BAIN install rules and whose files should win

[Tinien]

Good day to everyone and God bless you. I have two another questions.

 

1. I don't understand what is "higher order package" in BAIN (BAsh INstallers) - is that package that is placed physically higher (installed earlier) relative to other packages? Or is that package that has next, higher digital number (6 is higher than 5) and hence is located LOWER in install order (installed later) than other packages? And second question about RAEVWD:

 

2. There are several nif files which are owned by UOP/UOMP and OCC/RAEVWD so these patches and mods conflict with each other because of the same files. These mods' packages are located lower in install order than UOP/UOMP so, according to BAIN install rules, if a "package being installed conflicts with a higher order package that's already active, then it won't overwrite the files from the higher package". I checked conflicting files in "Meshes" folder and found out that their install date and time matched install date and time of the other UOP/UOMP files. That means that BAIN didn't overwrite those conflicting files with those owned by mods (OCC/RAEVWD). Is it OK that these two mods haven't replaced these files (with the same names) with their own ones? In other words whose files should "win" in this conflict - UOP's/UOMP's or OCC's/RAEVWD's?

Edited January 26, 2019 by Tinien

[Moktah]

Think I found what you're looking for in the help section. (click the question mark in the bottom left toolbar of Wrye Bash)

 

BAIN Package Order

The Install Order of packages in BAIN is important as this decides which package gets its files installed in the case of resource conflicts.Packages may be listed in Install Order by left-clicking on the Order column header. If two packages try to install the same file, then the package installing later in the list will have its file overwrite the file of the package installing earlier in the list. For example, files in a package in install order position 06, would overwrite conflicting files in a package at install order position 04. Note that packages with a higher install order appear lower in the list of packages, and that may lead to confusion as people refer to them as "lower".

 

 

 

 

I take it as

Position 4 gets installed first

Position 6 gets installed later and will over write Position 4's files if they shared the same name/file

 

looks like it reacts the same as LOAD ORDER

the mod in Position 4 will LOAD first

then the mod with position 6 will LOAD and if they share game changes, position 6 overwrites all changes before it

[Tinien]

Many thanks to you, Moktah! At last I received clear answer to this question that bothered me. So based on this rule I now know that my assumptions (in 2nd question) about install order and about whose files should be overwritten were all wrong. Now I know for certain that files owned by OCC and RAEVWD WILL replace same files owned by UOP and UOMP. Many thanks to you again. Now there is one last important question - about Bashed Patch. Would you be so kind to view my (rather short) modlist and tell me should I build Bashed Patch on such modlist and if yes tnen which checkboxes should be activated?

 

 

00  Oblivion.esm
01  Open Cities Resources.esm  [Version 4.1.7]
02  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.5.5]
03  RealisticLeveling.esm
04  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.5.5]
05  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp
06  DLCShiveringIsles.esp
07  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.5.9]
08  FormID Finder4.esp
09  DLCHorseArmor.esp
0A  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.9]
0B  DLCOrrery.esp
0C  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.7]
0D  DLCVileLair.esp
0E  DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.11]
0F  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
10  DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.7]
11  DLCSpellTomes.esp
12  DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
13  DLCThievesDen.esp
14  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.15]
15  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch - SSSB.esp  [Version 1.0.14]
16  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.5.5]
17  OOO-No_Guild_Ownership.esp  [Version 1.33]
18  DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
19  DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.12]
1A  DLCFrostcrag.esp
1B  DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.10]
1C  OCOD+FrostcragSpire Patch.esp
1D  Knights.esp
1E  Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.1.8]
1F  OCC-KOTN-Patch.esp  [Version 3.1]
20  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul - Knights of Nine.esp
21  Open Cities New Sheoth.esp  [Version 2.0.2]
22  Open Cities Classic.esp  [Version 4.1.7]
23  Open Cities Outer Districts.esp  [Version 4.1.7]
24  OCC-OOO-Patch.esp  [Version 3.0]
25  Harvest [Flora].esp  [Version 3.0.0]
26  Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.0.0]
27  Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp  [Version 3.0.0]
28  Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp  [Version 3.0.0]
29  Toggleable Quantity Prompt.esp  [Version 3.2.0]
2A  OOOShiveringIsles.esp
2B  OOOSIArcheryPatch.esp
2C  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

There are also Darnified UI + Color Map (both installed with OBMM) which don't have esp plugins and, of course, aforementioned RAEVWD + RAEVWD SI Edition (both installed with Master Wizard in Wrye Bash, without esp plugins).

[Moktah]

my normal install includes the bashed patch as well as going through and making tweaks

when the bashed patch is being rebuilt.

 

such as.

UOP Vampire Aging << save an esp slot instead of downloading the mod itself

Arrow recovery << you can adjust it to a different percentage

 

there's a bunch more, you'd have to look at what you can select from.

 

I normally run BOSS to get my load order right

and sometimes BOSS has some notes concerning mods

"this such and such mod does not increase performance as advertised"

and BOSS usually adds the tags used by Wrye Bash

on a side note, BOSS also points out to which mods need cleaning with TES4Edit

Run BOSS, Find ‘clean’ and look to see which mods need cleaning

 

ALSO run wrye bash

Right click the header (ummm says File INstaller Modified Size and so on)

“Check Mods against LOOTs dirty mods list”

 

when I rebuild my bashed patch

 

I Right click on Bashed Patch

Select Rebuild Patch

Go through the options available such as the tweaks down toward the bottom

 

 

Random extra tip,

I don't like to uninstall any mod

I create a save (or a few saves depending on how I feel at the moment)

then create an image of my hard drive (my game and my documents are on the same drive so it works out for me)

then install the mod and try it out

if I don't like it or it crashes out

I restore the drive image

 

my install process takes a long long time

I've got notes where I create an image of my hard drive after installing a group of mods.

if something goes haywire in my install order or something, I can easily fire up an image

[Tinien]

Thanks again for such a detailed answer. Yes, I know about UOP Vampire Aging and Face fix in Bashed Patch instead of similar esp. "There's a bunch more" - this is just what I wish to ask you about, specifically about which checkboxes to tick or just leave them as they are set by default. I suppose that all Import checkboxes aren't necessary and can be unticked as they are presumably meant for an already existing savegame in order to import to this savegame all the content from newly added mods (and I plan to start a new game). At least I think so about purpose of these Import checkboxes. I want to ask you about remaining checkboxes, namely Leveled Lists, Contents Checker and SEWorld Tests. But first things first:

 

Could you please tell what plugin contains leveled lists for everything - Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm or Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp? I want to find out if it is necessary in Bashed Patch to merge changes in the leveled lists of these plugins (tick Leveled lists checkbox):

Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp
DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul - Knights of Nine.esp
OOOShiveringIsles.esp

If it is necessary to merge leveled lists of these plugins then hence is it also necessary to tick "Contents checker" checkbox which tells that it checks content of leveled lists, inventory and containers to see if they have the correct type?

And one more thing: "SEWorld Tests" should be also ticked or not? This setting stops all Cyrodiil quests while the player is on Shivering Isles (i.e. it re-initializes GetPlayerInSEWorld parameter if necessary).

 

That is rather big bunch of questions and I hope to receive answer to at least some of them.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Tinien

[Moktah]

its not importing anything into your 'savegame'

I think of it as the bashed patch has final say so over all the mods that are loaded before it

if there are any specific things you want that loads in slot 5 to absolutely keep (leveled lists)

then tick that one in the bashed patch

otherwise, if mod in slot 8 has a leveled list, it overwrites the changes that mod in slot 5 is asking to make

 

keeping that in mind, if you have a mod that LOADS after the bashed patch and it just so happens to have its own leveled lists,

then boom, it wins.

 

I kinda think of it as

if you think of a list food items in game

............... food a..........food b...........food c..........food d.........food e..........food f

Mod A.... default..........default..........modded.......default........default.........default <<<< got it... the modder of this mod only modded the third item. the rest are still default

MOB B... modded.......default..........default ........default.........modded.......modded

 

So... how do you KEEP the changes made by both mods?

If MOD B overwrites changes that MOD A made, then MOD A's third Modded item may be set back to default.

So let Wrye Bash look at the changes each mod made and keep the modded items from both mods

In this case, keep the modded items from both Mods

 

(I sure hope I'm saying this right. if not, somebody jump in here and stop my madness)

 

when you hover over "SEWorld Tests" it gives some text down there describing what it does.

something along the lines of suspending the main quest while you are venturing in to Shivering Isles

 

I'll be rather honest about it, I let BOSS handle the bashed tags and most of the checks that need to be checked are checked.

I just go in and tweak the stuff I want from there.

[Tinien]

There seems to be a lot to learn yet in how Wrye Bash works. If you don't mind I want to clarify some things. This example with Mod A and Mod B relates to which options in BP - Imports or Leveled Lists? I still don't quite understand the difference between them and, to be honest, what are they exactly and what do they do. AFAIK about Leveled Lists they contain records about various actors and items respawning in certain places and that these actors and items can be of various level and grade/quality depending on PC level or by random or something else. It is better to enable Leveled Lists in BP, to my mind.

 

About all that Import Options. There are 18 of them in a whole and 13 are checked by default. Is it better for them to be ticked in my case? WB Readme says about Import Actors, for example, that "In cases where two source mods modify the same Actor in the same way, then the later loading source mod will win. If they modify the same actor in different ways (e.g. one changes AIData, the other changes DeathItem), then both changes will be included in the patch if properly tagged and selected". End of citation. But doesn't plugins' load order itself work in the same way - overrides conflicting content in the same object and combines different changes such as AIData and DeathItem in the same object? Problem is that not all of my mods have Bash Tags (Darnified UI, Color Map, Realistic Leveling, RAEVWD, RAEVWD SI Edition) hence they aren't included in Import options and so Import feature in Bashed Patch could make records from other, tagged mods overwrite corresponding records in these tagless mods resulting in breaking load order.

[Striker879]

Wrye Bash uses bash tag in addition to load order for sorting out conflict winners. If two or more mods use exactly the same bash tags and change exactly the same data that the bash tag covers then load order between those mods will determine the winner of that particular conflict.

 

Not all mods need to have bash tags ... generally BOSS is the best source (after mod authors of course) for appropriate bash tags, especially in cases like your Darn et al example (mods that have been around and have been popular/widely used for a long time). Mods like those have benefited from the "collective wisdom" that BOSS employs around things like load order and bash tags whereas newer mods to the BOSS masterlist may still benefit from some fine tuning if problems are reported.

 

Mod don't need to have bash tags to be included in the bashed patch ... all that is required for inclusion is a conflict with another mod in your load order.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Striker879

[Tinien]

I still don't catch how Imports in Bashed Patch work. Should these 13 Import options also be ticked as they are by default or maybe is it better to untick them and just let BOSS'ed load order to do its job? I'm not sure if all these Imports are really needed when a correct load order does the same job of choosing proper records in loaded plugins and applying these records' effects in the game.

[Striker879]

Leave them ticked. Wrye Bash will only import those things that need to be imported into the bashed patch.

 

So if a mod has a bash tag applied and is in the recommended load order set by BOSS but no other mod in your load order conflicts with that mod in any way it will not have anything imported into the bashed patch.

 

The report that comes up after building a bashed patch outlines exactly what type of records from which mods are imported into the bashed patch. If you really want to dig down and see what all those records in the bashed patch are load it up into TES4Edit and you'll see what the bashed patch contains and where those records come from.