NCR new vegas

[sgtKraigO]

"The RobCo PDQ-88b Securitron model 2060-B is a security robot created and mass-produced by House Industries via its child company RobCo Industries and H&H Tool Company." the very first sentence http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Securitron

 

I'm not saying they can't be soldiers, I'm just saying they're combat effectiveness would be limited to primarily defensive roles based off of facts. In real life tanks require wide treads as it distributes the weight of the vehicle more evenly and over a larger area. If the tank has narrower treads they will be more likely to sink in soft terrain. Now I can't imagine the average securitron weighs as much as a light tank but they carry multiple missiles, grenades, ammo, and who knows what kind of electronics in a metal casing all balanced on a single wheel, so it's far from light. In muddy terrain the securitron will get stuck and this is just simple gravity.

 

A securitron wouldn't be effective in rocky terrain and cqc because of it's size and how it has to navigate around rocks and obstacles. It won't be able to use cover effectively unless it's larger than the robot but even then they wont be able to fire at the enemy from cover. If it has to move it won't be able to climb over rocks or obstacles in it's way, it will have to turn and go around it since it can't move sideways. They wont be able to go up steep hills properly because of the wheel and their center of balance.

 

As for victor he may have no limits so that way he can actually be helpful to the player, otherwise he either wouldn't be able to get up a steep hill or have to take the long way and miss the fight. His role is to persuade the player to help out house.

[devinpatterson]

"The RobCo PDQ-88b Securitron model 2060-B is a security robot created and mass-produced by House Industries via its child company RobCo Industries and H&H Tool Company." the very first sentence http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Securitron

I really hope your not trying to make the argument taht because they are a security robot they are limited to only a specific role as you see it. Let me give you a simple analogy. This is a hammer, it's made to be a tool. The fact that it was produced as a tool does not mean it's not effective if wielded as a weapon.

 

I'm not saying they can't be soldiers, I'm just saying they're combat effectiveness would be limited to primarily defensive roles based off of facts.

No, your not using facts, facts in this context are constituted by lore. You have opinions of how they should operate, without any support from game assets (which clearly show a potent offensive force, and no limitation in regard to movement or terrain) or lore.

 

In real life tanks require wide treads as it distributes the weight of the vehicle more evenly and over a larger area. If the tank has narrower treads they will be more likely to sink in soft terrain. Now I can't imagine the average securitron weighs as much as a light tank but they carry multiple missiles, grenades, ammo, and who knows what kind of electronics in a metal casing all balanced on a single wheel, so it's far from light. In muddy terrain the securitron will get stuck and this is just simple gravity.

You don't seem to understand this *is* the game reality. You can make a spurious argument about tanks or claim some inside knowledge in regard to a securitron's weight and it won't have the slightest impact on the fact that the securitrons don't have any trouble going over any terrain or performing in a offensive role. Your opinion won't affect them in the slightest.

 

A securitron wouldn't be effective in rocky terrain and cqc because of it's size and how it has to navigate around rocks and obstacles. It won't be able to use cover effectively unless it's larger than the robot but even then they wont be able to fire at the enemy from cover. If it has to move it won't be able to climb over rocks or obstacles in it's way, it will have to turn and go around it since it can't move sideways. They wont be able to go up steep hills properly because of the wheel and their center of balance.

Same as the answer above. Whether you believe they won't be effective in rocky terrain, go up steep hills etc, won't affect the securitrons performance in any way.

 

As for victor he may have no limits so that way he can actually be helpful to the player, otherwise he either wouldn't be able to get up a steep hill or have to take the long way and miss the fight. His role is to persuade the player to help out house.

Since he has the same capability in regard to mobility as any securitron, there's no need for some convoluted reasoning that he's somehow different in his means of transportation.

 

But seriously, I shouldn't be burning time answering and explaining to you something that is already in game and clearly obvious. If you don't believe me feel free to place a securitron in any landscape and you'll see they have no more difficulty than any bot navigating. In spite of that fact, and in light of no evidence from the wiki that supports your assertion you seem steadfast in your opinion. However I choose not to waste time arguing something that already exists in game. If you find game assets (the models, notes etc) that are actual evidence instead of opinion, and that support your beliefs, go ahead and link or display that info.

 

But the fact that you can't see a securitron traveling though mud because of it's weight, must pale in comparison to the insane, mind bending world, that is fallout as a whole. Traveling though mud or up steep hills isn't exactly the pinnacle of unbelievability in the fallout universe.

[sgtKraigO]

As I've stated multiple times before I am not saying they will make poor soldiers, I'm saying they have limited offensive capabilities. There is more to being a soldier than just attacking something, 16 million Americans served in WW2 and less than 1 million saw serious combat, and it's been stated that only 3 out of 10 soldiers fired their gun while in combat. I understand perfectly that this is a fictional world that we are talking about, but it is based off of our world and just like our world, there are basic laws of physics at play. But just because it's a game and not real life doesn't mean that basic physics don't apply. You have to have some basic ground rules on how things operate, otherwise a giant radscorpion that flies at Mach 1 using only its legs could be lore and no one could argue against it.

 

I wasn't trying to claim I know the exact weight of the securitrons, I was making a point that they are most likely fairly heavy given their size and what we know they're carrying around. Add to the fact that the securitrons only contact with the ground is through a single wheel, it's safe to say that securitrons exert high ground pressure. Exerting high ground pressure means that if it were to go through mud or soft ground the robot would most likely get stuck. That's why I mentioned tanks in the previous comment, sorry I wasn't clear enough.

 

When it comes to steep hills/inclines; as the robot moves they have to shift their weight forward in order to counter act the movement of the wheel, this would make it rather difficult to gain traction while going up steep inclines. Plus the wheel they have is meant for pavement, not off roads.

 

As for rocky terrain or obstacles, I'm not talking about pebbles. I'm talking about stuff that would hinder the robots movement i.e. anything that is slightly shorter than its wheel. Unless the robot is already moving forward and can steer around the obstacle there will be a problem. But if the obstacle is a railing, a short wall, a desk, a large rock etc. the robot will have to go around it, this can cause problems in combat. Imagine a securitron in a corridor and there is an object roughly the same size as the wheel, or even a little smaller, its only options are to pick it up, but now it can only fire its missiles in the confined space, or sit there blocking the path but able to fire, if the robot were knocked out of action then the next robot has to deal with the body as well as the obstacle, or it can back up and hope there is another way around. With cqc situations, the width and height of a securitron would stop it from even getting through the average sized door and going through the door is a pretty important step in clearing a building.

 

The securitron is a good robot, in the right situation, those situations primarily being defensive ones. It can react quickly to any attack, it can patrol an area for hours on end and not complain, it can keep supply lines secured. You just have to keep them powered and armed and you have a good defence force. But when attacking sometimes you have to be stealthy, sometimes you have to go house to house in order to clear out a town, sometimes the enemy has forced you to move through poor terrain, and every combat situation you have to use cover. A big hulking, mono wheeled robot can't do any of those, and any decent commander would exploit that weakness. Now before you chop this up as BS consider that not everything that is lore is found in-game, and there is gravity in the fallout world, actively affecting things.

 

Why doesn't the securitron doesn't get stuck in game, maybe because of how the devs set up path finding. They only tell the AI that they can or can't move through that area via nav mesh, it doesn't factor in what kind of terrain it is, what mode of transportation the AI is using, or how much it weighs.

 

Oh and I came up with a few quest ideas that would involve the NCR fighting the Legion and I will post it probably tomorrow or later tonight. Also I never answered your question on whether or not we should be able to upgrade the securitrons. I think it depends on whether or not the courier is informed about the army at the fort and if the courier is informed what exactly the chip does. If there is no way around that or it's rather difficult then I think upgrading them should be an option. If it possible to remain ignorant fairly easily then I'm not sure if it should be an option or not.

[devinpatterson]

In an effort to streamline this process and move along I will condense the pertinent points;

 

Once again you have to show some evidence of that opinion based on the game itself or it's lore. If you had, say, a terminal entry stating something along those lines (securitrons get stuck in teh mud) you would have evidence that the developers had a similar point of view in mind when they designed the securitron. I'm not aware of any evidence supporting that opinion. The fallout universe trumps reality in terms of not just of physics but history, chemistry and all other aspects when we are discussing the game itself. It wouldn't matter if you were a Nobel List of Nobel laureate and could show through a rigorous mathematical proof that something (a lot of things) in the fallout universe was simply impossible. It would have no impact on the game world itself or it's lore. You can put forth a 100 different real world reasons why you don't believe the Securitrons can do what they do in game, and it is superseded by existing game lore.

 

It's really very simple, if you have some evidence based on the game or lore, that securitrons are in some way less capable offensively or in regard to mobility than other bots, all you have to do is show it. If you don't, your opinion on what they should or shouldn't be able to do, is trumped by existing lore. In this case, the fact that they are effective offensively in game (on par with sentry bots), and have no trouble in the various terrains of the Mojave, is the existing lore.

 

Oh and I came up with a few quest ideas that would involve the NCR fighting the Legion

Good deal, looking forward to it.

[sgtKraigO]

Mr. House even states that the securitron army's primary use is defense. But essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't matter what basic laws of physics are in the fallout universe, that are observable in game, it's not mentioned so therefor it's not important.

 

Edit: Side note; what are the plans for Bullhead City? In real life there is a dam there and the NCR has control of it. It's not far from NV so I'm assuming it would be apart of the NV state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_Dam

Edited March 18, 2015 by sgtKraigO

[devinpatterson]

Mr. House even states that the securitron army's primary use is defense.

Yep, and when he uses it offensively it's primary use may be offensive. Nothing too cryptic there.

 

But essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't matter what basic laws of physics are in the fallout universe, that are observable in game, it's not mentioned so therefor it's not important.

Nope, that is not what I'm saying. I don't know if you are purposely making a strawman argument or if you genuinely can't grasp what I'm asserting. I'll lay it out for you. Fallout physics supersedes real world physics when it pertains to the game. Even your own chain of reasoning should indicate that to you, since there is A. gravity in the fallout world, and B. the securitrons have no trouble navigating that gravity.

 

My job isn't to prove a negative, your goal is to prove your opinion by using evidence supported by the game and it's lore. You continue to use nonsensical arguments like the name of the securitrons somehow defining their abilities. Can a protectron only protect or does it have offensive weapons. Just like the securitrons it can play an offensive role.

 

We're not talking rocket surgery here, if you genuinely believe that the securitrons are compromised in some way, in regard to their offensive capabilities or movement, your more than entitled to your opinion. If you want others to share that opinion you need to have something to back it up. Evidence in this world (because it's fictional) is the game itself or lore surrounding the game. Simple.

[sgtKraigO]

Just because the securitron can remain balanced, move forward and backwards, and conduct turns doesn't mean that it can go over every type of terrain. As I pointed out before gravity would have an affect on securitrons and its wheel is designed obviously for pavement. The only reason they don't get stuck in-game is because of AI path finding and how the ground is set up. There are multiple events and inconsistencies throughout the fallout games and the graphic novel, which are not considered to be lore. Just because it happens in game doesn't mean it's a lore. Just because a secuitron can make it up a 50-60 degree incline in game doesn't mean it's lore because, again of how the devs set up AI path finding. This is a universe that is based off our own, we have to apply basic laws of physics to it.

 

I'll give you an example, in skyrim you can have your horse do this http://cloud.attackofthefanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/skyrim-physics-horse-ps3-dawnguard.jpg

 

Now does that mean ALL horses in the elder scrolls lore can do that? No.

Edited March 18, 2015 by sgtKraigO

[devinpatterson]

Just because the securitron can remain balanced, move forward and backwards, and conduct turns doesn't mean that it can go over every type of terrain

That is your opinion, as is the assertion the wheel is made only for pavement, you need some evidence to support that opinion. The fact that there are inconsistencies in teh fallout universe isn't evidence. Stating that because something happens in game it isn't lore, once again isn't evidence for your point. Is it really so hard for you to believe the developers didn't intend the securitrons to be shackled to pavement and are as able bodied as any other bot in the various terrains of the Mojave?

 

Look I can explain it too you over and over again, as I have already, but I can't make you understand it. I can continue to burn time I should be spending on modding addressing your points, or I can simply face the fact that your input has had diminishing returns at best. Instead of helping or contributing your posts have simply increased the noise to signal ratio. Is that really the role you want to play in this thread?

[sgtKraigO]

 

Just because the securitron can remain balanced, move forward and backwards, and conduct turns doesn't mean that it can go over every type of terrain

That is your opinion, as is the assertion the wheel is made only for pavement, you need some evidence to support that opinion. The fact that there are inconsistencies in teh fallout universe isn't evidence. Stating that because something happens in game it isn't lore, once again isn't evidence for your point. Is it really so hard for you to believe the developers didn't intend the securitrons to be shackled to pavement and are as able bodied as any other bot in the various terrains of the Mojave?

 

Look I can explain it too you over and over again, as I have already, but I can't make you understand it. I can continue to burn time I should be spending on modding addressing your points, or I can simply face the fact that your input has had diminishing returns at best. Instead of helping or contributing your posts have simply increased the noise to signal ratio. Is that really the role you want to play in this thread?

 

 

I never stated they would be stuck solely on pavement, there are a lot of terrain they can go through it's just their wheel would hinder their movement through rough terrain and mud, lose sand, etc. Just because I said it was built for one role doesn't mean I think they can't do it, they just wouldn't be as effective at it.

 

We know for a fact that this takes place on Earth in an alternate timeline. We know for a fact that there is gravity similar to ours. So this means that gravity would affect everything the same way as here on earth. Because of gravity securitrons movement would be hindered as I've clearly pointed out before. We know for a fact that they can't use cover properly. We know for a fact they can't be stealthy. Just because there are limitations or missing factors in the game engine doesn't mean that they aren't there in the fallout lore. There size is obviously a problem when moving through buildings as doors are made for humans so they can't clear a town of enemy hostiles.

 

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/fallout.gamepedia.com/7/7e/Securitron.png

Their wheel is obviously made for pavement and smooth surfaces due to the tread pattern.

 

Because of these limitations a defending force could easily use terrain to bog down the robots. But the WW2 statistics I stated before as an example should make it obvious that there is a lot more to being a soldier than just simply attacking the enemy.

[devinpatterson]

Once again your asserting your opinion as fact without providing any evidence that they are less effective in combat or transportation than any other bot. You believe that, it's fine. If you want others to believe it, bring something that supports your claim to the table. If there's no note of it in the game by any of the characters, the wiki etc that should mean something to you.

 

I never stated they would be stuck solely on pavement, there are a lot of terrain they can go through it's just their wheel would hinder their movement through rough terrain and mud, lose sand, etc. Just because I said it was built for one role doesn't mean I think they can't do it, they just wouldn't be as effective at it.

Your own words;

 

their maneuverability is limited as they only have one wheel and wouldn't be able to fight in rough terrain.

In muddy terrain the securitron will get stuck and this is just simple gravity.

I don't know if you'v forgotten your previous statements, misspoke or are moving the goal posts.

 

You may believe that House designed, manufactured and stored 100s of Robots for the apocalypse with teh full knowledge that mud could defeat/immobilize them, but I personally think he's smarter than that and that securitrons can indeed handle the various terrains of the Mojave.

 

We know for a fact that this takes place on Earth in an alternate timeline.....

Stating the obvious and heading off on a tangent doesn't help to prove your assertion that they are less capable in re: to combat or mobility than any other bot. Something along the lines of House (or another NPC) stating they are unable or less effective at traversing some terrain, or terminal entry, not etc would be something useful for your claim.

 

You'v continued to state they are defensive in nature, claiming everything from their name to dialog that they defend NV as proof. It's simply not the case that they have any disadvantage over any other bots in regard to offensive capability.

 

As you've stated;

I'm not disagreeing that the securitrons are a good force multiplier, in the right situations, primarily defensive roles they can be really good at what they do. I do see their value as it frees up troopers/guards for other jobs and they never have to rest, eat, use the toilet, they can't be bribed, etc. they're good guards and good at patrolling in and around settlements. But they aren't soldiers, hence their name.

*You* may believe they are limited in their offensive capability, but a quick glance at their stats and weapons shows that is not the case. If you want me or anyone else to believe your claim you have to show they are inferior in some way, offensively to other bots, and actually the opposite is clearly true. Few vanilla bots can best the MKIIs, with only the sentry bot in the same class. You can claim they can't perform effectively offensively because of their size or inability to take cover, however the gameworld completely contradicts you, as does established lore. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a wiki entry listing them as impaired because of their size. And your opinion really doesn't seem to affect the outcome of their battles when they engage opponents.

 

Their wheel is obviously made for pavement and smooth surfaces due to the tread pattern.

And yet they traverse sand, dirt and asphalt with equal ease.......madness!

 

Anyway, I'v tried to direct you back on track, and have already explained your wasting time I could be modding. You don't seem amiable to moving the mod along, and by word count the majority of your posts seem to be just argumentative without any value for the project. I don't want to burn any more of my time so I'll say adios and we'll part ways here. Good luck on your future projects.