Stemin Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Astrid and Arnbjorn didn't follow the Five Tenets and repeatedly broke them, they had no reason to expect to be protected by them (abandoning them alone may have been reason enough for them to be eliminated from the Dark Brotherhood). Astrid was the leader of a Sanctuary, not a member of the Black Hand (only the Black Hand are true leaders of the Dark Brotherhood and aren't bound by the Five Tenets). Whether Cicero violated one of the Five Tenets when he attacked Arnbjorn, or whether he carried out his obligations to them (Arnbjorn insulted the Night Mother and so Cicero tried to show him the wrath of Sithis), is open to interpretation. Cicero also didn't kill Arnbjorn or Veezara, though he may have if he'd been allowed to. He wounded them, Tenet Five specifies killing. It's a technicality sure, but you put a bunch of killers under one roof and sometimes people are goona get stabbed (especially when they keep insulting, i.e. picking fights, with other people), that should really be pretty obvious. I don't recall anywhere in the game where Astrid claimed to follow the 5 tenets. In fact, the very opposite. The one concession she made was to allow Cicero and the Night Mother into the sanctuary. So if you don't claim to follow the 5 tenets then you're right, there's no reason she expected them to be enforced on her behalf, but Cicero is the one who claimed the old ways, and regardless, he broke them. Astrid never claimed to follow the old ways. I've yet to see anyone come up with anything to dispute the fact that the sanctuary was doing just fine until Cicero appeared with his insane quest to restore a now dead set of beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Astrid and Arnbjorn didn't follow the Five Tenets and repeatedly broke them, they had no reason to expect to be protected by them (abandoning them alone may have been reason enough for them to be eliminated from the Dark Brotherhood). Astrid was the leader of a Sanctuary, not a member of the Black Hand (only the Black Hand are true leaders of the Dark Brotherhood and aren't bound by the Five Tenets). Whether Cicero violated one of the Five Tenets when he attacked Arnbjorn, or whether he carried out his obligations to them (Arnbjorn insulted the Night Mother and so Cicero tried to show him the wrath of Sithis), is open to interpretation. Cicero also didn't kill Arnbjorn or Veezara, though he may have if he'd been allowed to. He wounded them, Tenet Five specifies killing. It's a technicality sure, but you put a bunch of killers under one roof and sometimes people are goona get stabbed (especially when they keep insulting, i.e. picking fights, with other people), that should really be pretty obvious. I don't recall anywhere in the game where Astrid claimed to follow the 5 tenets. In fact, the very opposite. The one concession she made was to allow Cicero and the Night Mother into the sanctuary. So if you don't claim to follow the 5 tenets then you're right, there's no reason she expected them to be enforced on her behalf, but Cicero is the one who claimed the old ways, and regardless, he broke them. Astrid never claimed to follow the old ways. I've yet to see anyone come up with anything to dispute the fact that the sanctuary was doing just fine until Cicero appeared with his insane quest to restore a now dead set of beliefs. Firstly in line with the bold letters, Cicero did indeed break the Tenets, but then consider the words of Lucien Lachance: The Five Tenets are the laws that guide and protect us. But, sometimes, even they must be broken to protect the sanctity of our beliefs-Lucien Lachance, The Purification Even though traditionally, a Purification would have required the authorisation of the Black Hand, it is understandable (indeed commendable) that Cicero, as the last bastion of the Dark Brotherhood's faith, took such drastic action so as to preserve the true Creed of the Brotherhood. Furthermore, Astrid herself, on her deathbed, had her own revelation: The Night Mother was right. The old ways... they guided the Dark Brotherhood for centuries. -Astrid, Death Incarnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClonePatrol Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I don't recall anywhere in the game where Astrid claimed to follow the 5 tenets. In fact, the very opposite. The one concession she made was to allow Cicero and the Night Mother into the sanctuary. So if you don't claim to follow the 5 tenets then you're right, there's no reason she expected them to be enforced on her behalf, but Cicero is the one who claimed the old ways, and regardless, he broke them. Astrid never claimed to follow the old ways. Astrid not only didn't claim to follow the old ways, she abandoned and ridiculed them. Whether or not Cicero can break the Five Tenets by attacking her or Arnborn is dependent on whether she can be considered a legitimate member of the Dark Brotherhood. In many ways she wasn't, she was the de facto leader of that Sanctuary, but only because nobody of higher standing was around. She abandoned the Five Tenets before there was even somebody to challenge her position as the leader of the Sanctuary, which only opens up to her the new options of bad mouthing the Night Mother and screwing over her fellow members (betraying the DB as a whole, stealing from fellow members, or killing somebody without first revoking their membership). Not everyone in the Sanctuary was even bothered by the prospect of bringing back the Five Tenets, Gabriella and Festus seemed quite happy with the potential return to the old ways, and everyone else just made clear that they were to loyal to Astrid because she'd been there for them in the past. I've yet to see anyone come up with anything to dispute the fact that the sanctuary was doing just fine until Cicero appeared with his insane quest to restore a now dead set of beliefs. ⇩ This ⇩ The leader of the Dark Brotherhood? You mean Astrid? Dead? And this is no jest? Ha! This is a good stroke of fortune. Long have I watched the Dark Brotherhood's movements... waiting for the time to strike. That time is now! My agents have recently acquired the passphrase to their Sanctuary. It is, "Silence, my brother." Every assassin in that hole must be put down! You, my friend. You've slain their leader. This honor should be yours. Do this, and you will be rewarded most handsomely! She allowed the Sanctuary to be compromised by the Penitus Oculatus. An attack was forthcoming, whether the Dragonborn was involved or not. Cicero also wasn't on an insane quest to restore a dead set of beliefs, he was the Keeper of the Night Mother, who is a real person who continues to influence Nirn through the conduit that are her mortal remains and the true leader of the Dark Brotherhood. The Night Mother is the Chosen of the God Sithis, one of the two primordial creator deities of all Mundus. The beliefs can't really die because the God can't die, if he wants them around the will be and they stay that way if the Dragonborn gets involved or not. If you summon Lucien back from the Void where Sithis resides, he will guide you through the quest line based on the will of Sithis. And he tells you not to kill Cicero. All Tamrielic religions begin the same. Man or Mer, things begin with the dualism of Anu and His Other. These twin forces go by many names: Anu-Padomay, Aniel-Sithis, Ak-El, Satak-Akel, Is-Is Not. Anuiel is the Everlasting Ineffable Light, Sithis is the Corrupting Inexpressible Action. In the middle is the Gray Maybe ('Nirn' in the Ehlnofex). In most cultures, Anuiel is honored for his part of the interplay that creates the world, but Sithis is held in highest esteem because he's the one that causes the reaction. Sithis is thus the Original Creator, an entity who intrinsically causes change without design. Even the hist acknowledge this being. Anuiel is also perceived of as Order, opposed to the Sithis-Chaos. Perhaps it is easier for mortals to envision change than perfect stasis, for often Anuiel is relegated to the mythic background of Sithis' fancies. In Yokudan folk-tales, which are among the most vivid in the world, Satak is only referred to a handful of times, as "the Hum"; he is a force so prevalent as to be not really there at all. In any case, from these two beings spring the et'Ada, or Original Spirits. To humans these et'Ada are the Gods and Demons; to the Aldmer, the Aedra/Daedra, or the 'Ancestors'. All of the Tamrielic pantheons fill their rosters from these et'Ada, though divine membership often differs from culture to culture. Like Anu and Padomay, though, every one of these pantheons contains the archetypes of the Dragon God and the Missing God. Edited October 17, 2012 by ClonePatrol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 This is exactly why you can't have this argument with people who have played the previous games. They don't seem to understand that things like the Night Mother and Lucien are meaningless to people who don't know who they are or believe in them, which is exactly where Astrid was coming from. Just another example of people following faith over logic. :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClonePatrol Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) This is exactly why you can't have this argument with people who have played the previous games. They don't seem to understand that things like the Night Mother and Lucien are meaningless to people who don't know who they are or believe in them, which is exactly where Astrid was coming from. Just another example of people following faith over logic. :wallbash: Astrid was the one who taught the Dragonborn how to summon Lucien from the Void. The Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary contains several books on the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood, including a prominently displayed copy of the book Sithis in the same room where Astrid spends most of her time. Are you making the argument that she had no idea what she was doing? That she thought the Gods weren't actually real? That Sithis and the Night Mother wouldn't take issue with what she was doing? There is a big stained glass representation of the God Sithis in the main room of the Sanctuary. Logic would dictate that you don't turn away from a God and the beliefs of his followers in what is effectively that Gods temple. People on Nirn don't need faith to know the Gods are real, just in choosing which ones to follow. The Gods are definitely real, there is no doubt about that. A person with enough power can literally conjure up an incarnation of a God, Gods are known to give guidance and grant magical power to certain favored followers; their influence is felt by the people every day and it's not in the slightest bit a secret. If you consider faith to be opposed to logic/reason, then the illogical/unreasonable thing to do is to behave as if a God doesn't exist in a world in which they clearly do. Even if like the Dwemer, you considered the Gods to be entities with power that could be obtained by others, they are still a great many magnitudes of power above any mortals and are not something to trifle with. Astrid most certainly knew who the Night Mother and Sithis were, whether she placed her faith in them or not. She may not have known who Lucien was in life, but she most certainly knew what he was in death and where he came from. Edited October 19, 2012 by ClonePatrol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formalrevya Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 This is exactly why you can't have this argument with people who have played the previous games. They don't seem to understand that things like the Night Mother and Lucien are meaningless to people who don't know who they are or believe in them, which is exactly where Astrid was coming from. Just another example of people following faith over logic. :wallbash: Astrid was the one who taught the Dragonborn how to summon Lucien from the Void. The Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary contains several books on the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood, including a prominently displayed copy of the book Sithis in the same room where Astrid spends most of her time. Are you making the argument that she had no idea what she was doing? That she thought the Gods weren't actually real? That Sithis and the Night Mother wouldn't take issue with what she was doing? There is a big stained glass representation of the God Sithis in the main room of the Sanctuary. Logic would dictate that you don't turn away from a God and the beliefs of his followers in what is effectively that Gods temple. People on Nirn don't need faith to know the Gods are real, just in choosing which ones to follow. The Gods are definitely real, there is no doubt about that. A person with enough power can literally conjure up an incarnation of a God, Gods are known to give guidance and grant magical power to certain favored followers; their influence is felt by the people every day and it's not in the slightest bit a secret. If you consider faith to be opposed to logic/reason, then the illogical/unreasonable thing to do is to behave as if a God doesn't exist in a world in which they clearly do. Even if like the Dwemer, you considered the Gods to be entities with power that could be obtained by others, they are still a great many magnitudes of power above any mortals and are not something to trifle with. Astrid most certainly knew who the Night Mother and Sithis were, whether she placed her faith in them or not. She may not have known who Lucien was in life, but she most certainly knew what he was in death and where he came from. and someone comes along and says what I'm thinking exactly. Everything in tamriel absolutely without a shadow of a doubt points to there being beings of a higher power in their universe, that regularly push their influence into the mortal plane. even if you haven't played any other game but Skyrim, they're very present. You even visit one of the potential afterlife realms for a God's follower in your pursuit of the main quest. To not want to follow them anymore is one thing. But to say that they don't exist just because you haven't personally seen their works in your own life, when there are plenty of people alive in the timeline who can absolutely prove that they do exist, is utter folly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I feel Stemin was more talking about how the people who have played previous TES games (specifically, Oblivion) generally oppose Astrid (or is assuming so), and that as such, old TES fans virtually reject Astrid's viewpoint. We may be polar opposites on this topic, but I got your back Stemin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I feel Stemin was more talking about how the people who have played previous TES games (specifically, Oblivion) generally oppose Astrid (or is assuming so), and that as such, old TES fans virtually reject Astrid's viewpoint. We may be polar opposites on this topic, but I got your back Stemin. Yes, thank you. It's the loyalty to a fictional idea that irritates me. Why shouldn't I side with Astrid. Lets review... Astrid kidnapped me... she could have killed me, but she gave me an out. At which point I chose to follow her. She welcomed me into her family, let me introduce myself to everyone and gave me work and opportunities for training. I was well rewarded after every mission and she supported me (at least outwardly) after every mission, rewarding me over and over again. When her husband was threatened she sent me to go after him without question, and only at the end was it revealed that she traded me for the assured safety of the rest of the family. With zero details. I could believe what Commander Maro said, that she approached him, (although actually all he says is a member of the DB contacted him) but I'm smart enough to know that Astrid would never have given up the password to the DB door for any reason. The fact that he had it already leads me to believe it was more of a blackmail situation than anything else. Now... Lets take a look at Cicero. He breaks down on the road and your first impression is he's a bit different (the jester's outfit) and a bit nuts (the antics). I helped him get his wagon repaired, and later find that he murdered Loreus anyways. He shows up at the Sanctuary apparently invited by Astrid, since she knew about it, acting as crazy as ever. He holds private conversations with the Night Mother which he keeps from everyone else (only talks to her when they're alone). Then I find out I'm the Listener and he apparently expects Astrid to just give up her position and defer to me. Without any provocation on my part, he attacks Veezara, and then it's revealed that his "religion" has been dying all along and that he's already prepped a sanctuary in DB because he has issues with Astrid's family. Which he then flees to after the attack, at which point he wants me to lie to Astrid who at this point I have no reason to believe has been nothing but helpful to me. So aside from old loyalties, who in their right mind would choose Cicero based on logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Astrid was the one who taught the Dragonborn how to summon Lucien from the Void. The Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary contains several books on the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood, including a prominently displayed copy of the book Sithis in the same room where Astrid spends most of her time. Are you making the argument that she had no idea what she was doing? That she thought the Gods weren't actually real? That Sithis and the Night Mother wouldn't take issue with what she was doing? There is a big stained glass representation of the God Sithis in the main room of the Sanctuary. Logic would dictate that you don't turn away from a God and the beliefs of his followers in what is effectively that Gods temple. People on Nirn don't need faith to know the Gods are real, just in choosing which ones to follow. The Gods are definitely real, there is no doubt about that. A person with enough power can literally conjure up an incarnation of a God, Gods are known to give guidance and grant magical power to certain favored followers; their influence is felt by the people every day and it's not in the slightest bit a secret. If you consider faith to be opposed to logic/reason, then the illogical/unreasonable thing to do is to behave as if a God doesn't exist in a world in which they clearly do. Even if like the Dwemer, you considered the Gods to be entities with power that could be obtained by others, they are still a great many magnitudes of power above any mortals and are not something to trifle with. Astrid most certainly knew who the Night Mother and Sithis were, whether she placed her faith in them or not. She may not have known who Lucien was in life, but she most certainly knew what he was in death and where he came from. Since you chose to take the discussion in that direction I'll humor you. I'd like to point out that all of that is conjecture. As far as I know we're not privy as to how Astrid got her position, but we do know that the DB is dying out everywhere. Maybe Astrid did believe at one point and when everything started crumbling around her, she lost faith. How should we know this? It's a very simple matter of putting yourself in someone else's shoes. But empathy is a dying characteristic. Regardless, it doesn't matter if _I_ know that the Gods in Nirn are real, the fact is, the majority of the people in Skyrim are in doubt. There's a whole civil war over the issue of Talos being a god despite the fact that something is obviously blessing me when I visit a shrine. Lucien, the Sithis tome, the stained glass window... none of these things are proof of anything. We know Lucien as a magically summoned guardian, but that doesn't mean Astrid doesn't see him as a magical construct. We also have zero evidence that Astrid taught us the spell. All we know is she gave us the spell. Since most magic in Skyrim is learned from tomes, it's more logical to assume she gave you a spell book or something. It's even possible Festus confirmed who he was given that he's the oldest magic user in the DB that we know of, but he's also old and in the way of old people makes odd comments and its possible Astrid just plain didn't believe him. That's the problem with faith. There's no proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) I do kinda get your point. Putting Cicero aside for the time being, I never really liked the fact that, in both Oblivion and Skyrim, joining the Dark Brotherhood made your character instantly reverently fanatical to the Night Mother and Sithis. You could even give a little lip to Lucien with such comments, as "Explain yourself. Now." (when you first meet) and "So you got a plan then?" (the least remorseful answer right after you find out that you wiped the floor with the previous Listener), but the only comments you could give to the Night Mother were those of reverence, astonishment, or say nothing (except for maybe "Finally, the authority I deserve!" at the end, but that's more celebration than snark). In which case, she called you a stoic. A stoic!? I don't want to be a stoic. In terms of Greek philosophical thought, I'd prefer to be a cynic. It would be a delicious irony to have the Listener be the most loyal but the least reverent. Edited October 20, 2012 by MidbossVyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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