NCR new vegas

[sgtKraigO]

Sorry that was intended for Devins mod

[devinpatterson]

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to this for a while now due to being sick but as for the police http://fallout.gamepedia.com/NCR_Police

 

I don't suspect we'll see any civilian police in the NCR's newest state until years after it's annexed and has become civilized, but perhaps a detective or two may show up in New Vegas hunting a criminal or with info/leads/quests for the player.

[sgtKraigO]

 

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to this for a while now due to being sick but as for the police http://fallout.gamepedia.com/NCR_Police

 

I don't suspect we'll see any civilian police in the NCR's newest state until years after it's annexed and has become civilized, but perhaps a detective or two may show up in New Vegas hunting a criminal or with info/leads/quests for the player.

 

 

I wouldn't say "years" it would definitely take some time but I would like to think the NCR already has a plan ready for when they annexed NV. At max I think it would take about 12-18 months.

[devinpatterson]

I wouldn't say "years" it would definitely take some time but I would like to think the NCR already has a plan ready for when they annexed NV. At max I think it would take about 12-18 months.

 

 

Shady Sands has a population in the tens of thousands, possibly over a 100 thousand by 2281. It is the largest post war settlement, and densest urbane environment in the united states. It has a no weapon policy, a curfew etc. It's been the capital of the NCR for at least 40 years.

 

New Vegas won't even be annexed for another year, is a boarder town on the NCR frontier and still enmeshed in a war with teh Legion. Military will continue to occupy the city and various outlaying locations for years to come. Want to guess the population of the city of New Vegas?

 

I could go on and on, but I think the differences should be fairly clear to you. You may want to look into a bit of history as a practical example of how the west handled law enforcement, the military etc as the united states was expanding.

[sgtKraigO]

 

I wouldn't say "years" it would definitely take some time but I would like to think the NCR already has a plan ready for when they annexed NV. At max I think it would take about 12-18 months.

 

 

Want to guess the population of the city of New Vegas?

 

No actual numbers but a lot of people seem to go with 2-5 thousand (oddly enough I was looking that up yesterday) and once NCR living standards kick in that number will sky rocket.

 

The Legion is destroyed and I can't imagine without House and a pro-NCR courier the strip stays independent for more than a year.

 

As for rule of law the military doesn't like to deal with it. The NCR would have a plan for establishing and enforcing it's laws in NV as soon as it's theirs it will just take some time, this is where my 12-18 month estimation fits in. And sure it's a border town but it has the most amount of tourist attractions and has new jobs that aren't just becoming a grunt or shoveling brahmin crap.

[devinpatterson]

No actual numbers but a lot of people seem to go with 2-5 thousand

What people? Based on what? Show me even one bit of evidence hinting at as many as 5000 people living in New Vegas.

 

The Legion is destroyed

The Legion hasn't been destroyed, there are continued hostilities all along boarders between the NCR and Legion. That's basic lore you should be familiar with. Did you really think that after this one battle in a war filled with bloody conflict, that the Legion gives up and.......what? Just disappears, takes up farming? A super power of a faction that has been killing, conquering and enslaving every thing they'v come across for over 30 years, has lost a battle and so it ends?

 

and I can't imagine without House and a pro-NCR courier the strip stays independent for more than a year.

Not sure how this ties into your argument for a police force, but since this is the NCR ending your posting in, it isn't independent.....it's destined to become a new state of the NCR.

 

As for rule of law the military doesn't like to deal with it.

Your argument is they don't like to deal with it?

 

There's a lot of things I suspect the military doesn't like to deal with. If you argument is they won't, well they'v been doing it for over 7 years. Why, in your opinion, during these 7 years, have they been using MPs and not a civilian police force. The answer is fairly obvious, they consider the Legion, Fiends and other external threats a more pressing matter than a civilian police force (which typically deals with internal matters like protecting property, keeping the peace etc). The military can do both, police are not trained to counter the Legion, Fiends etc.

 

Up until the early 1800s when the first civilian police forces were formed, it was common place for soldiers to keep the peace.

 

The NCR would have a plan for establishing and enforcing it's laws in NV as soon as it's theirs it will just take some time, this is where my 12-18 month estimation fits in.

There's no evidence of civilian police forces in many of the other states and they'v been part of the republic for years. Yet you believe they will be ready to move in a civilian police force into the boarder lands and one of the most dangerous areas of the NCR's frontier? There's a reason why they are in shady sands, read my post above detailing population, urbane nature, etc. NV is a very different place, with very different requirements. That's why there hasn't been a civilian police force, for all the time the NCR have been here. It should be fairly obvious, as I mentioned in my post above, the differences between the NCR frontier and the core region. Equally obvious is why the military keeps the peace in NV as opposed to a civilian force in Shady Sands.

 

And sure it's a border town but it has the most amount of tourist attractions and has new jobs that aren't just becoming a grunt or shoveling brahmin crap.

And it has been for at least seven years, during which time it was policed and protected by the military, just as it will continue to be as long as the conditions require it.

 

Your argument, that because it's a tourist attraction and has good jobs, falls flat, when in fact that has been the case since the treaty of NV was signed and yet New Vegas was and is still policed by the military.

 

There's a reason why the developers set up NV this way, it makes sense in context of the environment. Just as a civilian police force makes sense in the context of Shady Sands, the biggest urban population center in post war America. The differences between the two are very straight forward.

[sgtKraigO]

I'll try to explain what I believe I was trying to say as I'm feeling much better.

 

The NCR has police in other areas other than Shady Sands "On the civilian side of the spectrum lie marshals and police formations, responsible for enforcing the law of the Republic within the territory of the NCR." last sentence, first paragraph under Military. http://fallout.gamepedia.com/New_California_Republic

 

My understanding is they also move police officers into new territory in order to establish rule of law "Territories can petition the Republic for annexation. Once the petition is accepted, the NCR grants the town territorial status and establishes a police and army presence in the location to establish the rule of law and eliminate law-breakers." first sentence, second paragraph under Immigration. http://fallout.gamepedia.com/New_California_Republic

 

Prior to the NCR winning Hoover Dam and annexing the Strip there are 2 things stopping them, Caesar's Legion trying to take the Dam, and Mr. House wanting the Strip for himself. Winning means those 2 threats are gone, doesn't matter if the Legion is still in existence they are no longer the military might they are.

 

The fact is Caesar's Legion is a civilization that lives on victories and dies from defeats and they just lost their second major military battles from the same enemy, in the same place after years of consolidating their forces in order to bring their full might against the NCR, and they lost. Not only that but the NCR harasses them during their retreat. Eventually the legion will collapse, Caesar being alive at the end of the battle will just prolong the Legions demise. Once it does go though it will split off into various factions with warlords and "New Caesars" which will fight among themselves as much as they will harass the NCR and the Great Khans if they move to Wyoming.

 

As for House, he was the only major opposition to the NCR when it comes to the annexation of the strip, the Families wouldn't put up a good legal/political fight by themselves since they're more interested in making money. If the courier helps the white glove society and the Omertas, they would be more likely to accept the annexation with little resistance if the courier is pro-NCR, which they are. As for Swank and the Chairmen although he seems loyal to House I can't imagine they would stand against the NCR alone. The annexation would go smoothly and quickly.

 

The NCR has been trying to annex NV for years now, and like I said before, they wouldn't have a plan to set up a police force as soon as possible after being there for so long. The military doesn't like to play cops and robbers and forcing them into a role they don't like and aren't trained for would be a disaster especially if they know they're going to be there for a few years. The Military would rather be dealing with raiders and securing the border than rounding up drunks and stopping fist fights, and there will be plenty of tourists looking to have a fun time that will be making the police officers lives eventful. That's why I think the best course of action available is to set up a temporary policing force consisting of rangers and MPs while training locals and bringing in existing police assets, which I believe would take less than 18 months, Primm would take even less time since it's a part of the NCR. Sure it will be a border state but that doesn't mean the military will run everything, it just means there will be a larger military presence.

 

The population of NV, one in terms of size doesn't matter, the NCR will still have a police force enforcing the law as that is their job. Two, the numbers I stated previously are just a few estimations I found somewhere online (I don't remember where other than it was a forum). I'm curious as to what you think the population of NV is as I believe 2-3 thousand sounds reasonable, given the number of settlements and various factions. But once it becomes an NCR state, people will come looking for new jobs since there will be a lot of construction, new branches of existing companies who haven't moved into the region yet, new farms opening, new political jobs, manufacturing jobs are almost non-existent pre-NCR victory. Add the fact that the NCR has higher standards of living than the rest of the wasteland and the decline in number of raiders, the population is going to go no where but up, and fast. There's also tourism, with gambling, drinking, various pre-great war sites like the Hoover Dam (that I could see being renamed) there will be a consistent number of tourists in Vegas.

[devinpatterson]

The NCR has police in other areas other than Shady Sands "On the civilian side of the spectrum lie marshals and police formations, responsible for enforcing the law of the Republic within the territory of the NCR." last sentence, first paragraph under Military. http://fallout.gamepedia.com/New_California_Republic

Yes there are other police forces in the NCR, one example are the hub police. Here is an excerpt from the Vault Dweller's memoirs;

"The Hub was a larger city than both Junktown and Shady Sands combined." It became a founding state of the NCR in 2189, approximately 90 years ago. You should see a pattern that mimics our real world. Note the size, population and how long they have been established then contrast that with New Vegas.

 

If your argument hinges on the term "police formations" military police will fit the bill, as you see in New Vegas they police the civilians. When I google police formations the only contextually pertiantnt entry that comes up on the first page is "Category:Military police units and formations".

 

My understanding is they also move police officers into new territory in order to establish rule of law "Territories can petition the Republic for annexation. Once the petition is accepted, the NCR grants the town territorial status and establishes a police and army presence in the location to establish the rule of law and eliminate law-breakers." first sentence, second paragraph under Immigration. http://fallout.gamepedia.com/New_California_Republic

Yes, much as they did before the annexation, in particular MPs.

 

Prior to the NCR winning Hoover Dam and annexing the Strip there are 2 things stopping them, Caesar's Legion trying to take the Dam, and Mr. House wanting the Strip for himself. Winning means those 2 threats are gone, doesn't matter if the Legion is still in existence they are no longer the military might they are.

No the Legion was never stopping them, they never held the dam or the strip, in fact the NCR held the dam and policed the strip. It was the rule of law stopping the NCR from taking NV. If it had been the legion they would most likely have just conquered New Vegas. But the NCR found them first and signed a treaty (once again teh rule of law, based on their own interpretation), providing protection of NV and Hoover (among many other details ***).

 

If you think the Legion is no longer a threat requiring NCR troops then I suggest you give that assertion further consideration.

 

 

The fact is Caesar's Legion is a civilization that lives on victories and dies from defeats

You don't realize taht the legion has suffered defeats other than hoover? In a bloody war with the NCR? If they hadn't, they would have already overrun the NCR wherever there had been conflict. I'll skip your interpenetration of teh future of the legion, as it's not really pertinent to the point your trying to make in the (game world) present, as well as your assertion that House prevented annexation as I addressed that above.

 

The fact that you need the Legion to be a minimized threat for your assertion of a police force, should be an obvious red flag in your argument. The Legion doesn't quit warring with the NCR because of the defeat at Hoover, any more than they did the first time. In fact a large portion of our mod for teh NCR ending features conflict with the Legion. They hold substantial territory in the four states region, especially AZ. They aren't closing up shop because they lost a battle, I think you have a very inaccurate view of the Legion and their determination as well as abilities.

 

 

 

The NCR has been trying to annex NV for years now, and like I said before, they wouldn't have a plan to set up a police force as soon as possible after being there for so long.

Did you mean to say they *would* have a plan?

 

 

The military doesn't like to play cops and robbers and forcing them into a role they don't like and aren't trained for would be a disaster especially if they know they're going to be there for a few years.

Once again your argument hinging on they don't like doing it, isn't an argument at all. There are many things the military doesn't like to do, but has to be done. In re: being there a few years, they'v already been doing it for 7 years.

 

 

 

than rounding up drunks and stopping fist fights, and there will be plenty of tourists looking to have a fun time that will be making the police officers lives eventful.

Which is what the MPs do right now.

 

 

Primm would take even less time since it's a part of the NCR.

If Primm was part of the NCR do you wonder why they don't have a civilian police force?

 

 

The population of NV, one in terms of size doesn't matter,

Then why are the civilian police forces in the largest population centers in teh core region. Your assertion that it's size doesn't matter caries no weight if it's just your opinion, in spite of the obvious lore contradicting you. What other civilian police forces are there in the NCR and what is their population size?

 

I could go addressing each point and burning more time. But the fact is the lore is already there, the developers wrote it this way to reflect a vision they had. It makes sense in light of borderlands that are battlegrounds between two of the west coast's mightiest armies.

[sgtKraigO]

How do you split quotes up like that? It's difficult responding to your comments otherwise.

[devinpatterson]

How do you split quotes up like that? It's difficult responding to your comments otherwise.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, I'm not going to burn any more time on the subject.

 

For quotes I can't really show you or the code will think it's a real quote, but hit the little icon that looks like a light switch in the upper right corner and you'll see quote tags.