NCR new vegas

[devinpatterson]

A place holder to start working on ideas for annex of New Vegas by the NCR.

[darkus37]

I posted this in my own and in your independent New Vegas thread already, but here it is again:

 

I actually had this idea, I posted it here not too long ago called Law And Order. Essentially, it was supposed to be the next step after Hoover Dam. If, for example, you played as the NCR, then you would lead the attack on the Fiends, taking over Vault 3; taking control of Red Rock Canyon; as well as decimating the Legion camps, Cottonwood Cove and the Fort like you did for Nipton. The NPC's spawning there would then be NCR. There could then be side quests of getting building materials to create new "forts" for the troops. Each town in the Mojave would then get an outpost, like Pimm had with NCR patrols going to and fro. If you side with the Legion, you would then attack NCR strongholds with the raiders falling in line. A bunch of crucified people would then show up along the highways while the legion would patrol the area.

 

I'll add to that with ideas specific to this thread. Post-endgame New Vegas will most likely have no securitrons. The natural inclination of the NCR would be to use the securitrons as a weapon. The problem is, who would have the controls? Let's face it, President Kimball is pretty ineffective, give him such a tool and it would end badly. The same with General Oliver. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That means that the entrance to NCR New Vegas would have to be enhanced with similar fortifications like the prison. Freeside itself would also be different, with, depending on how you completed the quests, the Van Graffs, The Kings, and The Followers either being closed down and/or replaced by NCR troops (or left alone if you make them allies). A couple more sniper posts would appear as well. Several troops would patrol the area removing the random thug spawn. Inside the strip, things would continue as before, but a statue of Tandi and/or the Vault Dweller erected. The NCR embassy and tram station would then be heavily fortified as well, with checkpoints at the entrance and turrets for defense.

[Skyviper086]

That's cool. It'd be even cooler to get on the darn train station and go back to California. Like to the NCR Capitol, but that's a different mod. Or we could use the train as a fast travel system.

 

Either way I like that idea now and in the other thread.

[devinpatterson]

If, for example, you played as the NCR, then you would lead the attack on the Fiends, taking over Vault 3; taking control of Red Rock Canyon; as well as decimating the Legion camps, Cottonwood Cove and the Fort like you did for Nipton.

 

Yep the NCR could definitely use help with the fiends, being so short handed, same with legion camps. We can setup the fort right away since it would be occupied very soon after hoover dam ended. Cottonwood a little later when Colonel Cassandra Moore issues the player the mission.

 

Red rock canyon will depend on the for the republic 2 quest. They may already be gone (one option is they leave when hoover dam starts), they may be allied with the NCR, or they may have already been killed by a suicide run at hoover dam. Just depends on how the player handled the Oh my papa quest.

 

The NPC's spawning there would then be NCR. There could then be side quests of getting building materials to create new "forts" for the troops. Each town in the Mojave would then get an outpost, like Pimm had with NCR patrols going to and fro.

 

Sure that could be a good long range plan/quest that could cover a lot of game time.

 

 

Post-endgame New Vegas will most likely have no securitrons. The natural inclination of the NCR would be to use the securitrons as a weapon. The problem is, who would have the controls? Let's face it, President Kimball is pretty ineffective, give him such a tool and it would end badly. The same with General Oliver. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

I think there is quite a few direction these could go.

 

First since Kimball and the senate are the current authority of the republic, there is no one with greater authority to judge them unfit (in re: to your argument of absolute power and corruption). The securitrons are powerful, even more so if they are the 2.0 versions. We have no idea how many securitrons are intended in teh sotry line but there are 125 "fake" securitrons in their own vault. In relation to the limited number of legion and ncr troops in the mojave that is a potent force. But one man gaining control of them isn't going to make him automatically king of the mojave, much less Arizona (legion) or CA (NCR). So the question IMHO really isn't whether he should or shouldn't have the securitrons, it's only can they be acquired/controlled by the NCR. No one whether Kimball or the Senate is going to ignore military assets like that and deny their recruitment under the NCR flag.

 

The same people your talking (Kimball, senate) about already have control over vetern Rangers, special military units like 1st recon, 1000's (maybe 10's of thousands) of troopers etc. That's why teh independent NV story line is interesting. It doesn't give you control of the Mojave, just puts you in the game. The big boys (legion/ncr) still hold most of the cards outside of New Vegas's walls.

 

So lets just jump straight to whether the NCR *can* gain the securitrons. You can't really wake up the securitron army without committing to the independent NV story line. You need Yesman installed, which you can do in a NCR ending, but you also need the eldorado switch and some switches at hoover which you can't do with the NCR ending. So at least initially no securitron army (but that could be a quest in the future for the mod).

 

That leaves the strip securitrons.

 

If Yesman was installed (doesn't require independent ending) there shouldn't be any problem for the player or anybody with access to the lucky 38 to have control over the securitrons, but only as far as the strip. The lucky 38 power plant has to be started for Yesman to have any control of secruitrons outside of new vegas's walls. So that makes them a limited military asset. Plus I'd recommend shortly after the endgame we begin Yesman's "update".

 

If the player didn't set up Yesman before hoover dam, then you'v just got the same setup as when the player kills/disables mr house. The strip securitrons just go about their normal business. If that's the case and the player doesn't know anything about yesman I'd recommend Colonel Moore task the player with removing the securitrons, perhaps assisted by some ncr vets. The other option would be a questline to add Yesman after hoover.

 

That means that the entrance to NCR New Vegas would have to be enhanced with similar fortifications like the prison.

 

Curious why you referred to the prison. Does it have any significance/implications other than just it's fortifications?

 

 

Freeside itself would also be different, with, depending on how you completed the quests, the Van Graffs, The Kings, and The Followers either being closed down and/or replaced by NCR troops (or left alone if you make them allies).

 

The Van Graffs shouldn't be affected they operate all over the core region, they're a major caravan family. They don't like the NCR and vice versa, but tolerate each other throughout California, so they won't be thrown out.

The kings should depend on how the player handled the GI blues quest, because the kings and NCR may have an alliance. If so they shouldn't be thrown out.

The followers work with the NCR, have a history of being allied with them and are all over the NCR held core region, they shouldn't be thrown out.

 

I think the problem is your looking at this as an invading army. The NCR doesn't want to break NV it wants to annexit. Which would make it a NCR "state", they'd have their own senator elected by mojave citizens (just like Redding) and be part of teh republic.

 

A couple more sniper posts would appear as well. Several troops would patrol the area removing the random thug spawn. Inside the strip, things would continue as before, but a statue of Tandi and/or the Vault Dweller erected. The NCR embassy and tram station would then be heavily fortified as well, with checkpoints at the entrance and turrets for defense.

 

Sure some sniper posts, turrets etc. I wouldn't go to crazy though, because you have to remember (at least initially) the NCR is stretched incredibly thin in the Mojave. You can see that by looking at their major fortifications such as Camp McCarran. It's their primary military base and lets face it, it's not exactly an impenetrable fortress.

 

re: the statue, yeah no reason that the strip can't be NCR'd up a bit.

Edited July 1, 2012 by devinpatterson

[darkus37]

First, I always understood that there were several thousand securitrons with more being constructed within the vault under The Fort when activated. The wikia sort of confirms that. A disposable and remotely controlled army placed in the hands of a weak man could end badly. You assume the senate and president has some innate morality and real power, but each senator is a politician - politicians who are just as morally weak as Kimball. I call your attention to the massive influence of the Brahmin Ranchers. While one man with one securitron cannot become king of the Mojave, a man with a robot army can and killing off the few safeguards against such a king (like the senate) isn't that far out of the picture. General Oliver could see the potential and no doubt might arrest or kill Kimball and take control of both the human and robot armies by declaring the NCR equivalent to martial law. Essentially, I believe that no one except The Courier, Mr. House, or Yes Man can safely control that power without going power mad, and that last one is debatable. The NCR army is powerful due to it's numbers, not because of skill or armament. The reason it's at a stalemate with the Legion is because they are relatively equal in numbers. But these numbers consist of people who are easily killed, hard to keep healthy, and need to be trained/supplied. The securitron army doesn't have these weaknesses and while not as numerous, doesn't have an equal and opposite force against it. Especially one that can be replaced in a matter of hours rather than years.The reason why Mr. House and Yes Man endings create a stalemate, is because the legion and NCR will then focus their efforts on the securitrons, not each other.

 

Second, Yes Man is the de-facto remote control for all securitrons after the main quest ends. Since he keeps jumping from securitron to securitron when killed, he is immortal. The only way to neutralize him would be to kill all the other securitrons. If he is not killed, he is a wild card, who knows what happens if he upgrades himself and then decides humanity is a virus that needs to be eradicated. In any case, he follows anyone's commands until his upgrade thus making himself the equivalent to carrying around a suitcase nuke. Why am I talking about this? The guard securitrons are controlled by Yes Man and thus will stop working without him.

 

Third, I referenced the prison because other than the power gangers infesting the place, the place is pretty secure. There's a mod already that lets you finish the quest and help take it over - you're probably going to have to add that to this. I would also look at McCarran - reinforced gate, sniper lookouts on the walls, a garrison. New Vegas and Freeside is too important to leave as it was, especially without the securitrons defending the area. Don't forget, it's one thing when you are annexing people who wants to be annexed (Texas) and people who do not (Hawaii). The Kings definitely did not want anything to do with the NCR unless you intervened. That means that at least at first, there would be a considerable military presence. My suggestion in the other thread of irregulars, or a militia, would help keep things calm in the more independent-wanting Freeside.

 

Fourth, McCarran airfield doesn't have to be an impenetrable fortress. There is only one way in, a well defended gate. The walls are thick enough to stop most explosives. There was very little they had to do to reinforce the place. Freeside is a town, with alleyways, a sewer system, and multiple entrances.

[devinpatterson]

First, I always understood that there were several thousand securitrons with more being constructed within the vault under The Fort when activated. The wikia sort of confirms that.

 

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, hell wouldn't be the first time today. So I went back and looked but I couldn't find anything suggesting 1000's much less confirmation. If you could qoute that for me so that we're on the same page I'd appreciate it.

 

You assume the senate and president has some innate morality and real power,

 

No, that' really not the point I'm making at all. I'm saying who would stop them, they are the highest power in the NCR, which is annexing NV. I'm not making any observation in re: to their morality or integrity.

 

but each senator is a politician - politicians who are just as morally weak as Kimball. I call your attention to the massive influence of the Brahmin Ranchers.

 

re: Brahmin Barons the only mention I recall of them was the white glove society, and other than Gunderson being wealthy and (apparently) aggressive I didn't see any mention of his influence. Unless your referring to a different fallout game?

 

While one man with one securitron cannot become king of the Mojave, a man with a robot army can and killing off the few safeguards against such a king (like the senate) isn't that far out of the picture.

 

Don't think you have to worry about that. The securitron army is small (125 in teh vault, maybe 20+ on the strip) and there's no reason to believe such will drive the president of the whole NCR (which has 1000's or 10's of thousands of troops) mad with power, same for Oliver.

 

I believe that no one except The Courier, Mr. House, or Yes Man can safely control that power without going power mad, and that last one is debatable.

 

Sure they can, point in fact the NCR are more powerful than NV and neither Oliver or Kimball have become bloodthirsty tyrants. The only reason the NCR hadn't annexed NV sooner is because they are spread so thin among so many states that have to be defended from so many external threats. That's what Ulysses keeps trying to drive home in lonesome road.

 

House himself wasn't a huge threat;

"In exchange for help with Hoover Dam and permission to use the McCarran Airport as its headquarters, House signed the New Vegas treaty, ensuring cooperation from NCR and, for a time, protecting The Strip from annexation.'

 

The securitron army doesn't have these weaknesses and while not as numerous, doesn't have an equal and opposite force against it.

 

No it doesn't you are essentially talking about a powerful city against one of the (arguably) largest post apocalyptic government in the western hemisphere.

 

he reason why Mr. House and Yes Man endings create a stalemate, is because the legion and NCR will then focus their efforts on the securitrons, not each other.

 

No the slides don't show any indication of that. It simply says house forces the NCR out of new vegas and hoover. I think your seriously over estimating the size of the securitron army. You need a 100 speach to talk Oliver down even with a securitrons from teh vault in tow. If there were 100's or 1000's you woldn't even need a speech check.

 

he is immortal. The only way to neutralize him would be to kill all the other securitrons. If he is not killed, he is a wild card, who knows what happens if he upgrades himself and then decides humanity is a virus that needs to be eradicated.

 

Yep it's one of the story lines I had for him, but not the only one. There are other possibilities that are interesting as well.

 

In any case, he follows anyone's commands until his upgrade thus making himself the equivalent to carrying around a suitcase nuke. Why am I talking about this? The guard securitrons are controlled by Yes Man and thus will stop working without him.

 

Yep, that's why it could be an intersting story line if Col Moore give the player the task of removing the securitrons.

 

Fourth, McCarran airfield doesn't have to be an impenetrable fortress. There is only one way in, a well defended gate. The walls are thick enough to stop most explosives. There was very little they had to do to reinforce the place. Freeside is a town, with alleyways, a sewer system, and multiple entrances.

 

My point here is that military bases are typically more secure than a civilian town. It would be an odd juxtaposition to have NV a more secure location than the NCR's main military base.

Edited July 2, 2012 by devinpatterson

[devinpatterson]

. Edited July 11, 2012 by devinpatterson

[darkus37]

It's been a while since I've played the full game through so my memory of some conversations might be wrong or colored by my own ideas:

 

The securitrons - I'll concede on this one, I don't remember why I thought this, but I could have sworn Mr. House mentions it. In either case, I think the 125-150 number is a little low.

 

As for the NCR government, the legion was stopping them from expanding past the Mojave. Consider the mission where you have to prevent/help assassinate Kimball. If they really gained that much power, you don't think the Legion Assassin Squads wouldn't go after them heavily? I mean up to that point, the only real target was General Oliver because he was a competent" military commander, but again, that is the impression I get.

 

About the barons, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was a conversation with Hanlon when trying to figure out why he was sabotaging the radio signals.

 

Perhaps you're right. I do appear to have an inflated sense of the numbers involved.

 

One thing though, Oliver is not the best representation for your argument. He has a bit of an us vs. them mentality where everyone not of NCR allegiance is them. His wikia entry. At the bottom from a Q&A with J.E. Sawyer:

 

"General Oliver doesn't seem to grasp basic military strategy. What real life persons were an inspiration for his character? Would you agree Oliver's the main cause the war is going badly for the NCR?"

"He's a mishmash of various aggressive, blockheaded military commanders. General LeMay is an obvious example, though completely without the forethought of this man."

 

Yes, military bases are usually more secure, but New Vegas is an exception to the rule. It has four sides of walls, no real entry through a sewer system (although I guess one can be dug), and only one gate (without a mod). However, that is where the similarities end as McCarran is filled with troops, New Vegas with gamblers. In reality, except for the lucky 38 that has legitimate defensive systems, the rest of the strip is pretty useless except for entertainment purposes. It's the image that's most important and having the NCR control New Vegas, arguably the most well known area of the Mojave would give a real big morale boost. Even if the only real difference after a takeover would be NCR banners all over the place, it would change perceptions on the NCR strength pretty quickly.

[devinpatterson]

It's been a while since I've played the full game through so my memory of some conversations might be wrong or colored by my own ideas:

 

No sweat, there's going to be a ton of things I'm going to forget or get wrong and vice versa, an advantage of the group process is that one guy catches what some one else may miss.

 

So lets move toward what would make good story lines. I see all three options do-able, but only two of them being interesting from a players point of view.

 

1. Yesman behaves and the securitrons continue they'r normal behavior. Boring but reinforces the securitron presence which is strongly associated with NV.

 

2. Yesman is not installed and since the NCR can't have robots going about a perpetual law enforcement program dictated by a dead/deposed tyrant (house) in a NCR town, they have to be taken out of the equation. There could be the typical violent way, or something more technically minded. Like for example the lucky 38 mainframe needs to be disabled. Not just the screen and terminal in the penthouse, but the actual mainframe in the lucky 38's substructure. It would in addition be protected by turrets and securitrons. So the player has at least two choices on how to go about that.

 

3. Yesman goes bad (or at least is not "pliable" to NCR wishes) and that the plotline we discussed previously. It could be a potentially huge adventure. It could be something simple like it decides to clear the city of peeps. But it could also be much more nuanced. Say for example it doesn't get violent per se, but decides some of the NCR orders are suspect or debatable and overrides or just "interprets" them differently. Moore would assign you the task of taking care of yesman/the mainframe, and much like the BOS or Khans (from "for the Republic 2") you find a way to create a "truce" of some type both sides can live with. Maybe Yesman is willing to reprogram the mainframe for human control on the condition that it's allowed to take a securitron body and become the players companion.....exploring the world. Maybe some other compromise would work, where Yesman is integrated somehow into the NCR power structure in return for his help. Mayor Yesman. Or maybe he's just gone all bad (or the player just wants to kill him) and violence is inevitable.

 

Some of those are already determined by the players behavior before the hoover dam battle (especially in re: to Yesman).

 

Plus I'm sure you can think of more plotlines in re: to the securitrons.

Edited July 2, 2012 by devinpatterson

[devinpatterson]

Oh and a variant of #1 where Yesman behaves. If you can start up the lucky 38 generator (switches in eldorodo, hoover dam) Yesman can also control securitrons outside NV's walls. So that means you could have patrols that resemble the outcasts from FO3, where a securitron (or two?) will be in a NCR patrol.

 

Wouldn't be a bad idea either, to add the option of the player holding/earning a civilian or military rank at some point in the mod. Whether that's a simple gunnery sergeant or as prestigious as a Senator of New Vegas.

Edited July 2, 2012 by devinpatterson