Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[landy8]

Its my opinion that anyone with the conviction to do so can defeat the Thalmor. The Empire lacks that conviction, as made apparent by that treaty. If they hadn't signed that, none of this would have happened. Hammerfell would still be part of that Empire, and Skyrim's warriors wouldn't of come home to find that the Emperor they just got done bleeding for had sold their traditions to keep his throne and "buy time." Total rubbish, that.

 

The Empire's bruisers like to say that they are the only ones standing between Skyrim and the Dominion. I say they are the ones who opened the doors and let them in.

 

When the Empire fled the battlefield (like the cowards they are), Hammerfell fought the AD alone! And did not surrender! "Empire is the only thing standing between Skirim and Aldmeri Dominion"? I think it only stand in the way!

 

And, like I said more than once berofe, this is not the Empire I fought for in previous four chapters!

 

Added: Sorry, fraquar, didn't see your post before I've posted mine.

 

Added: Tidus44, if you're such a great Imperial fan, why did you vote for Stormcloaks?

Edited June 2, 2012 by landy8

[fraquar]

It is a polarizing subject, that much is certain. I think the game designers did a good job with that. Even the NPC's are polarized - there seems to be little common ground here.

[RighthandofSithis]

I see sense in Fighting for both causes. However, on a previous topic I made a very strong Stormcloak argument (because the Stromcloak, on that topic, had very little support other than 'I like Ulfric, hes cool').

 

The Empire had lost much of it's power and prestige during the First Great War. They still hardly have enough forces to put down the Stormcloaks (As the Legion has been forced to recruit locally). Not only that, but they lost Hammerfell, weakening the Empire further. However, it is not unlikely that the Thalmor are in a similar situation.

 

The Imperials always make complaints about the Stormcloaks such as; 'If they win, the Thalmor will attack Skyrim' and 'Ulfric committed war crimes in Markarth'.

 

Firstly, the only way the Thalmor could attack Skyrim directly is by sea. Considering they would have to sail half way around Tamriel to get to Skyrim, that would put incredible pressure on their navy to be able to secure the route (how do you think the Redgaurds and Bretons would like Aldmeri ships in their waters), and to actually get a decent supply line running. If they were to attack by land, they would have to either invade High Rock, Hammerfell or Cyrodill. In any case, they would have to occupy the cities they take (putting large strain on the Thalmor's forces), and if they attack Hammerfell or High Rock, the natives would be able to fight back.

 

Secondly, in regards to war crimes, the main source of information for that, The Bear of Markarth, is unreliable. Firstly, it was written by an Imperial Scholar. That's the most obvious case of bias I have ever seen. Also, it has no quotes or mentions other sources of information making it entirely dependent on the writers word.

 

If Skyrim became independent, that doesn't mean the Thalmor would be able to take over Tamriel. In fact, I believe that an alliance of Hammerfell (which, after 20 years, should be strong again, given a new generation of Redguards and Redguard martial culture), Skyrim and any other Anti-Thalmor factions would provide a more effective force of combating the Aldmeri Dominion, given the Empire's current weakness.

[Tidus44]

No worries, Landy8, I'll do it.

 

A buncha insult-laden hogwash.

 

Spoken like someone who really doesn't have any idea what's going on in the game at all, if you ask me. I know you didn't but I typed it anyway. I notice a trend in the hardcore pro-Empire crowd to ignore actual facts in the game, and rely on baseless insults and horribly one-sided views to argue their opinions with. Its fine if you're a die-hard Imperial, but at least get your facts straight if you're gonna get up on a soapbox with it. Ya'll spout this nonsense about Ulfric being a racist coward. Meanwhile Tulius does nothing but talk down on the Nords and hide behind Rikke. Nothing Ulfric himself says or does can be deemed particularly racist and Ulfric never surrenders, even with the sword of the Dragonborn at his throat.

 

Tulius on the other hand... does try to surrender in his final moments. Hardly a surprise, given the disturbingly yellow colored bellies of the Empire that sent him there.

 

As Ulfric said, The Empire I knew never surrendered.

 

And to those who still believe that a United Empire can beat the Thalmor, I ask you, "What Empire?" Do you really know what's left? There isn't much of an Empire to speak of any more. That Empire needs Skyrim much more than she needs them. And so, why should Skyrim's warriors leave their fates in the hands of the ones that sold their beliefs to the Elves?

 

As arrogant as its gonna sound, I can't help but believe that anyone who supports the Imperial side of the war really has no idea who they've joined up with. I've seen the outcomes of both sides winning (I can't bring myself to actually play through the Empire side, mind you, but I did my homework and some good old fashioned youtube-browsing for what I wouldn't see in my own game.) and there isn't a helluva lot at this point that could convince me that siding with the Empire is the right thing to do - even if Ulfric -were- the racist jackass that a lot of people claim he is.

 

 

Well, I had expected to have a relatively friendly debate with people, but I guess you and landy8 prefer to be rude and insulting and petulant rather than factual because someone didn't agree with your opinion. Sad to see.

[kamiwoo]

There's no good guys, nor bad guys, and this is good for me, i dislike black/white settings.

But in truth, is quite easy for the Dragonborn to side with anyone and control Skyrim at the same time, I doubt that Ulfric will ever forget that the Dragonborn can out-Shout him, it was through the Dragonborn help that Ulfric managed to become High-king if you side with the stormcloaks, with a shout the Dragonborn made him High-king, with a shout, the Dragonborn can unmake him.

In truth, the Dragonborn alone have the power to control anyone who becomes High-king, you have the Dark Brotherhood on your side after all, and the respect of many people in Skyrim, if the new High-king insist on making things difficult for the Dragonborn, well...even High-Kings die unexplained deaths, maybe dying "peacefully" in his sleep, long falls to the hard stones, thrown by a horse, choking to death on food, all strange deaths to tell the truth, but such is the way of "bad luck", life is always short in Skyrim, but it can be very short for those who refuse to listen to the Dragonborn "opinions".

 

And i'm sure the Dragonborn can always find a more "open-minded" High-king, the Dragonborn can fight the Thalmor no matter who wins the civil war.

 

The only winner in this war is you, the Dragonborn, you are the "good guy" after all.

[fraquar]

Pretty sure Jarl Balgruuf is doing no more about bandits occupying nearly the entire plains of Whiterun hold than Ulfric is in Windhelm. Worse yet, Balgruuf is letting them squat in the largest Iron mine in all of Skyrim.

 

Bandits flourish everywhere when a Civil War occupies the landscape - doesn't make Ulfric worse than any other Jarl in that regard.

 

Not sure I'd site that as a fact.

[Tidus44]

Pretty sure Jarl Balgruuf is doing no more about bandits occupying nearly the entire plains of Whiterun hold than Ulfric is in Windhelm. Worse yet, Balgruuf is letting them squat in the largest Iron mine in all of Skyrim.

 

Bandits flourish everywhere when a Civil War occupies the landscape - doesn't make Ulfric worse than any other Jarl in that regard.

 

Not sure I'd site that as a fact.

 

While I do not disagree that there are lots of bandits in the game, two things in the game suggest that Balgruuf is concerned and does do something about the bandits. Not that he is perfect, but he does something about them and has concern for his citizens.

 

Balgruuf has his steward offer bounties to clear the bandits through a number of radiant quests. He at least does something.

 

Speaking with Brunwulf (a citizen of Winterhold) he will tell you Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits.

While a radiant quest for a bounty for bandits can be gained from Windhelm, they are only available after Ulfric is dead and Brunwulf becomes Jarl.

Ulfric does nothing about the bandits.

 

I don't know about you, but someone who is at least trying is better than someone who could care less and certainly does not care about anyone who is not a Nord.

[Stemin]

 

While I do not disagree that there are lots of bandits in the game, two things in the game suggest that Balgruuf is concerned and does do something about the bandits. Not that he is perfect, but he does something about them and has concern for his citizens.

 

Balgruuf has his steward offer bounties to clear the bandits through a number of radiant quests. He at least does something.

 

Speaking with Brunwulf (a citizen of Winterhold) he will tell you Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits.

While a radiant quest for a bounty for bandits can be gained from Windhelm, they are only available after Ulfric is dead and Brunwulf becomes Jarl.

Ulfric does nothing about the bandits.

 

I don't know about you, but someone who is at least trying is better than someone who could care less and certainly does not care about anyone who is not a Nord.

 

Dude, you're wasting your time. The stormcloak gang is pretty good at ignoring what they want to ignore and speculating on a bunch of stuff we don't know (such as the state of the empire and what's going on in cyradiil or what Toyrgg was really like).

 

If you didn't read the Ulfric was right to kill Torygg thread, they should have named it the "pat yourself on the back if you like Ulfric Stormcloak" thread.

 

There's no reasoning with people who ignore everything they don't want to hear.

 

You're wasting your time.

[AstralFire]

o.O

 

Last few pages are a lot more hostile and dismissive (and annoyingly so) from both the pro-Stormcloak and pro-Imperial crowds than I think the topic really warrants... Felt like every other post I was reading was a veiled insult at the other side. Not a particularly harsh one, but not particularly friendly, either.

Edited June 3, 2012 by AstralFire

[RighthandofSithis]

 

While I do not disagree that there are lots of bandits in the game, two things in the game suggest that Balgruuf is concerned and does do something about the bandits. Not that he is perfect, but he does something about them and has concern for his citizens.

 

Balgruuf has his steward offer bounties to clear the bandits through a number of radiant quests. He at least does something.

 

Speaking with Brunwulf (a citizen of Winterhold) he will tell you Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits.

While a radiant quest for a bounty for bandits can be gained from Windhelm, they are only available after Ulfric is dead and Brunwulf becomes Jarl.

Ulfric does nothing about the bandits.

 

I don't know about you, but someone who is at least trying is better than someone who could care less and certainly does not care about anyone who is not a Nord.

 

Dude, you're wasting your time. The stormcloak gang is pretty good at ignoring what they want to ignore and speculating on a bunch of stuff we don't know (such as the state of the empire and what's going on in cyradiil or what Toyrgg was really like).

 

If you didn't read the Ulfric was right to kill Torygg thread, they should have named it the "pat yourself on the back if you like Ulfric Stormcloak" thread.

 

There's no reasoning with people who ignore everything they don't want to hear.

 

You're wasting your time.

 

On the contrary. I do know what is going on in Cyrodiil and I'm aware of the state of the Empire.

 

Cicero in his journal and in dialogue states that Cyrodiil is in a state of chaos as a result of drug wars. The Dark Brotherhood has been destroyed there as a result (and the DB isn't/wasn't a helpless faction).

 

The current situation of the entire Empire isn't looking to good either. Cyrodiil is in chaos (Cicero), Skyrim is in a civil war (game) and High Rock, form what little I know of its current situation, has been attacked by Corsairs (Cicero) (Or at the very least, Wayrest has fallen to them), and Morrowind has still not recovered from the Red Year and the Argonian invasion.