deleted Skyrim

[scot]

I don't understand the hate for Steam.

 

I haven't had many problems aside from minor inconvenience. I rather like picking up games for a fourth of their price every once in a while.

 

*shrug* Guess I'll just go play some TF2 while you guys rage about it.

 

I don't either. Not one person that said they hated Steam actually gave a good reason as to why. Other than the inconvenience.

 

 

Well for exemple the offline mode decided to stop working for me yesterday, and if I stop having internet for some reason it´s goodbye to skyrim and new vegas, games that I bought -.- steam is usefull for people that use it´s features, I just want to pop in a disk install and play like the old days, hell I just have it for new vegas and skyrim wich are both single player games...

[Lord Garon]

I don't understand the hate for Steam.

 

I haven't had many problems aside from minor inconvenience. I rather like picking up games for a fourth of their price every once in a while.

 

*shrug* Guess I'll just go play some TF2 while you guys rage about it.

 

I don't either. Not one person that said they hated Steam actually gave a good reason as to why. Other than the inconvenience.

 

Okay, here are my opinions of Steam:

 

Steals data - Steam provides Valve user data about your game habits and software which they use to make money. I'll happily sell Valve that info.

DRM FUD - It does not require a lifelong, forced relationship and perpetually running client to validate a software installation. Not even Microsoft does this.

3rd Party - I bought a product from Bethesda/Zenimax, but Valve controls almost every aspect of the product lifecycle. Who has Seller responsibilities in the Buyer/Seller relationship? Steam TOS denies responsibility for anything, even the software actually running.

Decreased value - I cannot sell my DVD to someone else when I'm done. Not even a used game store.

Performance - downloads take a LONG time and I have cable broadband. Sometimes it takes Steam 2 or 3 times to do a download.

Misleading - Steam Offline option isn't; it still contacts Valve\Steam and updates the client AND your game even if "Do not update game" is selected. Has broken my savegames twice now. (First patch and I don't know which later one; it uploaded three patches at once when I accidentally let it get an internet connection.)

 

Steam is not DRM, it is a retail sales, advertising and marketing scam foisted upon users under the false guise of DRM. Valve\Steam has so many "users" because it is not optional; we're not users, we're prisoners. You can't opt out of data collection or upgrades, it spams advertising, and its "settings" don't do what they say they do. Steam is malware and I have to treat it as such. Steam tech support is a joke, and if your "account" has a problem, they stop your games from running (that is not DRM, my Steam "account" is completely separate from my local game installation.). Steam only purports to be DRM. I can't really talk about specific issues with that on these forums because of piracy rules. Suffice it to say that complicated client software requiring constant connections to remote servers, online stores, multiplayer game servers, community chats, and discussion forums are not required of a DRM program. Steam does not impact pirates. What share of the Skyrim market involves PC's anyways? Its a console game. Steam only impacts honest users, people who actually BUY games. Think about that and then all those Steam "features". How many of them relate to DRM or piracy? How many to game sales? I'm sick of being treated like a criminal just to run a single player game, especially when that treatment is part of an incredibly greedy on-line sales business model. All the Steam fanbois can continue to use it and sing its praise. Just wait till they start charging for user mods. "Uh, yeah, that new mod download charge is only used to cover our hardware and bandwidth costs. Yeah, yeah, its expensive for us to provide that service and we offer it to our users at a very low cost. Same for the new monthly service charge." Paranoia? There is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing stuff like that because they are a software sales business with captive customers. What other business in America has a captive, dependent, guaranteed customer base? Not many, they're called monopolies. Actually read their TOS, EULA, and privacy policies if you think I'm exaggerating. Ask yourself why you really can't opt out of most Steam "features". I want no part of Valve\Steam's "business philosophy" or their "products", nor do I wish to support them with data or information used to promote their business. But I don't have a choice if I want to play a game published by a company I DO want to support. If I don't like Wal-Mart, or Target, or whomever, I shop for the exact same product somewhere else. Not here. Not with video games. I have no choice. We have no choice. And Valve knows it; they created it and their business model depends upon it. I no longer allow my family to purchase Steamworks games after my experience with Skyrim and Valve. Sorry, Bethesda, its been a long, fun ride, but I'm sure you'll be fine without me.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Lord Garon

[Stemin]

Steals data - Steam provides Valve user data about your game habits and software which they use to make money. I'll happily sell Valve that info.

 

And aside from that one popup that comes up from time to time with gaming sales, how does that bother you?

 

DRM FUD - It does not require a lifelong, forced relationship and perpetually running client to validate a software installation. Not even Microsoft does this.

 

That would be patently false. About 5-10 years ago, Microsoft sent down an "update" that spammed notices at you saying your product wasn't a valid microsoft product and had some minor restrictions if the software determined you didn't have a valid key, even if you bought the computer with XP pre installed.

 

3rd Party - I bought a product from Bethesda/Zenimax, but Valve controls almost every aspect of the product lifecycle. Who has Seller responsibilities in the Buyer/Seller relationship? Steam TOS denies responsibility for anything, even the software actually running.

 

And certain games have specific engines that were third party, how does this change anything? For that matter if any software you put on your computer damages something, do you really have legal recourse?

 

Decreased value - I cannot sell my DVD to someone else when I'm done. Not even a used game store.

 

This has always been the legal definition anyways. You're not SUPPOSED to be able to sell software used. Besides. Isn't the game linked to your steam account? One of the main features of using Steam is you can install the game on any PC and log into your steam account and have all your save files on the new PC.

 

Performance - downloads take a LONG time and I have cable broadband. Sometimes it takes Steam 2 or 3 times to do a download.

 

This one I also have a problem with, but not unless I'm running other programs in the background and I only have 6.0mb down. Furthermore, this doesn't effect game performance, it always happens outside of the game, USUALLY when uploading your save files, which is a nice feature. And I don't care whether you have cable or not, your upload speed is usually a very small percentage of your download speed, which explains why it takes so long. You want a game that keeps track of everything, well that takes a large save file.

 

Misleading - Steam Offline option isn't; it still contacts Valve\Steam and updates the client AND your game even if "Do not update game" is selected. Has broken my savegames twice now. (First patch and I don't know which later one; it uploaded three patches at once when I accidentally let it get an internet connection.)

 

No, steam didn't break your save game files. Your mods did. And it makes perfect sense that Bethesda's top priority should be fixing THEIR game, and not worrying about your mods.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Stemin

[xlcr]

@arcanewizard, just for the sake of accuracy, if you 'quote' someone like you just quoted me previously in this thread,

in the future please quote everything a person said and not make your own edits to what they said to make your point or

make someone look foolish.

 

This is what you didn't include when you quoted me:

I'm not defending Bethesda and these comments are purely my opinion, its just the way their games sometimes are, i've accepted it and prepare for issues.

They do try to patch afterwards, if they waited to get a game like Skyrim completely fixed it would probably not have been released for another year or more.

Many fortunate gamers report having few issues and are entertained.

Just have to be careful (and lucky) completing quests, or replaying them, avoid open explorable world glitches, relax and don't sweat the small stuff.

 

and this is what you said:

bethesda makes massive open worlds, i don't know of any game company that makes games as big as bethesda games,but saying they have a reputation for releasing games too early...their games are so big that you have to release the game at some point, you can't work on it forever and never release it, i think how they do it is fine. they release their games near the end of the year, and they work on em and patch problems afterword, i had skyrim the day it came out and it played fine. other than some quest bugs but the gameplay was fine. skyrim wasn't released too early and FO3 played fine also when it came out...you can't hold the game back forever ,they do need to sell their games at some point. and as it is, they only release a game every 2 or 3 years.

 

wtf? anyway, looks like we agree lol. thanks, peace.

[breakwind]

The impresion is that steam stops pirates and it does not. A padlock will actually deter theft. And Steam does not deter piracy. Anyhow there are plenty of other gaming companies that do not require steam and do not have any greater or less problems regarding piracy.

 

Padlocks deter thieves do they? You must have an insulated life. As I already posted padlocks only keep honest people out, thieves can easily overcome them. Steam and DRM are the digital equivalent of a padlock, honest people abide by them, pirates look to bypass them. It's a price we pay because some in our society are thieves, just like how supermarkets re-coup their shoplifting loses by passing the costs on to paying customers, we have to download Steam

[Glhadiator]

I don't understand the hate for Steam.

 

I haven't had many problems aside from minor inconvenience. I rather like picking up games for a fourth of their price every once in a while.

 

*shrug* Guess I'll just go play some TF2 while you guys rage about it.

 

I don't either. Not one person that said they hated Steam actually gave a good reason as to why. Other than the inconvenience.

 

Okay, here are my opinions of Steam:

 

Steals data - Steam provides Valve user data about your game habits and software which they use to make money. I'll happily sell Valve that info.

DRM FUD - It does not require a lifelong, forced relationship and perpetually running client to validate a software installation. Not even Microsoft does this.

3rd Party - I bought a product from Bethesda/Zenimax, but Valve controls almost every aspect of the product lifecycle. Who has Seller responsibilities in the Buyer/Seller relationship? Steam TOS denies responsibility for anything, even the software actually running.

Decreased value - I cannot sell my DVD to someone else when I'm done. Not even a used game store.

Performance - downloads take a LONG time and I have cable broadband. Sometimes it takes Steam 2 or 3 times to do a download.

Misleading - Steam Offline option isn't; it still contacts Valve\Steam and updates the client AND your game even if "Do not update game" is selected. Has broken my savegames twice now. (First patch and I don't know which later one; it uploaded three patches at once when I accidentally let it get an internet connection.)

 

Steam is not DRM, it is a retail sales, advertising and marketing scam foisted upon users under the false guise of DRM. Valve\Steam has so many "users" because it is not optional; we're not users, we're prisoners. You can't opt out of data collection or upgrades, it spams advertising, and its "settings" don't do what they say they do. Steam is malware and I have to treat it as such. Steam tech support is a joke, and if your "account" has a problem, they stop your games from running (that is not DRM, its retail blackmail.). Steam only purports to be DRM. I can't really talk about specific issues with that on these forums because of piracy rules. Suffice it to say that complicated client software requiring constant connections to remote servers, online stores, multiplayer game servers, community chats, and discussion forums are not required of a DRM program. Steam does not impact pirates. What share of the Skyrim market involves PC's anyways? Its a console game. Steam only impacts honest users, people who actually BUY games. Think about that and then all those Steam "features". How many of them relate to DRM or piracy? How many to game sales? I'm sick of being treated like a criminal just to run a single player game, especially when that treatment is part of an incredibly greedy on-line sales business model. All the Steam fanbois can continue to use it and sing its praise. Just wait till they start charging for user mods. "Uh, yeah, that new mod download charge is only used to cover our hardware and bandwidth costs. Yeah, yeah, its expensive for us to provide that service and we offer it to our users at a very low cost. Same for the new monthly service charge." Paranoia? There is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing stuff like that because they are a software sales business with captive customers. What other business in America has a captive, dependent, guaranteed customer base? Not many, they're called monopolies. Actually read their TOS, EULA, and privacy policies if you think I'm exaggerating. Ask yourself why you really can't opt out of most Steam "features". I want no part of Valve\Steam's "business philosophy" or their "products", nor do I wish to support them with data or information used to promote their business. But I don't have a choice if I want to play a game published by a company I DO want to support. If I don't like Wal-Mart, or Target, or whomever, I shop for the exact same product somewhere else. Not here. Not with video games. I have no choice. We have no choice. And Valve knows it; they created it and their business model depends upon it. I no longer allow my family to purchase Steamworks games after my experience with Skyrim and Valve. Sorry, Bethesda, its been a long, fun ride, but I'm sure you'll be fine without me.

 

 

:sweat: Whew! I couldn't agree with you more...However...One cannot be considered a prisoner if you walk in freely and the door is always open. I love Skyrim and if it means putting up with Steam then so be it. The OP made the choice to no longer play Skyrim or deal with Steam. Good for him. But getting on this forum and ranting about it after you have made the decision to no longer play the game is pointless!

 

 

I knew I would deal with Steam when I bought the game

 

I knew I wouldn't be able to re-sell the game

 

I knew there would be bugs in the game

 

I knew what I was buying

 

I knew that Steam collects data

 

 

If you make the choice to no longer shop at Walmart and go there to stand in front of it and yell at me how much you dislike the store you are performing a futile act! I support your right to choose but if you have a legitimate complaint with Bethesda or Steam shouldn't you direct it at them?

 

 

I love Skyrim. :wub: I anxiously await the next open world title that is released by Bethesda no matter how they release it.

[stimresp]

This week the EU court of justice ruled against Oracle in a case that is relevant for Steam users who want to re-sell their games:

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

 

Basically it says that downloaded software licences may be re-sold by the buyer.

 

Personally I find Steam to be a great idea, but poorly implemented and run by incompetents. However, I buy games from Steam fully aware of these issues, and I take steps to minimize their impact.

[Lord Garon]

I should have known better. Actually, I do, but my distaste for some things gets the better of me at times.

 

@Stemin: (I don't want to quote the entire preceding post, it just makes a mess of the forum.)

 

Steam continually sends user data and file info to its servers when you are online. I don't want to support Valve. It doesn't matter why, its my choice.

I was referring to installing Microsoft software (Visual C++, etc.) which requires a one-time online validation to run forever.

I was asking about Seller responsibilities. Even licensed software has to perform "substantially" as advertised. Steam can break that, according to their TOS.

You can sell physical media. Google it. And I have a single game machine.

I had no mods at the time and only 1 now. I always wait on upgrades for the reviews to come in. The point is, I can't wait with Steam if a client update is out.

 

I'm going to head this off and say that the first line of my original post said, "opinions". Take them, or leave them. I don't really care. It was a rant, but an honest one. My opinions are based upon my experiences and I am not going to defend or justify them further.

 

Happy 4th of July to all.

[dereko]

lol, No I don't have an insulated life as a matter of fact I've worked in the security industry for 8 years. And you just argued against yourself in your first post you first stated that you still have to use a padlock, then in your second post you state that padlocks don't deter anyone. Fact is there are dishonest people that do not have the tools at the moment to break the lock or do not want to risk making noise or taking the time if there is a padlock. Anyhow we are arguing for nothing as a padlock on a shed and Software piracy are very different things.

 

Anyhow Lord Garon Well said.

[Guss]

Steam:

 

great deal on games at times.

 

no need for cds and if you lose the cd or breaks etc have to go spend another $30-60

" just buy the game once and you can have on any computer any time. 6 years later still have it easy to find. "

 

easy way to talk to friends, join MP games together and able to chat ingame without other players knowing what you are doing.

 

steam takes your data on games and etc omg, who cares. look at Facebook and other sites, people can find everything about you so fast from there. and there is pretty much not a time when you are using the internet and someone not getting your info, its a 24/7 365day thing. :tongue:

 

If you dont like steam. then dont like it, deleting a game because of this or that. who cares you love it play it. if you dont like it then dont play it, do something else and save your bsing for something else. :thumbsup: