Please LIE to me

[sukeban]

I know, 2008 tech

As others have said, I think that the state of Skyrim is less of a technology limitation and more of a conscious design choice, e.g. the decision to simplify "traditional RPG" elements for a broader ("casual") consumer base. Casual players, as a rule, don't particularly like difficult choices, compelling story lines, or worrying about troublesome elements like governing stats or convoluted leveling schemes. This, at least, seems to be the conventional wisdom regarding contemporary game design.

 

I don't 100% believe the above though. I think that the success of *throws up in mouth* mobile games and browser games has sort of imposed this philosophy on many developers. I don't have access to the market research, but I'd hazard the guess that, for a large segment even of casual game players, the craft beer axiom should be fully applied: that, when given the choice, most people will choose good beer (craft beer) over bad beer (Coors), all things being equal. In other words, I think that even casual game players would prefer to play well-developed, thoughtful games over insipid, fluffy games, all things being equal. The "all things being equal," IMO, is the "mechanics making sense" (game systems are intuitive and, above all, fun) outlined by the OP.

 

For Skyrim, I think that most game players view the combat system as a vast improvement over previous iterations (I KNOW I do!). Of course, graphics are also vastly improved. UI is frustrating, but hardly unplayable (I have never used SkyUI). This is the skeleton of a successful game in this genre. With this foundation laid down, I think that Beth could have been far more imaginative with the story/quests/itemization/NPCs/crafting/settlements/directions/etc. and would not have lost (m)any casual game players. Casual game players aren't going to be mad about having a nice Main Quest story or about not being able to make Guild Master in every faction. If the basic gameplay is compelling and satisfying enough to hold their interest, they should have no problem rolling another character to finally join the DB or whatever.

 

Basically, I would regard many/most of Skyrim's shortcomings to be based upon Beth not giving their audience enough credit, of believing the conventional wisdom that casual game players demand that their games be shallow and easy. On the other hand, the RPG (or pseudo-RPG) genre is not for everyone; certainly it is far more of a niche genre than, say, sports games and/or shooters. But good games stand on their own and hold their value regardless of gaming epoch. I still play the old Zelda and Final Fantasy games from time to time because they are good games, no matter the era. Skyrim, for me, is a good game, but is IS reliant upon mods to keep me coming back. Beth's sales would not suffer if they reinstated depth in their products; all types of game players appreciate well-made games.

Edited July 23, 2012 by sukeban

[ginnyfizz]

Actually, the vanilla UI is most definitely unplayable for those of us who have a disability affectings hands, fingers, wrists. It is for me the most impossible UI in any game I have ever played and rightly received a caning in many commentaries, not just on disability related sites. One of the reasons for keeping Steam offline in case there is an update in the offing is so that I can make sure SKSE is updated and thus SkyUI working properly. And no, it isn't that my peripherals are crappy as well as my hands - QPad MK85 Professional mechanical keyboard and Logitech G700 mouse.

 

I think the problem is that Skyrim has been all about flash ;- gimmicky release date that they felt they had to stick to and so rushed out a half finished game; flashy stuff like mounted combat and OMG you can play as a werewolf (but our quest is bugged so you might stay like it even if you try to cure it)but no concerted attempt to fix the existing bugs whilst also introducing new ones, but it has also been about cash for Bethesda and leaping into bed with Valve (with the aim of seizing control of mods in order to make money selling them in the future no doubt) and M$. Along the line, substance was kicked into the long grass, so we have abysmal NPC dialogue, or rather lack of it, short quests and what there is, is bugged....etc.

[Enatiomorph]

Most of his complains sound like someone new to the series that doesnt understand this has to run on hardware from 2005, which was even outdated then.

 

No. No, in fact, it doesn't have to run on obsolete hardware, with a user interface so broken that it's unplayable without SkyUI, and with every game mechanic more complex than "HIT IT WITH A SWORD" removed so as not to confuse the drooling troglodytes on consoles. Just like Bethesda doesn't have to release bugware which won't be patched into a playable state for six months to a year by using their paying customers as free beta testers. But they do. And they do it because they are not satisfied with turning a modest profit by releasing a quality product. They want to be John Romero, sitting in his penthouse mansion, snorting ground-up rhino horn off the oiled thighs of virginal Nubian princesses while hundred dollar bills flutter down from on high like green snow, and they're not going to let a little thing like artistic vision, ethics, or integrity get in the way of it.

 

I can sweep down with 100 men -- on horseback -- in Mount & Blade, a game designed by two guys with a budget which wouldn't pay for the Skyrim team's Cheetos, but because Bethesda needs to give sloppy kisses to every slope-headed neanderthal with an Xbox, we get the epic clash of "armies" consisting of eight identical dudes and a catapult.

You must be new to the series as well.

[Odrackyir]

You must be new to the series as well.

 

Let me tell you pal, if I had actually played Morrowind before this game, after having read what Bethesda has been doing to the series since Morrowind, I'd have returned Skyrim.

 

The problem with this game is that they've turned the series into a sandbox showoff, instead of a game.

[Freyrgjurd]

Well,

 

Played enough (over ~200h) and I can say: Lacks the punch.

 

You pretty much clear the game in one day, if you have the patience and time. At least the important parts.

 

Then what ? You're left in a empty world, after doing MAJOR things, so that people can look at you and say: "Hands to yourself sneak thief".

 

That's why I uninstalled it. The end-game + reaction system is so boner-breaking.

[alsoran]

151 official hours recorded and probly the same again playing offline. I agree, its very pretty ( I love the waterfals with fishes jumping), shallow and unfinished. There is a tremendous amount of stuff for you to do and see which I like and at the same time they've cut a lot of useful things out which were in the previous games hopefully not left out for the sake of convenience. I'm trying to put my finger on the problem and it does seem that they have sacrificed immersion and plot. I've found myself not caring about what happens to npc's which is a concern because treating them as cannon fodder is never a good thing, is it? It may be a console thing but I cant say.

 

<pause> I did care for lydia once because of her innocent stupidity and dutifully gave her full funeral honours when she inevitably stepped infront of my destruction spell. Uthgerd the Unbroken deserved a similar honour after valiently sacrificing her life in my defense against the Thalmor. A true Nord she was laid in the snow in her armour with her weapons by her side and her vanquished foes at her feet</pause>

 

I too am irritated by not being hurt by walking across open fires, I miss having to repair my armour and weapons as they get worn, I hate that Arnie did most of the male voiceovers. Where are the consequences of my actions and how come my characters fame and celebrity is so rudely ignored? I'd be happier if they threw mud at me because some villager was killed when the dragon I slew fell on them, at least it would be justiofied. Kill a chicken and then see what happens! Theres a war on but no-one seems very bothered about it except theres a lot of talk about the war, as there is about dragons.

 

I fired up morrowind + dlc, a little while ago and I was bowled over by the depth of that game, how big and connected it seemed, how much better the story lines and plots were. I think depth of characterisation and plots were better in morrowind and oblivion, and the quests seemed more urgent and important although I hated the main quest in oblivion. Thank goodnes for alternate start mods.

 

Having just started to play dragonage ultimate edition I was suprised at how good the story lines and the humour written into that game were. I'm not a fan of linear 3rd person games interspersed with large amounts of cut scenes so its not a recommendation, especially as I've just started that game, but does DA have a warm fuzzy magnetic pull which Beth seem to have lost in the making of skyrim? Perhaps the stark futuristic feel of the fallout series has had an influence.

 

So why do I still play this game? Its because of the mods enabling me to change the game environment and because I really like the first person perspective, pure and simply. I can make believe that its me doing all those cool things and romping through the landscape, mods change the game enough to allow me to enjoy that fantasy. I've made it look prettier, I've made the landscape feel that there really is a war on, I can craft stuff, I can starve, I can thirst, I can ride ( I quite like it) I can have a gang and go up against a large host, the nights and dungeons are scary dark, I have somewhere to sit and read quietly in the evening.

 

As far as the game engine allows modification, other people are filling in the gaps, making up and patching the shortcomings of the game for me, so that it remains pretty but has a great deal more depth to it. The amount of quality mods is tremendous. I'm planning specific characters with their own skillset living in their own part of skyrim, maybe they never go near civilisation and remain untouched by events or maybe they are prervented from going about their daily business because of events, either way there are lots of interesting scenarios to explore. You can be a lot of things in skyrim and other games of this type and with the right mods you can build your characters life story whether its a richman, poorman, beggarman, or thief, mage, fighter, hunter or vampire. Thats not something you are able to do in most games and thats why beths games especially appeal to me.

 

Skyrim is an excellent game but I don't think it would be as successful without a built in mod community which I think has undoubtedly saved it as they saved oblivion (no word of a lie), there are already some great stories that have been written for it and I hope more will continue to be written, if previous Beth games is anything to go by, that makes it a long term proposition for me. As a standalone I would give it 7/10 after playing it and moving on. Lastly, I hope that very soon someone will improve the depth of npc characterisation and interaction so I can have a decent conversation. Hello Emma?

Edited July 23, 2012 by alsoran

[Lisnpuppy]

Let me make something clear. If you think someone is trolling...report them. Do not engage them...do not become a vigilante. Keep it nice and to the topic or such sad things may happen like...topics being closed and people getting strikes. I'd hate that...or would I? Have some cheese.~Lisnpuppy

[Enatiomorph]

You must be new to the series as well.

 

Let me tell you pal, if I had actually played Morrowind before this game, after having read what Bethesda has been doing to the series since Morrowind, I'd have returned Skyrim.

 

The problem with this game is that they've turned the series into a sandbox showoff, instead of a game.

Most of what you say has nothing to do with that though, only points 3 or 4. The rest of your complaints and wants would have been even worse in previous games.

 

And if this were a sandbox show off, wouldn't it have all of your unrealistic wants/demands?

Edited July 23, 2012 by Enatiomorph

[Relativelybest]

1- Combat is STILL un-reactive. After watching a couple vids, I'm confident saying it's been like this since 1994. I'm not even kidding now, they released Arena back then. Go watch the vids if you don't believe me. Also don't know when they introduced dual wielding, but that's gotta be the one single and most relevant thing they've done for the combat system in the whole series. 2012? my second weapon wont stay when sheath it.

 

Focusing on the Block skill is pretty much the only way to go. Otherwise, yeah, the fighting kinda sucks.

 

2- The world STILL wont react at player's anyone's actions. Cast seven fireballs towards an NPC, miss for some couple feet? guy just keeps walking, doesn't even look at you. SWAG. 15 feet tall, firebreathing dragon in the middle of town? Farmer will farm. Random peasant goes all #LeroyJenkins. C'mon. Skyrim logic? Player wins Civil War, nothing happens.

 

Well, at least they show a bit of improvement. For example, I like that when you accidentally steal something, the owner just takes it back. (As opposed to instantly calling the guards, who treat you like a highwayman for picking up an apple, like in Oblivion.) Baby steps, I suppose.

 

3- Videogame's HIV, widely known as ''Mainstreaming'': Carrying alchemy apparatus? Too underground, let's have it so people have to find an alchemy site that, no matter where you go, it's always the same model. Alchemator-3000. Percentage improvement of skills. Uplevel killing 200 crabs, improve pickpocket. You're good enough with the bow, now you slow down time! Let's just make sure we don't innovate towards more creative, and sensemaking rewards/mechanics.

 

I liked the time slow thing for the archery, actually. Makes sense being an awesome archer should let you concentrate better while using a bow. Hell, I liked any perk that simulated increased skill, rather then just letting you hit harder.

 

4- Arrive to Winterhold College, can't cast a fireball. Two days later still can't cast fireball, but guild leader. comethef*ckonBeth.

 

God yes. At least my character was a master enchanter at that point, but still, she basically became archmage due to being good at killing people.

 

Actually, someone should make a mod where Tolfdir becomes archmage instead. He's pretty much made for the job, is the most senior mage at the end of the plotline, and was basically the guy who held everything together while the PC went dungeon diving.

 

5- When interacting with non-friendly factions, NPCs are just like Chuck Norris: have two speeds, walk and kill. I mean, it's astounding. How do they know, random mage in random tunic, shoot at sight. Twenty bandits, three legionaries? Legionaries charge. Every-single-time. Come on, at least give me SOME drama. ''Surrender at once!'' ''ok don't kill me''... BEFORE the guy's received a dozen blows. that'd be enough, I'd swear. Legionaries surrender, bandits capture them, tie them up, everything happens in real time. I'd be sold for some... any of that. But man. Kill at sight? Every time?

 

Agreed, the NPC AI is pretty crude.

 

6- Far Cry 2 had flammable bushes, Beth. Back in 2008.

 

What, you want to set the world on fire? :laugh:

 

7- How... No, wait, who was the GENIUS behind the idea of using the rotating stones as an universal dungeon puzzle? 'Cause that guy, man... that guy.

 

8- ''OOHH since ancient times, no one's been able to figure out the metal claws enigma'' (no, this is real in-game dialogue. There's a guy saying something like this in Skyrim).

 

Eh, at least the game has puzzles. I think demanding different ones for different dungeons would be a bit much to ask given how the game is constructed.

 

Honestly, if we're going that way, I'd go full out and demand more varied dungeons period. Really, they all look the same after a while.

 

9- Hey, so now NPCs won't pursue past their own cell? Wait they did pursue you past their cell back in Oblivion, didn't they? (they did).

 

I found this to be kind of a relief, actually. Allowed you to retreat and think your strategy over.

 

10- Did they even try to make this game good? 'Cause to me, it looks like at some point they were like... mfg off with you

 

Well, it's obviously rushed in many places. And, really, I think the main problem with Bethesda's games in general is that they focus on quantity before quality, basically as a result of the game design. At the end of the day, I think I would have prefered a smaller game with less options if it meant a more refined product.

 

Still, I wouldn't go as far as calling it a bad game. Just flawed.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Relativelybest

[DaedalusMachina]

Calling OP trolling for simply not agreeing with the way a game is made is a direct insult, and nothing short of it. Shame on... whoever that was, since I can't be arsed to go back and find his name.

 

Going through this topic is interesting, because at first everybody bashed the op, now half the people posting agree with him.

 

Everybody here seems to think we want a "perfect" game. We're not asking for a perfect game, we're just asking that the choices the developers made make SENSE.

 

AI - This was not a design flaw, this was a design choice. Making peons flee from any kind of typical conflict MAKES SENSE. A farmer armed with nothing more than a pickaxe would NOT square off against the weakest of dragons. In fact, if there's a known attack in the city, everybody not wearing armor should flee to their houses, or just flee. Horses are the same way, why is it every time my horse sees red (in my radar) he goes ape? You are a horse. Better yet, you're a horse I paid more for than my companion, who can actually survive a fight, don't throw away my good money because you're an idiot that behaves more like a sabretooth than a horse. Again, switching the AI out for a more sensible package is easy, they chose not to do it.

 

Puzzles - My god. There are a grand total of, what? Three puzzles in the entire game? Dawnguard introduces more puzzles and places all but one of them in the same area with virtually no point or real reward.

 

But if you can ignore all of that (and sometimes, it's a little hard) it's a great game.