Cicero - Did you kill him or let him live?

[Jitansgate]

I killed Cicero but I felt Bad after Killing Him but after Killing Adolf Ulfric Hitler I felt better.

[MidbossVyers]

I killed Cicero but I felt Bad after Killing Him but after Killing Adolf Ulfric Hitler I felt better.

Really? Even here? Seriously, ULFRIC IS NOT HITLER. At most, he is a white southerner, and even that's stretching it. Sure, Dunmer live in the Windhelm slums, but at least they are living there (seriously, where else is Skyrim can you find so many Dunmer living in 1 place), and they live there untaxed, but this is getting off topic.

[Jitansgate]

I killed Cicero but I felt Bad after Killing Him but after Killing Adolf Ulfric Hitler I felt better.

Really? Even here? Seriously, ULFRIC IS NOT HITLER. At most, he is a white southerner, and even that's stretching it. Sure, Dunmer live in the Windhelm slums, but at least they are living there (seriously, where else is Skyrim can you find so many Dunmer living in 1 place), and they live there untaxed, but this is getting off topic.

 

You Mad Bro?

[ClonePatrol]

 

Yes, thank you. It's the loyalty to a fictional idea that irritates me.

 

Why shouldn't I side with Astrid.

 

Lets review... Astrid kidnapped me... she could have killed me, but she gave me an out. At which point I chose to follow her. She welcomed me into her family, let me introduce myself to everyone and gave me work and opportunities for training. I was well rewarded after every mission and she supported me (at least outwardly) after every mission, rewarding me over and over again. When her husband was threatened she sent me to go after him without question, and only at the end was it revealed that she traded me for the assured safety of the rest of the family. With zero details. I could believe what Commander Maro said, that she approached him, (although actually all he says is a member of the DB contacted him) but I'm smart enough to know that Astrid would never have given up the password to the DB door for any reason. The fact that he had it already leads me to believe it was more of a blackmail situation than anything else.

Astrid kidnapped you but gave you an out so no damage done? If someone kidnapped you IRL and told you that you could only leave if you killed someone for them you'd be fine with that then? It always bothered me the way Astrid handled that situation, because she if she had just approached the Dragonborn to extend an invitation he wouldn't have any reason to be pissed at her (aside from her maybe sending assassins after them previously, but you know, business is business and she had no reason not to at the time) and it'd have been far safer for her, though admittedly less dramatic. The debt she claimed the Dragonborn owed her wasn't even a legitimate debt because while Aventis Arentino was trying to summon the Dark Brotherhood (openly and for a long enough amount of time that every inn keeper in Skyrim knows about it) she never actually formed a contract with him, the Dragonborn got to the Arentino boy first and killed Grelod without necessarily ever making any formal arrangements with him and only makes less than a hundred gold from it (personally, I've usually approached it in a more, "let's see what all this is about" manner).

 

You can't steal something from somebody before they have it. If somebody is going to hire a contractor to do some work they probably have an idea who they want to do it in mind and may try and get in touch with them first, but until an arrangement is made for that work to be done there's nothing unusual about a different contractor taking on the job, especially if the originally intended contractor can't actually be reached in a timely manner. This is partly why the Night Mother is so important to the Dark Brotherhood, she magically hears the Black Sacrament so that it can be performed in secrecy (seriously, who but her was going to hear about Motierre in as isolated a place as Volunruud?) and she informs her Listener, who instructs a Speaker to arrange a contract, who then sends a Dark Brotherhood assassin to carry it out.

 

Aside from the fact that it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense that Astrid can kidnap the Dragonborn from literally anywhere in Skyrim (go to bed in Jorrvaskr in the middle of the day, apparently Astrid can just walk right past some of the most skilled warriors around and walk right out lugging an unconscious body) and transport him to the middle of Hjaalmarch without anyone intervening, even an evil character should be incredibly pissed off about all that. The only reason I've ever seen not to kill her for that, is because she happens to be with the Dark Brotherhood and it's a business opportunity for the Dragonborn. It's always seemed to me that she is the one being spared death at that point, not the other way around. But really, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (same as with the Thieves' Guild questline involving the Dragonborn getting poisoned by Karliah's arrows, even if they've taken the simple steps to have 100% immunity from poison, Mercer does mention ahead of time that she uses poisoned arrows).

 

Astrid does sort-of admit to being responsible for what happened with Maro on her death bed though, when she admits that she did what she did because she just wanted things to go back to the way they were before the Dragonborn as Listener, Cicero, and the Night Mother (who by Dark Brotherhood tradition would all out rank her) showed up. Astrid didn't so much support the Dragonborn as use him. She saw them as a subordinate, a skilled killer who at the abandoned shack killed when she asked them to do so. The pay she offers for the missions is also usually pretty mediocre compared to the coin made off the loot that the Dragonborn can pick up (which is pretty standard fare). It's also unlikely that Astrid had known Maro knew the pass-phrase to the Sanctuary, there'd have been very little reason for him to tell her unless he was trying to use it to get the identity of the person who put out the contract, which isn't what he did at all, and if he had then Astrid would still have known better than to continue using the place (because if she had known the place was compromised she'd have known it wouldn't be safe to go back to regardless of the deal struck with Maro).

 

Now... Lets take a look at Cicero.

 

He breaks down on the road and your first impression is he's a bit different (the jester's outfit) and a bit nuts (the antics). I helped him get his wagon repaired, and later find that he murdered Loreus anyways. He shows up at the Sanctuary apparently invited by Astrid, since she knew about it, acting as crazy as ever. He holds private conversations with the Night Mother which he keeps from everyone else (only talks to her when they're alone). Then I find out I'm the Listener and he apparently expects Astrid to just give up her position and defer to me. Without any provocation on my part, he attacks Veezara, and then it's revealed that his "religion" has been dying all along and that he's already prepped a sanctuary in DB because he has issues with Astrid's family. Which he then flees to after the attack, at which point he wants me to lie to Astrid who at this point I have no reason to believe has been nothing but helpful to me.

 

So aside from old loyalties, who in their right mind would choose Cicero based on logic?

 

I'm pretty sure that Cicero only kills Loreius and his wife if you turn him in to the guard for them, otherwise they get left alone. Cicero acting like a jester didn't, and doesn't really imply that he's nuts. He is a bit, but not completely. A jester is a type of performer, and it's not strange for people who perform for a living to stay in character whenever they are in public. It's not all that weird for him to talk to the Night Mother either, even if she doesn't talk back she can hear him. The guy is frustrated and venting, it's a perfectly normal behavior, don't tell me you've never closed the door to a room and ranted about things you wouldn't want others to hear. Would it be any stranger if he was talking to a cat or a dog? Lots of people do that. I'd call it less strange even, because while it may seem odd because she's "dead", death in the Elder Scrolls universe isn't nearly the same sort of thing as in this one. Cicero also didn't just attack Veezara, he attacked Arbjorn for disrespecting the Night Mother (breaking the Five Tenets, and remember Cicero followed "the old ways" and that was a serious taboo, aside from being an obvious way to instigate a fight with him), and Veezara got hurt when he involved himself in the fight. It's also perfectly legitimate for him to expect Astrid to defer to you somewhat, since the Night Mother is by right as the Chosen of Sithis and by tradition, the true leader of the Dark Brotherhood and aside from her the Listener is traditionally the highest ranking member. It would also have been a legitimate request for the Dragonborn, even as Listener, to defer to her until they've become more experienced in the ways of the Dark Brotherhood. There is a lot they never even get the opportunity to learn before she betrays them, and she would have been an obvious choice for the Dragonborn to induct into the Black Hand, fully legitimizing her as a leader of the Dark Brotherhood as it comes back to power and not just that one Sanctuary.

 

Cicero also didn't really prep the Dawnstar Sanctuary, as the Night Mother's Keeper he simply knew the pass-phrase to it (and likely all the others), and how to activate and control it's defences. He does have those "binding tomes" full of all sorts of secret Dark Brotherhood lore doesn't he? Like the phrase that lets him know when a real Listener has been chosen? If you read his journals it is mentioned that he's already killed one person for pretending to be the Listener, and he knew they were pretending because they didn't know the phrase that only he knew.

 

Astrid was being helpful to herself, not necessarily to the Dragonborn. Just because somebodies interests coincide with yours for a while doesn't mean they are trustworthy or a good ally. As I've said before, Astrid's abandoning of the Five Tenets (which weren't limiting to her) and her "my word is law" mentality should have made her betrayal completely expected (not to say it was inevitable, just expected).

 

Since you chose to take the discussion in that direction I'll humor you. I'd like to point out that all of that is conjecture. As far as I know we're not privy as to how Astrid got her position, but we do know that the DB is dying out everywhere. Maybe Astrid did believe at one point and when everything started crumbling around her, she lost faith. How should we know this? It's a very simple matter of putting yourself in someone else's shoes. But empathy is a dying characteristic.

 

Regardless, it doesn't matter if _I_ know that the Gods in Nirn are real, the fact is, the majority of the people in Skyrim are in doubt. There's a whole civil war over the issue of Talos being a god despite the fact that something is obviously blessing me when I visit a shrine.

 

It's true, we don't know exactly how Astrid got her position, but it can be assumed to a certain degree. There are five members of the Black Hand (aside from the Silencers that most members aren't even aware of) there were definitely more than five Sanctuaries in Tamriel, meaning the leader of a Sanctuary is likely just the most senior member of that Sanctuary, or the member of that Sanctuary recognized as the most capable leader (though she may have been appointed to the position by one of the late members of the Black Hand). Their authority would begin and end at that Sanctuary as they manage it for the actual leaders of the Dark Brotherhood. It can be assumed "the old ways" were followed when Astrid first joined if she was the one to abandon them, and she likely believed in them to some degree at one point. There is indication in Cicero's journals that the Black Hand was still operating and the Sanctuaries were in communication with each other until the one where Cicero had resided in previously fell. I'm not judging Astrid harshly because she doesn't have faith in the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood anymore, I can even sympathize with her reasons for losing faith. Astrid was simply a dangerous individual, she was acting foremost for her best interest, and she did betray the Dark Brotherhood and she should have known full well the potential consequences of those actions. She stepped up and kept her Sanctuary operating as best she could in the absence of a Listener, and that's admirable, but that doesn't excuse her other actions. Ignoring Cicero claims to authority is one thing, but once the Night Mother named a Listener, by refusing to acknowledge and accept what that means she was acting against the best interests of the Dark Brotherhood.

 

The people of Skyrim also aren't in doubt about whether or not the Gods are real, the conflict in Skyrim and the banning of the worship of Talos is about the Apotheosis of the mortal Tiber Septim, founder of the Septim Dynasty into a God. The Thalmor, elven supremacists that they are, refuse to acknowledge that a human could become a God, even though he most certainly did. This is if you can even consider Tiber Septim to have been a mortal that is, because he was a Dragonborn. Dragonborn, being those gifted with the body of a mortal and the soul of a dragon as granted to them by the God Akatosh, are something that should be considered a large threat to the ideals of the Thalmor. Akatosh is also known as Auri-El and worshiped as the primary God of the elves. That pretty much all known Dragonborn (aside from perhaps, the "Last Dragonborn" the PC in Skyrim) have been humans, this calls in to question whether or not they really are superior to men as even their "patron deity", the one they hold in highest esteem, seems to favor the races of men over them.

 

Nobody has called into question the existence any of the Aedric Eight Divines or Padomaic Daedric Princes (except maybe Malacath the God of the Orcs once called Trinimac, and like Meridia is said to have been an Aedra long ago). The conflict, as described by many who support the Empire, is about whether the banning of Talos worship warrants seceding from the Empire. Many Imperial supporters are indicated in game to actually be Talos worshipers, with their support of the Empire having a lot to do with knowing that remaining united in the face of the Thalmor threat is of the utmost importance. It's not only likely, but pretty much a certainty that once (if) the Thalmor have been (are) defeated that the free worship of Talos will once again be allowed in the Empire. Tullius actually indicates in game that he believes another war is forthcoming, and the Thalmor don't actually do anything to discourage that idea (quite the opposite, really). The Thalmor habitually refer to the Great War as the First War, and since there hasn't been a Second War yet that should make their intentions incredibly obvious. In the face of a genocidal enemy like the Thalmor unity among the races of man is arguably the most important thing. Unfortunately for humans though, the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion can wait a lot longer building up their power to resume war without their people forgetting what the situation really is. Altmer can live a thousand years, their leaders could spend two hundred years preparing for the next war, by which point multiple generations of humans who never lived during the first war could have died of old age.

 

Lucien, the Sithis tome, the stained glass window... none of these things are proof of anything. We know Lucien as a magically summoned guardian, but that doesn't mean Astrid doesn't see him as a magical construct. We also have zero evidence that Astrid taught us the spell. All we know is she gave us the spell. Since most magic in Skyrim is learned from tomes, it's more logical to assume she gave you a spell book or something. It's even possible Festus confirmed who he was given that he's the oldest magic user in the DB that we know of, but he's also old and in the way of old people makes odd comments and its possible Astrid just plain didn't believe him. That's the problem with faith. There's no proof.

 

The Sithis tome and the stained glass window are indicators that even under Astrids rule the Sanctuary is still essentially a temple to the God Sithis. As for Lucien, if you read the in-game books there's several descriptions of how magic works in the game world. To summon something forth the player just has to push a button, the character has to reach out to the place where that entity resides and needs to have a pretty good idea what they are trying to do. Even if Astrid herself didn't know how to summon Lucien from the Void, she knew how to summon Shadowmere from there. All magic requires lots of training and a detailed understanding of what is trying to be done, the only exception being the Dragonborn's instinctual ability to use Thu'um which wouldn't be as easy as it is for the player without dragons around for them to kill and "absorb their understanding" along with their soul.

 

None of this is about faith, the only thing to do with faith in a world where Gods are obvious is in choosing which ones to follow. There's loads and loads of proof and lore within the game that should make all of this clear.

Edited October 21, 2012 by ClonePatrol

[Stemin]

Astrid kidnapped you but gave you an out so no damage done? If someone kidnapped you IRL and told you that you could only leave if you killed someone for them you'd be fine with that then?

 

First off, this is a fictional world, so comparing it to real life is an exercise in futility. Second off, I had to kill someone for her attention to fall on me in the first place. An old defenseless woman. It's not like I was living the country club life and she abducted me.

 

You want the real life equivalent? It's like walking into a gang's territory and killing someone. You impinged on her turf. You're lucky she gave you a chance to live. So yeah. No harm no foul. It could have been a lot worse. I'm going to snip the rest. You're really far too long-winded. I know how the DB is supposed to work. I also know they were down to two paths. Surviving with Astrid's method, or relying on the Dragonborn's prowess to help them recover.

 

Astrid does sort-of admit to being responsible for what happened with Maro on her death bed though, when she admits that she did what she did because she just wanted things to go back to the way they were before the Dragonborn as Listener, Cicero, and the Night Mother (who by Dark Brotherhood tradition would all out rank her) showed up.

 

None of that proves whether or not she approached Maro or he blackmailed her.

 

I'm pretty sure that Cicero only kills Loreius and his wife if you turn him in to the guard for them, otherwise they get left alone. Cicero acting like a jester didn't, and doesn't really imply that he's nuts. He is a bit, but not completely. A jester is a type of performer, and it's not strange for people who perform for a living to stay in character whenever they are in public.

I know what a jester is. I didn't say his outfit made him nuts. I said his antics did. I very specifically separated those two features. If you're not going to read what I put down, I'm definitely not going to respond anymore because your messages are ridiculously long to begin with.

 

It's not all that weird for him to talk to the Night Mother either, even if she doesn't talk back she can hear him. The guy is frustrated and venting, it's a perfectly normal behavior, don't tell me you've never closed the door to a room and ranted about things you wouldn't want others to hear. Would it be any stranger if he was talking to a cat or a dog? Lots of people do that. I'd call it less strange even, because while it may seem odd because she's "dead", death in the Elder Scrolls universe isn't nearly the same sort of thing as in this one.

 

He's lugging a corpse around talking to it. At what point did that equate talking to yourself? And the Night Mother is supposed to be this mystical diety/entity, that he supposedly approves of, so why should he need to hide this from the other DB members?

 

Cicero also didn't just attack Veezara, he attacked Arbjorn for disrespecting the Night Mother (breaking the Five Tenets, and remember Cicero followed "the old ways" and that was a serious taboo, aside from being an obvious way to instigate a fight with him), and Veezara got hurt when he involved himself in the fight. It's also perfectly legitimate for him to expect Astrid to defer to you somewhat, since the Night Mother is by right as the Chosen of Sithis and by tradition, the true leader of the Dark Brotherhood and aside from her the Listener is traditionally the highest ranking member. It would also have been a legitimate request for the Dragonborn, even as Listener, to defer to her until they've become more experienced in the ways of the Dark Brotherhood. There is a lot they never even get the opportunity to learn before she betrays them, and she would have been an obvious choice for the Dragonborn to induct into the Black Hand, fully legitimizing her as a leader of the Dark Brotherhood as it comes back to power and not just that one Sanctuary.

 

Completely false. The real account is here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero

 

First lets preface the events by pointing out that Cicero agreed to follow Astrid when he entered the Sanctuary.

Astrid: "But make no mistake. I am the leader of this Sanctuary. My word is law. Are we clear on that point?"

Cicero: "Oh yes, mistress. Perfectly! You're the boss."

 

Second, Cicero was aimed at Astrid, not Arbjorn. There's no question here. He admits it himself in the Dawnstar Sanctuary later:

 

"All right, so Cicero attacked that harlot, Astrid! But what's a fool to do, when his mother is slandered and mocked? Surely the Listener understands!"

 

But Astrid points out that he "went berserk", and her story is backed up by everyone in the Sanctuary, even Festus who respects the old ways, pointing out that:

Cicero was a little whirlwind, slashing this way and that. It would have been funny, if he weren't trying to murder us all."

 

These things aren't open to debate. It's pretty solidly laid out.

 

Cicero also didn't really prep the Dawnstar Sanctuary, as the Night Mother's Keeper he simply knew the pass-phrase to it (and likely all the others), and how to activate and control it's defences. He does have those "binding tomes" full of all sorts of secret Dark Brotherhood lore doesn't he? Like the phrase that lets him know when a real Listener has been chosen? If you read his journals it is mentioned that he's already killed one person for pretending to be the Listener, and he knew they were pretending because they didn't know the phrase that only he knew.

 

Also false. Cicero DID prep the sanctuary. It's well documented in his journal that he was planning treachery against Astrid and had made a home for himself inside the sanctuary in Dawnstar:

23rd of Evening Star, 4E 200

The passphrase is mine! I have found it, in a letter ancient as the Sanctuary itself.

 

The Black Door will ask - "What is life's greatest illusion?"

 

I am to answer - "Innocence, my brother."

 

Finally, a space, a place, to call my own! A joker's retreat for the Fool of Hearts!!!!

 

4th of First Seed, 4E 201

The Sanctuary is home! As I had dared hope! Cool and dark and lovely. My Sanctuary, Sanctuary from all.

 

I know its every corner, every hall, every shadowed nook and alcove. My Sanctuary. The guardians know me, recognize me as Keeper. They leave poor Cicero alone. The big ugly beast - a different story. He'd eat me if he could, but to bind me, grind me, he'd need to find me. And Cicero will make sure that does not happen. For I have Sanctuary!

 

Sanctuary from all.

 

13th of First Seed, 4E 201

The Sanctuary is safety, and salvation. But silent, so silent. I give my love to the Unholy Matron. I give my laughter freely. But I do not hear her. The silence has returned. Now that I am laughter, and no longer hear laughter, I once again hear the silence. The silence of the Void. It reaches across time and space. Its silence is deafening, once more.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cicero%27s_Journal_-_Final_Volume

 

I'll address the rest of your post separately.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Stemin

[Stemin]

It's true, we don't know exactly how Astrid got her position, but it can be assumed to a certain degree.

 

You just lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned when you declared it was ok to assume something. That's no logical way to reason things out and proves you're just trying to make events fit your version. I'm just going to snip the rest of that since you already pointed out its an assumption.

 

The people of Skyrim also aren't in doubt about whether or not the Gods are real, the conflict in Skyrim and the banning of the worship of Talos is about the Apotheosis of the mortal Tiber Septim, founder of the Septim Dynasty into a God. The Thalmor, elven supremacists that they are, refuse to acknowledge that a human could become a God, even though he most certainly did.

 

I'm not going to open a debate about whether or not Tiber Septim is a god. I am going to apologize because you mistook what I said and I could see how that could be. When I said the people in Skyrim, I meant the people in Skyrim the game. The Thalmor are very much part of Nirn, and they very much prove my point. In edition we've seen evidence of people not knowing or supporting Nocturnal, the Night Mother, Meridian, etc. Hell, half the quests in the game involve you having to revive a dead god's sanctuary/worship/whatever.

 

 

 

The Sithis tome and the stained glass window are indicators that even under Astrids rule the Sanctuary is still essentially a temple to the God Sithis.

Conjecture.

 

 

As for Lucien, if you read the in-game books there's several descriptions of how magic works in the game world. To summon something forth the player just has to push a button, the character has to reach out to the place where that entity resides and needs to have a pretty good idea what they are trying to do. Even if Astrid herself didn't know how to summon Lucien from the Void, she knew how to summon Shadowmere from there.

If all magic in Nirn were scientifically laid out and understood by everyone, there would be no mystery as to where the Dwarves went. There's also the fact that it's constantly changing as new things are learned and things are lost (dragon shouts, spell making, etc) Astrid never shows any ability to use magic at any point during the game, no matter which path you choose. I also wouldn't count Shadowmere as proof either since he/she is clearly a special kind of magic. No spells or incantations were needed to bring him/her out from the pool. Shadowmere simply showed up when you left the sanctuary as if it sensed Astrid's need.

 

None of this is about faith, the only thing to do with faith in a world where Gods are obvious is in choosing which ones to follow. There's loads and loads of proof and lore within the game that should make all of this clear.

 

Proof of lore is a ridiculous concept when the series is constantly being retconned and things in the game contradict each other tall the time. (plot holes and such)

[ClonePatrol]

I'm not really up for another long winded reply, they're getting to be a bit much for me too, and I have other things to do so I'll try and keep this as short as possible.

 

I'm not exactly the only one assuming things: Where is this whole Maro blackmailing Astrid angle coming from? There's no evidence of anything like that occurring in game. It's an assumed possibility that designed to shed Astrid in a more forgiving light. It's certainly possible that he did, but given how the events in game unfolded it seems to incredibly unlikely to me, because based on how I assume a reasonable person would act in those situations (granted not all people are reasonable) they would have acted differently. People assume things all the time, there's nothing wrong with it. When you have a gap in your knowledge of a specific event, scenario, etc. you make assumptions based on similar things. For example, I don't know the exact operating procedures of my local chain of... let's say gas stations. But I do know a decent amount about those of retail businesses of similar size, and with similar needs. I can make pretty good assumptions about the minimum amount of experience their managers have, how much all of their employees are payed, how long before opening staff is likely to arrive, when the manager will be on site, how they do the employee scheduling, how many times a week they receive deliveries of certain goods, etc. Knowing a bit about the top level structure of the Dark Brotherhood, and the general structure of organizations spread over a large area that have to report to a small governing body, you can have a decent idea of how the Dark Brotherhood is likely structured.

 

It's not the clothes that make Cicero a jester, it's the clothes and the antics together. A jester is supposed to dress and act a certain way, it's what makes them a jester instead of some other type of clown. If he dressed like a jester and didn't act like one, he wouldn't be one. I'll admit to misremembering certain details (ex. Cicero's attack and his leaving), but there is a lot of stuff to keep straight and I simply don't have the time to fact check every single thing before I post. I still got the gist of his motives for the attack right though, who he attacked first (Astrid or Arnbjorn) is beside the point and Veezara did only get hurt because he involved himself. He needed to hide what he was saying from the rest of the Dark Brotherhood because he had been talking to other members in private about returning to the old ways, which Astrid would have been strongly against. Some of the other members weren't terribly opposed to it, so in a way Astrid was right about him, he just wasn't meeting with them in that room. As for him prepping the other sanctuary, that was really beside the point in the first place. So what if he did have a back up place to stay when Astrid proved hostile, that's really just good forethought on his part. If he can't "find sanctuary" in Falkreath because Astrid didn't want him or the Night Mother around (and she clearly didn't), he would need some other place to go. If he hadn't left when he did, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Astrid would have tried to get rid of him at the same time she tried to get rid of the Dragonborn.

 

Not everyone in Nirn knows everything about magic, that is obvious. But just like you can assume even an amateur chemist knows a bit about the periodic table of elements, you can assume somebody who employes a type of conjuration magic has to know a bit about how conjuration magic functions. Granted, I am assuming Astrid caused Shadowmere to come forth, since generally things can't cross the boundary from other planes to Nirn without being summoned (the whole Amulet of Kings and sealing tight the gates of Oblivion thing), but some of the events in game do shed some doubt on whether that's still true or not. It still seems highly unlikely that Astrid didn't know what she was giving the Dragonborn when they learned to summon Lucien.

 

This is the point where I'm goona have to stop for a while, I've got things to do today and for the rest of the week at least so I probably won't be on the forum much, if at all. EDIT: I really am long winded aren't I? I did mean for that to be shorter...

Edited October 21, 2012 by ClonePatrol

[Stemin]

I'm not really up for another long winded reply, they're getting to be a bit much for me too, and I have other things to do so I'll try and keep this as short as possible.

 

I'm not exactly the only one assuming things: Where is this whole Maro blackmailing Astrid angle coming from? There's no evidence of anything like that occurring in game. It's an assumed possibility that designed to shed Astrid in a more forgiving light.

 

That wasn't an assumption. I wasn't passing it off as fact. I was passing it off as a theory. There is no evidence one way or the other beyond Maro's assertion that someone in the dark brotherhood approached him.

 

Again, it's UNreasonable to believe that Astrid would have given him the pass phrase, and she really had no reason to turn in the dragonborn when it's Cicero she was really after and presumes dead at this point. So you have to try and figure out her motivation for doing such a thing. The only thing is to protect her family. Why would she believe her family was in any danger at all unless Maro indicated it? The game script alludes to her thinking you are usurping her power, but the facts are the game also guides you to do everything she asks, so there is no indication at all that you're not playing along being a good little db soldier.

 

It's not the clothes that make Cicero a jester, it's the clothes and the antics together. A jester is supposed to dress and act a certain way, it's what makes them a jester instead of some other type of clown. If he dressed like a jester and didn't act like one, he wouldn't be one. I'll admit to misremembering certain details (ex. Cicero's attack and his leaving), but there is a lot of stuff to keep straight and I simply don't have the time to fact check every single thing before I post. I still got the gist of his motives for the attack right though, who he attacked first (Astrid or Arnbjorn) is beside the point and Veezara did only get hurt because he involved himself. He needed to hide what he was saying from the rest of the Dark Brotherhood because he had been talking to other members in private about returning to the old ways, which Astrid would have been strongly against. Some of the other members weren't terribly opposed to it, so in a way Astrid was right about him, he just wasn't meeting with them in that room. As for him prepping the other sanctuary, that was really beside the point in the first place. So what if he did have a back up place to stay when Astrid proved hostile, that's really just good forethought on his part. If he can't "find sanctuary" in Falkreath because Astrid didn't want him or the Night Mother around (and she clearly didn't), he would need some other place to go. If he hadn't left when he did, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Astrid would have tried to get rid of him at the same time she tried to get rid of the Dragonborn.

 

None of this is "besides the point". The fact is, Cicero from the word go caused nothing but conflict and had no intention of even trying to see what these members were about. At the slightest provocation he started plotting treachery, and it wasn't the first time either. If you read his journals, you would know that in the past, someone claimed they were the listener, but couldn't give the proper response to prove it. Now by your Dark Brotherhood rules, Cicero would have been right to punish (kill) this person, but instead, he plots treachery, tricking another member into killing him.

 

Not everyone in Nirn knows everything about magic, that is obvious. But just like you can assume even an amateur chemist knows a bit about the periodic table of elements, you can assume somebody who employes a type of conjuration magic has to know a bit about how conjuration magic functions. Granted, I am assuming Astrid caused Shadowmere to come forth, since generally things can't cross the boundary from other planes to Nirn without being summoned (the whole Amulet of Kings and sealing tight the gates of Oblivion thing), but some of the events in game do shed some doubt on whether that's still true or not. It still seems highly unlikely that Astrid didn't know what she was giving the Dragonborn when they learned to summon Lucien.

 

None of that is true. I don't have to know how a computer works internally to use one. I don't have to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive a car. And again, assuming things is just plain bad policy.

 

This is the point where I'm goona have to stop for a while, I've got things to do today and for the rest of the week at least so I probably won't be on the forum much, if at all. EDIT: I really am long winded aren't I? I did mean for that to be shorter...

 

Yes. You are.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Stemin

[RighthandofSithis]

 

None of this is "besides the point". The fact is, Cicero from the word go caused nothing but conflict and had no intention of even trying to see what these members were about. At the slightest provocation he started plotting treachery, and it wasn't the first time either. If you read his journals, you would know that in the past, someone claimed they were the listener, but couldn't give the proper response to prove it. Now by your Dark Brotherhood rules, Cicero would have been right to punish (kill) this person, but instead, he plots treachery, tricking another member into killing him.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure its indicated that when he became keeper, he prety much forbid himself from killing others.

 

He did eventually break though, and I can't blame him.

 

Disclaimer: I condem the crimes of murder (IRL).

 

EDIT: In his 3rd journal, he says "This means the end of my contracts. I'll be lucky to lift a blade again."

Edited October 23, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[ProjectVRD]

I killed him because he is most annoying thing since politicians!