Georgia and Russia

[desperado2008]

just a detering pose, I cann't believe Russia dare invade America, she could by no means win US in a tatal war. Putin is not stupid.

[RayTracer]

I feel that Putin wants to annex Georgia back into communist control.

I see that some western people put their opinion about Russia on some stupid movies like "Hitman" etc ... This is very sad, but we have already got used to it ... How many times should be repeated? There is NO COMMUNISTS IN RUSSIA !!! The Communist party of The Russian Federation DO NOT HAVE ANY POWER in the state, because all they can do - it's FLAPING THEIR LIPS! People support those who is not afraid to incur responsibility for destiny of the country. Nobody wants to annex Georgia! It could be a BIG mistake!

 

hmm..think you may be mistaken there, timi. From 'The Little That I know', i think that Oesetia, the place in question, was part of Georgia; had been flooded with Russian nationals during the Russian Soviet Empire era; Georgia , on the collapse of the Russian Soviet Empire took what had been 'her's' back;Georgia would like to join NATO; the Russian 'Government', the present one, doesnt like it; and are using the presence of so many Russian nationals there as an excuse to go in mob handed. Plus, there might be oil, or some other valuable resource involved. Now, who would have thought that!

There is no russian nationals in South Ossetia! Ossetins is the Caucasian people. They are CITIZENS of Russia, they are RUSSIAN PASSPORT HOLDERS, but they NOT Russians - they are Caucasian people. Ethnically they are close to the same Georgians, Abkhasians, Armenians and others. Historically they lived in this territory. This is their territory! Here that speaks BBC:

 

The territory has appeared as a part of the Georgia as a result of strong-willed decision. The Soviet government in 1921 has included South Ossetia in structure of Georgia.

I hope you understand it. They don't want to be a part of Georgia - neither earlier, nor now.

 

I ask you Timihendrix91, why were Russian Peacekeeping forces in Ossetia in the first place? Ossetia is a breakaway province of "Georgia," thus simply by having those peacekeeping forces there, Russia was displaying a sign of aggression against Georgia by supporting a breakaway province in that manor.

In 1992 presidents of Georgia and Russia have signed the international contract according to which both georgian and russian peacekeepers should watch peace and order in South Ossetia to not admit conflict development. But, as i have already told, 07 august 2008 georgian officers and military observers from Georgia leave their posts of peacekeeping forces, referring to the command order, and 07 august 2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At that point in time the parity of number of the georgian army (which is invaded in South Ossetia) to number of russian peacekeepers made 12:1. Georgian army have attacked the city with civilians, which are citizens of Russia. The Georgian soldiers killed russian peacekeepers. Any questions?

 

Number 2, the US and the UK orders their civilians to evacuate an area that is in conflict. For example, the UK ordered 200 British subjects to evacuate Georgia. The US ordered it's civilians to leave the Lebanon when that conflict started. Russia did not do this, instead they sent "peace keeping forces" In my opinion Russia's being a big hypocrite in this conflict.

UK ordered 200 British subjects to evacuate Georgia? These people have arrived in Georgia with diplomatic missions or to make some business. Do you know that in South Ossetia live 120 THOUSANDS of ossetins (but now on two thousand it is less - thanks to Saakashvili and the georgian army)? These people historically lived in this territory! Did you ask yourself, why these people should leave cities in which they was born and have grown, to throw their houses, their work and to become refugees? Because Saakashvili requires satisfaction of national pride?

 

Moreover, Caucasus - this is not so easy, as you, probably, think. Do you know that the caucasian people have a blood feud, vendetta? Do you heard about Vitaly Kaloev, the ossetin who has killed the swiss aviadispatcher of Skyguide company, which was guilty in the Russian airplane destruction, on which were wife, the 11-year-old son and the 4-year-old daughter of Vitaly Kaloev? That's it! How do you think, whether the ossetins, who have lost two thousand of the compatriots, friends, parents or children to unite now with Georgia? Saakashvili is the stupid idiot !!! Now Abkhasia - the second rebellious region of Georgia, has started to fight against the Georgian army! Do you think, he did not know, all will occur so? He started the sh1t between the Caucasian people, that now can be tightened for MANY years!

[FesterbyNice]

I'm sorry, Nob0dy, but I have no idea what your last paragraph means. Are you trying to say that the Russians now have some kind of blood feud with the ossetians because one of them blew up a Russian plane? Or did a swiss person blow up a plane? Are Russia and ossetia at war with the Swiss?? Which Caucasian people have a blood feud, you're going to have to narrow it down from ALL OF THEM, AS THIS IS FAR TOO GENERAL. I'm caucasian by defenition, as is most of Europe. Am I supposed to hate the Swiss?

*weeps in fear of the swiss with their delicious chocolate*

[humanbean234]

<snip'd for space>

 

There is no russian nationals in South Ossetia! Ossetins is the Caucasian people. They are CITIZENS of Russia, they are RUSSIAN PASSPORT HOLDERS, but they NOT Russians - they are Caucasian people. Ethnically they are close to the same Georgians, Abkhasians, Armenians and others. Historically they lived in this territory. This is their territory! Here that speaks BBC:

 

The territory has appeared as a part of the Georgia as a result of strong-willed decision. The Soviet government in 1921 has included South Ossetia in structure of Georgia.

I hope you understand it. They don't want to be a part of Georgia - neither earlier, nor now.

 

<snip'd for space>

 

 

nob0dy,

Thank you for your input! Most (but not all) of us in this thread must rely on western news sources (Associated Press, Reuters, BBC, etc) for our information, and many get their news from CNN or FOX or MSNBC (those three "news" sources are less about news, and more about manipulation of public opinion).

 

It is difficult for most Americans to understand the politics of the former USSR, since most of the traditions of America come from Europe, and in Europe the political boundaries largely match the ethnic boundaries, with but a few exceptions (the Balkans, and the Basque region). I, myself, was unaware of any factor of ethnic tensions in the region... I had assumed the conflict was mostly political.

 

Fester: Cut the guy some slack, and don't make jokes until you've done your research! A quick Google would've netted you this information. Forgive the grammar; it's a machine translation into english from a cached page.

 

"Vitaly Kaloev lost his wife, daughter and son in the crash over Lake on the night of July 2, 2002, when Tu-154 "Bashkirskih Airlines and cargo Boeing company DHL. All passengers, including 45 children flying to a vacation in Spain, were killed. The catastrophe occurred in the zone of responsibility "giant".

 

In October 2005, the court recognized the Zurich rossiyanina guilty of murder air traffic, which guard the night catastrophe. The Prosecutor's Office demanded Switzerland Kaloeva sentenced to 12 years' imprisonment, but the court referred to the 8 year of strict regime prison. In June 2007, sentences reduced to 5 years and 3 months. A November 8, 2007 Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland has decided to rossiyanina early release."

 

To explain; a swiss air-traffic controller incorrectly performed his job, causing the collision of a cargo airplane belonging to DHL and a passenger airplane bound from Georgia to Spain. Everybody on board was killed, including the wife and children of Vitaly Kaloev. Mr. Kaloev proceeded to track down the air-traffic controller and kill him, for which he was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment in Switzerland. His sentence was recently commuted, and he was released from the Swiss jail where he was being held, but there's some bad blood between Georgia and Switzerland as a result.

 

Make sense to you now? EDIT: Upon further thought, I think I understand nob0dy's statement. It sounds like the Ossetians have a cultural practice of "Blood Feud"... kill one of theirs, they'll kill one of yours... and he mentioned the Kaloev case as an example. If that's true, the conflict in Ossetia will indeed take a long, long time to be resolved.

[desperado2008]

at nobody

interesting infos------and familiar tone, I must have seen you somewhere before.

 

This's the first time I deal with authentic americans(Dio mio, my english improves a geat deal through arguing), many of them are very thoughtful and objective, such as humanbean, of course, they have their viewpoints based on their own interests , so do others, I can understand that.

 

I think it doesn't make any sense to focus on how/why the conflict began, people may mistake it for propaganda, it is more important to predict how both sides react next and how the conflict ends

[FesterbyNice]

humanbean, thanks. Made a bit of an arse of myself, but computer is, i think, partially to blame. Everytime i tried googling vitaly kaloevi got an 'internet cannot display this page' page, and the computer ther crashed, rather annoyingly. Even when i got it back up though i could get no info on the man or any incident. Have no idea what the computer is playing at. Thanks again. Consider slack duly cut.

[DarkWarrior45]

I see that some western people put their opinion about Russia on some stupid movies like "Hitman" etc ... This is very sad, but we have already got used to it ... How many times should be repeated? There is NO COMMUNISTS IN RUSSIA !!! The Communist party of The Russian Federation DO NOT HAVE ANY POWER in the state, because all they can do - it's FLAPING THEIR LIPS! People support those who is not afraid to incur responsibility for destiny of the country. Nobody wants to annex Georgia! It could be a BIG mistake!

 

I don't think it's a communist regime that's currently in power, but I do think that the current Russian government is NOT a friend of the west, aka US, UK, France, etc...

 

Russia is targeting the Georgian government, plus they launched a full scale invasion of Georgia. Call it what you want, but what they're doing is an invasion. It's obvious that Russia used whatever happened in South Ossettia as an excuse to invade.

[Timihendrix91]

Russia also resumed regular high-altitude long-range bomber practice flights over the Pacific Ocean and Bering Sea... flexing their military muscle just to remind everybody that they're still a nuclear power.

You could be right, or they could just be practicing.

 

Russia is targeting the Georgian government, plus they launched a full scale invasion of Georgia. Call it what you want, but what they're doing is an invasion. It's obvious that Russia used whatever happened in South Ossettia as an excuse to invade.

So when the USA declared war on Iraq because it invadd Kuwait, did the US stop after they pushed the Iraqi army out of Kuwait? No, they pushed into Iraq. Explain to me how that is any less wrong than what russia is doing.

 

just a detering pose, I cann't believe Russia dare invade America, she could by no means win US in a tatal war. Putin is not stupid.

Again, we would most likely lose if we invaded Russia. If they invaded us, that would be probably be a different story, considering historically island countries (The US isn't an island I realize, but it'd still be the same basic idea) are harder to inve.

 

 

really long post

Thank you. You put it really nicely. :)

[humanbean234]

New Update: Russia has suspended offensive operations in the region.

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/a...ion-in-georgia/

 

The source where I viewed this article followed it with a link to a press-release about US President George Bush denouncing Russia's continuation of attacks beyond the point where Georgia was pressing for a cease-fire, and I'm not sure if this news agency was attempting to imply that Russia only ceased its attacks due to Bush's statements (I highly doubt it).

 

After nob0dy's explanation of the Vendetta tradition in the region, I think I understand why they would continue the assault for a time beyond Georgia's capitulation... probably the only way they could achieve some likelihood of preventing the Ossetians from conducting mass-scale vigilante attacks against Georgian citizens.

[Timihendrix91]

That's great to hear. It pretty much disproves the whole "Russia is trying to annex Georgia" idea.