the last dragonborn?

 

Indeed, there is no known connection between Allessia, Reman and Talos, but they were not the only dragonborns. At least one hero of Sovngarde reveals that he is Dragonborn, but it is unlikely that he was ever an Emporer (perhaps High King of SKyrim).

 

And weather or not the player ever becomes an Emporer is up to Bethesda. I'd say that he wouldn't, and the Mede Dynasty will continue (in lore). But they may find a way around the complications and make them an emporer (but they would have to get around the actions of the player in game, gender, race etc etc).

 

And Mac, I didn;t even know you were making a joke. I'm a bit tired right now.

 

EDIT: I've just thought of something that may be worth noting (possibly an Imperial argument, but also a possible Stormcloak argument). At the start of the game, the only Jarls that have committed themselves to Ulfric cause are those of the Old Holds (albeit, Falkreath had its Jarl deposed). The Old Holds are known to uphold traditional Nord values very strongly, and have have been isolated from the rest of Tamriel politically.

Edited June 22, 2012 by RighthandofSithis