Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[sajuukkhar9000]

-You have to remember that, before any of this happened, before the Empire even existed as we know it, there was Tiber Septim. Tiber Septim was brought up in Skyrim, he was a Nord, and he was also a Dragonborn.

-Through military conquest and his own strength, he defeated the enemies of the Nords as Talos and unified Cyrodiil under the Septim Dynasty, eventually conquering all of Tamriel under Imperial rule.

-The current Empire we know is trying to destroy everything Talos built in the name of succumbing to the wishes of a bunch of elves. I think Ulfric had every right to take back Skyrim from the Empire, because the Empire is no longer what it was created to be, but a weak and corrupt shell of itself.

-The Empire agreed to forsake the one person that brought it into existence to bend a knee to outsiders.

-No he wasn't, Tiber Septim was born and raised in the High Rock kingdom of Alcaire, and there's some evidence to show he wasn't even a nord.

-You mean through the powers of another, Ysmir Wulfharth, and through ordering the assassination of his own king, does he unify Cyrodiil under The Septim dynasty, along with the rest of Tamirel in a short time after.

-Actually, the empire as it is now is planning to screw over the elves.

-So that they could rebuild and gather their strength so they could overthrow those outsiders.

Edited August 5, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[fifteenspades]

In my opinion, it all went the way it should have. The most powerful people will rule if they choose to. And Skyrim belongs to the Nords, not the Empire. It never belonged to the Empire as it is now.

 

You have to remember that, before any of this happened, before the Empire even existed as we know it, there was Tiber Septim. Tiber Septim was brought up in Skyrim, he was a Nord, and he was also a Dragonborn. Through military conquest and his own strength, he defeated the enemies of the Nords as Talos and unified Cyrodiil under the Septim Dynasty, eventually conquering all of Tamriel under Imperial rule. The current Empire we know is trying to destroy everything Talos built in the name of succumbing to the wishes of a bunch of elves. I think Ulfric had every right to take back Skyrim from the Empire, because the Empire is no longer what it was created to be, but a weak and corrupt shell of itself. The Empire agreed to forsake the one person that brought it into existence to bend a knee to outsiders.

 

The debate of Ulfric using the voice as "unfair" is just stupid, also. Talos had the voice which he openly used to defeat his enemies. It's something that makes them more powerful than others. Others can learn to use the voice without being Dragonborn, but they don't and that's their loss. Nord tradition is about the most powerful warriors, not about making things "fair". Combat is honorable if engaged without any sort of trickery beforehand, and Ulfric was using his resources to fight and win.

 

Skyrim wasn't the nords to begin with. they stole it. "belongs" to the nords, is just a flat out lie.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Skyrim wasn't the nords to begin with. they stole it. "belongs" to the nords, is just a flat out lie.

 

That's not entirely accurate.

[BloodrendX001]

 

Skyrim wasn't the nords to begin with. they stole it. "belongs" to the nords, is just a flat out lie.

 

That's not entirely accurate.

 

 

Trying to determine what "belongs" to whom in the TES world is just folly. You could say that the Empire "stole" all the other provinces and had no rights to it, but rights only exist (in practice) when they're agreed upon. Its hinted that the Nords have actually been migrating and emigrating to and from Skyrim well before Ysgramor. Quite possibly, the Nords where the original inhabitants of Skyrim, and when they left to Atmora the first time, the Falmer came. Or maybe it was the Elk and Deers who were first in Skyrim? Who in Coldharbour knows....

 

Its worth mentioning that Hammerfell would not ally with the Empire considering what has happened. But a Stormcloak Skyrim..... Warrior culture, but importantly shared hatred of the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion.... Those are grounds for an alliance. And considering that together they surround High Rock.... Well, just imagine if joint Redguard-Nord forces conquer High Rock? In effect, we have a new empire, with a lot of land, resources and gushing with Thalmor-hate... Enough to make the Thalmor shift uncomfortably on their pedestal, and sure to incite some anti-Thalmor sentiment in Cyrodiil and elsewhere.

 

About Tiber Septim/Talos, I'm betting that the whole "ATMORAN, SON OF SKYRIM" thing is propaganda. Remember the Ghost of Old Hroldan? "Hjalti", "Aclaire". It's likely that he was a Nord by the name of Hjalti Early-Beard from Aclaire, gifted with the Voice.

[sajuukkhar9000]

-Trying to determine what "belongs" to whom in the TES world is just folly. You could say that the Empire "stole" all the other provinces and had no rights to it, but rights only exist (in practice) when they're agreed upon. Its hinted that the Nords have actually been migrating and emigrating to and from Skyrim well before Ysgramor. Quite possibly, the Nords where the original inhabitants of Skyrim, and when they left to Atmora the first time, the Falmer came. Or maybe it was the Elk and Deers who were first in Skyrim? Who in Coldharbour knows....

 

-Its worth mentioning that Hammerfell would not ally with the Empire considering what has happened. But a Stormcloak Skyrim..... Warrior culture, but importantly shared hatred of the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion.... Those are grounds for an alliance. And considering that together they surround High Rock.... Well, just imagine if joint Redguard-Nord forces conquer High Rock? In effect, we have a new empire, with a lot of land, resources and gushing with Thalmor-hate... Enough to make the Thalmor shift uncomfortably on their pedestal, and sure to incite some anti-Thalmor sentiment in Cyrodiil and elsewhere.

 

-About Tiber Septim/Talos, I'm betting that the whole "ATMORAN, SON OF SKYRIM" thing is propaganda. Remember the Ghost of Old Hroldan? "Hjalti", "Aclaire". It's likely that he was a Nord by the name of Hjalti Early-Beard from Aclaire, gifted with the Voice.

-According to ancient legends, The Nrods were created on the throat of the world by Kyne at the dawn of time, meaning they would be the first inhabitants of skyrim.

 

-It isn't worth noting that Hammerfell wouldn't ally with The Empire because its not true in the slightest.

 

-Which I was pointing out

[fifteenspades]

 

-Trying to determine what "belongs" to whom in the TES world is just folly. You could say that the Empire "stole" all the other provinces and had no rights to it, but rights only exist (in practice) when they're agreed upon. Its hinted that the Nords have actually been migrating and emigrating to and from Skyrim well before Ysgramor. Quite possibly, the Nords where the original inhabitants of Skyrim, and when they left to Atmora the first time, the Falmer came. Or maybe it was the Elk and Deers who were first in Skyrim? Who in Coldharbour knows....

 

-Its worth mentioning that Hammerfell would not ally with the Empire considering what has happened. But a Stormcloak Skyrim..... Warrior culture, but importantly shared hatred of the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion.... Those are grounds for an alliance. And considering that together they surround High Rock.... Well, just imagine if joint Redguard-Nord forces conquer High Rock? In effect, we have a new empire, with a lot of land, resources and gushing with Thalmor-hate... Enough to make the Thalmor shift uncomfortably on their pedestal, and sure to incite some anti-Thalmor sentiment in Cyrodiil and elsewhere.

 

-About Tiber Septim/Talos, I'm betting that the whole "ATMORAN, SON OF SKYRIM" thing is propaganda. Remember the Ghost of Old Hroldan? "Hjalti", "Aclaire". It's likely that he was a Nord by the name of Hjalti Early-Beard from Aclaire, gifted with the Voice.

-According to ancient legends, The Nrods were created on the throat of the world by Kyne at the dawn of time, meaning they would be the first inhabitants of skyrim.

 

-It isn't worth noting that Hammerfell wouldn't ally with The Empire because its not true in the slightest.

 

-Which I was pointing out

 

 

Those are just legends, nothing credible about them. the nords were born in Atmora and migrated to Skyrim after a civil war and declining enviroment forced them to flee their home Ysgramor was not the first colonist to settle skyrim from atmora but he is the most notable. But Skyrim was originally inhabited by the snow elves and the nords and snow elves lived in peace and co existence at first. but with population growth and other resources tensions increased and the snow elves fearing the ever growing nords slaughterd a city of them which is known as "Night of Tears" the survivors fled back to atmora gathered the famous "500 companions" then led an extinction against the elves.

 

So no skyrim was not theirs to begin with, they stole it.

 

Next part has spoilers for Dawnguard Quest

 

Also falmer are and are not elves. All falmer in skyrim are snow elves, but not every snow elf is a falmer.

When the snow elves had no where to run too they turned to the Dwarves ( Dwemer ) and they had to eat a toxic plant that turned them blind and after centuries of living underground and some suspect in slavery ( willingly or not ) they became the twisted beings known as falmer.

 

[Lachdonin]

The Hammerfell horse has been thoroughly beaten. Highlights include A: the Redguard didn't willingly join the Empire in the first place, and yet became some of its greatest defenders. B; The Reguard and Nords have an unfriendly history anyway. C; The main complaints against the Empire would disappear after the renewed conflict with the Thalmor. D; the Redguard are none to fond of either Lorkhan/Shor or Talos, so the religious fervor of the Nords would be offputting. Conclusion; Hammerfell has just as much cause to re-join the Empire as it does to side with a Free Skyrim.

 

Now, as for who Skyrim belongs to... Initially, it seems to have been the Nords. They were supposedly created there, at the Throat of the World (or as per my pet theory, the Skyforge... Ever wonder why it burns brighter after Kodlak's funeral, and why the Elves avoid it?). Men then sided with Lorkhan, and lost against the Divines and their Mer armies, and were scattered, some in Atmora, some in Yokuda, some in far places of Tamriel etc. Then, as the Mer spread across Tamriel and became divided, the Falmer became the dominant inhabitants of Skyrim (though the Dwemer were there as well). The Atmorans returned to Skyrim first, settling the northern coast, and were eventually driven off (either having something to do with the Eye of Magnus, or because they bred like rabbits) by the Falmer. Then Ysgramor returned with the 500 Companions (who i tend to view more as 500 warlords, each with their own accompanying armies) and destroyed the Falmer (the rest, as they say, is history).

 

Skyrim's history is one of war and conquest, where the 'rightful' owners hold it only by their own military might. The Empire conquered Skyrim, making it legitimately theirs. At least until someone stronger comes to throw them out. Can the Stormcloaks do it? Certainly not, given the fact that the Empire is holding them steady with nothing but local recruits. If the legion were to actually make an effort to put them down, that would be the end of it. As such, the whole claim that 'Skyrim belongs to the Nords' is one based solely on the ancient Nord conquest of Skyrim, a conquest which has since been overturned.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Those are just legends, nothing credible about them. the nords were born in Atmora and migrated to Skyrim after a civil war and declining enviroment forced them to flee their home Ysgramor was not the first colonist to settle skyrim from atmora but he is the most notable. But Skyrim was originally inhabited by the snow elves and the nords and snow elves lived in peace and co existence at first. but with population growth and other resources tensions increased and the snow elves fearing the ever growing nords slaughterd a city of them which is known as "Night of Tears" the survivors fled back to atmora gathered the famous "500 companions" then led an extinction against the elves.

 

So no skyrim was not theirs to begin with, they stole it.

 

Next part has spoilers for Dawnguard Quest

 

Also falmer are and are not elves. All falmer in skyrim are snow elves, but not every snow elf is a falmer.

When the snow elves had no where to run too they turned to the Dwarves ( Dwemer ) and they had to eat a toxic plant that turned them blind and after centuries of living underground and some suspect in slavery ( willingly or not ) they became the twisted beings known as falmer.

 

 

Except that

-The Skyforge, which is in the shape of an eagle, the ancient Nordic animal totem of Kyne, and sits in the shadow of the Throat of the world, is described as

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Songs_of_the_Return

"Of those who wrought it solid from its mother-stone, nothing could be said, but it was known to drive a magic almost as old as Nirn itself, some remnant of the gods' efforts to render a paradise in Mundus before the shattering of Lorkhan."

Putting Kyne in Skyrim before Mer.

 

-"Shor son of Shor" puts not only Lorkhan and Kyne, but an army of Nords, at the Throat of the World before his sundering at convention. Which connects to the information we know about the Skyforge pre-dating Lorkhan's death.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full

 

-Nu-Hatta, of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree, says the following in the Nu-Mantia Intercept

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept

"Do not believe the written histories.

All mortal life started on the starry heart of Dawn's beauty, Tamriel."

 

-Even Gelebor in Dawnguard makes mention of the Nords attack being because they believed they were reclaiming their ancient homeland.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make about the Falmer in you spoiler, I never brought them up at all.

Edited August 5, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[fifteenspades]

The falmer part was in the multi quote and not directed at you sajuu. i will be more clear next time

 

Kyne is older then men or mer, so is the skyforge that does not make it nordic. What exactly about Kyne makes her a nord?

Just because the nords worshiped her doesn't make her nordic. she's just a Nordic Goddess. I could be wrong about this, not really familiar with her

 

- As for Shor son of Shor i can't really take with anything credible it's just a fragment of a theory

This is a forum fragment, to be taken in the same vein as the posts on the long-ago WWPD? thread. Meaning this is not necessarily true...but if it were, what does it mean?

 

- not sure why you linked Nu Hatta. Are you trying to say that bc elves were not born on skyrim it can't be theirs? O.o

 

- Just because nords believed they were reclaiming their homeland doesn't make it true.

[Lachdonin]

The references to Kyne were more about her creating the Nords than about her being a Nord. Kyne was in Skyrim before the Mer, and Kyne created the Nords (or really, proto-nords) there before the war between the Divines and Lorkhan. This means that Men (Nords, Proto-Nords etc) were the first Black Souls to inhabit Skyrim.

 

The quote from Nu Hatta pertains to the fact that all life, of all sorts, started on Tamriel and then was relocated. Even the Akiviri are native to Tamriel. The point is to reinforce the idea of the Return, that the proto-Nords were created in Skyrim, relocated following Lorkhan's defeat, and then returned. They are not FROM Atmora. They were exiled TO Atmora.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Lachdonin