Ahtilah Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 You seem to think this 'united' Empire is strong. They pulled out of Hammerfell, which is still under fire and used to be one of their own states. What is going to stop them from pulling out of Skyrim, if Skyrim were to be attacked first? Self preservation, for starters? Skyrim is the only remaining link Cyrodiil has to High Rock. So you are justifying their cowardice? How is it justifiable? On one hand, if they were to continue fighting, they could have fended off and won against the AD and then counterattack. They had the manpower, and yet... They pulled out and signed a treaty to stop the fighting to make sure they keep the same borders. It is true if they kept fighting they would have lost borders, but they wouldn't have lost the war and would have been able to regain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 So you are justifying their cowardice? I explained why Cyrodiil would defend Skyrim. If you want me to go into the rest, I certainly can do so. How is it justifiable? On one hand, if they were to continue fighting, they could have fended off and won against the AD and then counterattack. They had the manpower, and yet... They pulled out and signed a treaty to stop the fighting to make sure they keep the same borders. It is true if they kept fighting they would have lost borders, but they wouldn't have lost the war and would have been able to regain. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. There is no way to know for a certainty what might have happened had the Emperor chosen to prolong the war. Contrary to popular opinion we know very little about the military strength of the Empire or the Aldmeri Dominion. As for how it is justifiable to sue for peace, Cyrodiil suffered a great deal of damage over the course of the Great War. With Anvil, Bravill, Leyawiin and the Imperial City in ruins the Imperials weren't exactly in a good position to defend the heart of the Empire. They did need time to recover. Is it fair/right that the entire Empire must suffer to prop up Cyrodiil? That is a matter of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAPALM13092 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 You seem to think this 'united' Empire is strong. They pulled out of Hammerfell, which is still under fire and used to be one of their own states. What is going to stop them from pulling out of Skyrim, if Skyrim were to be attacked first?(Unlikely for Skyrim to be attacked first, but possible). With your logic, doesn't that mean the Empire needs Hammerfell and they shouldn't of pulled out? But they have, and Hammerfell seceded from the Empire for it. Also, we cannot predict the actions of how the Empire will react at all, we as Skyrim folk, don't even really know this Emperor or his family except that they by force took over Cyrodiil. Even if we were to assassinate him(Dark Brotherhood questline) what then? Who is the successor? Is the successor better or worse? With choosing Ulfric, you have somewhat control and knowledge of who you are choosing. And it is a influential leader, not a racist as you have claimed, which is false. Helping his own is first priority, always. it is how it is with -all- leaders. Or how it should be, anyway. These Dark Elves that he didn't help? Not his people, refuges of Morrowind, not his own. And this mistaken racism towards elves, not entirely true. He may be harder on an elf player character, but not racist. He absolutely doesn't like the AD, which a lot of AD are High Elves. So understandable there, but their is the High Elf in the Market place who mentions why she isn't being mistreated, go and see what she says. She'll tell you that she proved she is useful, that is what the bad treatment is about. The Empire never pulled out of Hammerfell as much as they were forced out by the Redguards and after the Great War the Empire didn't have the stomach or the man power for yet another conflict to retain its lost province. They didn't have a choice in the matter unlike the situation in Skyrim. One of the terms of the White-Gold Concordat was that the Empire give a portion of Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion which was a win/win for the Thalmor and they knew it. Either the transfer goes off without a hitch and the Thalmor gain a foot hold in Hammerfell as a launching point for the 2nd coming war or (what ended up actually happening) it causes a rebellion against the Empire in Hammerfell from disgruntled Redguards. Even though the Thalmor were forced out by the Redguards and didn't get their land it did cause Hammerfell to succeed further weakening the Empire which was a bonus for the Dominion. The Medes have controlled the Empire for almost 200 years now and are well known across Tamriel. In fact it was Titus Mede the First that took over the Imperial City and brought the Empire back from the brink of total economic and political collapse after the Thalmor assassinated Ocato and fractured the Elder Council. They are far from some unknown line of rulers as oppose to Ulfric who is nothing but a local hero to half of Skyrim while the other half despises the guy and outside of Skyrim he would be lucky to make front page of the Black Horse Courier. As far as Ulfric being a racist? That is really semantics at this point but after having conversations with some Jarls and Stormcloak commanders I think prejudice and fanatical is an understatement. What would the Stormcloak movement accomplish in the long run? Few years of peace while the Thalmor tear the further weakened Empire to pieces before turning their renewed vigor upon Skyrim, free worship of some demigod, and facade of national identity masking animosity from foreigners and even some of your own people? In the end it seems very selfish and short sighted to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahtilah Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Didn't mean to stretch as far as saying 'that is how it will go down'. But yes, you are right. I could be right, but I could be wrong. No certainty should have been behind my words, even though that is how I sounded. But if Cyrodiil is going to bother having states, I would personally think it to be fair for all to suffer equally. But that is why Hammerfell seceded, they didn't think it was fair. But yes, who knows how it would have turned out if they had or hadn't, speculating won't prove points, and I was wrong to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahtilah Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) But calling him a racist is also an overstatement, even if calling him prejudice would be an understatement. Possible I have not gotten as deep as I thought into the matter of Hammerfell, so I am unsure if you are correct on that or not. As far as the Mede family, if we were to role-play this. Most people do not pay attention to politics, same goes for Tamriel. But you actually speak with Ulfric in a face to face encounter, that is what I mean by 'knowing'. I don't truly 'know' Obama, I've never had the pleasure/displeasure of meeting him face to face. Same goes for Tidus Mede and his entire family. Yes, they had in the past brought it up from bad times, but they did it by force. Edited June 26, 2012 by Ahtilah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAPALM13092 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 But calling him a racist is also an overstatement, even if calling him prejudice would be an understatement. Possible I have not gotten as deep as I thought into the matter of Hammerfell, so I am unsure if you are correct on that or not. As far as the Mede family, if we were to role-play this. Most people do not pay attention to politics, same goes for Tamriel. But you actually speak with Ulfric in a face to face encounter, that is what I mean by 'knowing'. I don't truly 'know' Obama, I've never had the pleasure/displeasure of meeting him face to face. Same goes for Tidus Mede and his entire family. Yes, they had in the past brought it up from bad times, but they did it by force. Even if Ulfric isn't a racist (I still think he is just not to as an extreme a degree as some of his lackeys) his rebellion certainly has the undertones of it. Then again most people have some degree of racism even if it is the 'hush hush' behind closed doors kind. That however isn't my biggest problem with the Stormcloaks, the lack of a positive long term agenda is. If you want someone well known with a personal connection with the people to be in charge then wouldn't either the Dragonborn himself or the mostly unbiased and well liked Jarl Balgruuf of Whiterun both make a better candidate for High King then the mixed bag you get with Ulfric? Keep in mind the moot to elect a High King hasn't occurred yet and while Elisif has strong Imperial support it is still up in the air. Also the Jarls of Skyrim are so different in their political motivations and alliances that a middle of the road guy like Balgruuf or the Dragonborn (depending on how you played it) would seem more likely to get elected then the extremes of Elisif or Ulfric that will split the vote 50/50. I agree 100% about the "bringing it up by force" bit. Is that really a bad thing though, and isn't Ulfric trying to attain his goal through violence as well? All the greatest nations in human history from the Roman Empire to the Macedonians grew and spread civilization and education through conquest. Tiber Septim brought unity and peace to Tamriel with the power of his legions and the Numidium. Diplomacy is nice when it works but sometimes change can only be brought about with iron and blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahtilah Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) What many points you bring are true. Ulfric does use violence, no doubt about that. But it depends who you ask if he did it by force. Unlike what happened with the Mede family, who everyone thought it was done by force(Atleast it is how the book states it). In the end of course, I suppose what he brought was justifiable, but only because he brought stability. If it went any other way, the family would have been known as Tyrants by all. I'm not saying it was 'all' bad, but I'm sure many would have rather had a voice in it. And you are right, I don't want Ulfric, but I do share the ideals of the Stormcloaks. Even if the goals are short sighted, it doesn't mean they will be after the Civil War. Whether Ulfric becomes High King remains to be seen, of course. And we shall see when the Moot takes place.(Assuming we see such an event) I've never stated that the Stormcloaks are the one with a plan, but what I do share is the idea of freedom to Worship Talos freely.(In a nord role-play here) Edited June 26, 2012 by Ahtilah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Why do people hold Balgruuf is such high regard, seriously? What has he done (or not done) in the game that warrants such high regard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahtilah Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) Why do people hold Balgruuf is such high regard, seriously? What has he done (or not done) in the game that warrants such high regard? Probably think him as noble, for how he reacts to things thrown at him. Personally, I think he could have told the Empire to shove the gold up their arses. But he sort of already has done that by after accepting the gold, he still allows talos Worship. Personally, I think the accepting the gold lowers my thoughts on him. And seeing as how his Children are spoiled rotten, shows his heirs won't be any good and likely overthrown, like the Jarl in Falkreath. Edited June 26, 2012 by Ahtilah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SplaTt333 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Guys you know what I think? You talk too much, go play the game :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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