Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[fifteenspades]

Short answer is yes. If you need evidence just look at america's history. ( note i am american )

Unless as a collective they agreed to ask for your assistance.

Edited August 11, 2013 by fifteenspades

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

The action by itself is neither wrong or right... the intent and or the reasons behind it on the other hand can be the true evil. So if something is only about ambition alone, then no, it is not noble and it is not heroic.

 

In other words, those that are fighting only because they feel Skyrim should be free to worship Talos and only because they don't want any more of Skyrim's people dragged off into the night are noble... Ulfric doesn't only want what is right for his people, he is also focused on himself.

 

If it'll make it easier to understand, let's remove such labels as good and evil and just focus on noble and genuine selflessness.

 

Do I think Ulfric's motives are purely noble? No. I think that like most people. Ulfric is simply human and has less than noble intentions behind his actions in addition to noble ones. He is not purely noble in his motivations just as most people aren't. He is not as genuinely selfless as he tries to come off.

[rattlemebones]

Speaking of Talos, what about the empire he created at the beginning of the third era? He basically dominated all of Tamriel because, based on different accounts, he either was particularly ambitious or it was his destiny. He is The Conquerer. He then must be the evilest man in the history of Nirn because he conquered a continent.

 

I'm not arguing anything; I'm just applying logic.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

If he is just fulfilling what he believed to be his destiny, then he wasn't being noble but he wasn't being selfish either. He was just doing what he thought was his purpose. Kind of like an animal not being evil or good, just fulfilling their purpose.

 

If it was simply due to ambition, then again, not noble or heroic, just something he wanted to do. Sure tales paint him as a hero, but tales will do the same for Ulfric. Regardless, I think the man's desires are more about him and less about wanting what is best for Skyrim is all I am saying.

 

But I do realize that to be an opinion rather than fact. I don't see either side as being completely wrong or completely right in this and they both have justifications and ugly sides. I just feel that Ulfric is too selfish and wanted to be High King as he could have found a better way than he did to go about this whole thing.

 

Elsif suggested that had he just asked the High King, the High King may have saw things Ulfric's way. Instead he chose to divide Skyrim and typically my characters just can't get with that.

 

Thing is, when I make a passionate Nord type, I always side them with the Stormcloaks. I can't say why for sure, but it is what I do. Subconsciously, I feel like that would be the case in a lot of cases. I dunno.

 

Outside of the game, I just don't think Ulfric is genuine is all.

[Lachdonin]

I think TONS has gotten to the core of many discussions between the Stormcloaks and Empire. Ulfric.

 

Both sides have very valid reasons to do what they do. Even if those reasons get twisted and stomped on because of the unfortunate realities of war, they remain valid. Neither side is more right than the other, no matter how much you dissect their ideals, or how much you compare their actions. Even 20 feet below the muck and gore of war, they are still on even footing.

 

Then you have Ulfric. And i'm talking externally here, not from an RP perspective. Tullius is a rather open book. He's a general, he has a job to do, and he's going to get it done. He's not morally invested, he's following his orders. Ulfric on the other hand has no such simple motivation. He says one thing, then does something which contradicts it. This seems to be Balgruf's main hangup on siding with the Stormcloaks (though the fact that the Empire feeds his people doesn't help matters). Even the nobles of the Stormcloaks don't actually agree on his motivation. How you feel depends on whether or not you trust Ulfric. Considering the wealth of information elsewhere in the game that leads you to question is reasons, i just can't support the Stormcloaks because of Ulfric.

 

Which brings me to the tie-in... Many people complain about the Stormcloak questline because, with its conclusion, you don't take the fight to the Thalmor. Well, that's just being delusional. Anyone who thought they would go from fighting the Empire to fighting the Dominion was expecting something that, simply, wasn't going to happen. The war with the Dominion will not take place in Skyrim, it will either be in Cyrodiil (if the Thalmor start it) or one of the Dominion's border provinces (the more likely outcome, based on what you hear in Skyrim). Those who didn't go into it expecting a unicorn, however, i've found have better insights.

 

Several of my personal friends played the Stormcloaks on their first playthough. Be it because they went into the door with Rogvir first, or because the intro left them with a hate-on for the Empire, it doesn't matter. Playing through the Stormcloak questline early seemed to produce a much more fulfilled response. The problem is, the more they learned AFTER completing the civil war, the more they grew to question their decision, and the more they viewed the questline in a negative light.

 

Thus, i think it's something of an ingenious design (assuming it was intentional, which isn't certain by any means) that when you start the game, the Empire are very clearly the bad guys, but the more you learn on the surface, the more even the playing field becomes. Then, the more you dig, the less attractive Ulfric's rebellion becomes.

 

As an aside... you also start to suspect less and less that the Thalmor had something to do with the impromptu executions at the beginning, and were actually there to take Ulfric into 'custody' so he could escape. At least, i did.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Lachdonin, somehow reading your well written post reminded me of something (not sure why but it did) I absolutely hated about the civil war/stormcloak storyline.

 

The fact that Whiterun gave me the impression of being on the fence, but was actually an Empire city. I really felt like Bethesda should have made it to where the Big Ruuf could have been swayed to side with either side ESPECIALLY since they force you to help him before continuing the civil war quest.

 

I hated betraying Bal. Then I tried to avoid that aspect when I made a Stormcloak character and just was going to do the dragon bit after we took Whiterun only to discover you can't and you are forced to befriend/help him first and then stab him in the back.

 

Other than that, I think the attempt to make both sides just as negative and positive was intentional and overall I think an excellent job was done though I do feel some aspects were forced.

 

For example (and I could be very wrong as I have no idea as to what the legal system would have been like in that setting), executing a horse thief and a person for crossing the border who isn't even on the list to be executed? Really? WTF? Who pissed on that person's sweet roll? Lol

[Lachdonin]

For example (and I could be very wrong as I have no idea as to what the legal system would have been like in that setting), executing a horse thief and a person for crossing the border who isn't even on the list to be executed? Really? WTF? Who pissed on that person's sweet roll? Lol

 

Just filling in gaps, but it is possible that the Thalmor presence was the reason they were so quick to pass judgement. It's rather obvious (to me anyway) that, despite Ralof's claims to the contrary, the Thalmor are actually there to STOP the executions. By delaying the 'proceedings', even to identify one lonely bastard, gives the Thalmor more time to get Ulfric out of his chains. Of course, that's rather empty justification.

[rattlemebones]

Well in Fallout, you could get summary execution for stealing someone's pencil. Illegal immigration is a much worse crime, and it seems likely that you committed a horrendous crime since you crossed the border to, maybe, escape prosecution.

[Anska]

I would go with Lachodin's explanation for why they rushed the executions; Tullius simply didn't want to give Ulfric a chance to get away, so he tried to get it over with in the next best town with a strong Imperial military presence and planned to execute everyone they caught along with the Stormcloaks along with them too.

 

While this is not the topic of this thread, the point about the whole affair which I personally find most curious, is the "crossing the border illegally" bit. Skyrim's border controls seem pretty lax to me: you have Khajiit-carawans travelling the country which nobody likes very much, you have a bunch of dubious warriors from Hammerfell and all sorts of refugees from Morrowind along with the usual traders and adventurers. If Skyrim has some sort of customs facilities, they seem to let just about everybody cross the border, while the real challenge is getting permission to enter one of the cities. Among all these strange characters, not only does the player-character get asked for customs-papers (probably because he simply was in the wrong place at the wrong time) s/he also seems to have felt it necessary to slip past authorities, who let about everyone else pass right through ... so, do we have to assume our characters' portraits adorn a nice "Wanted!" poster somewhere in Cyrodiil or Morrowind?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Anska

[Lachdonin]

There is a picture (comic maybe? Dunno, a friend sent it to me, NSFW, so i deleted it almost instantly and i refuse to actually look it up again) which depicts what the Dragonborn may have done to so anger the authorities...

 

Still, you have to bear in mind the abilities of the Legion in general... Skyrim is a big place, several hundred kilometers from side to side, and it's impossible for a modern military to prevent people from skipping across the border of such an area, let alone an essentially roman force. Certain trader groups may be approved, but especially during a state of civil war traffic across the border would be controlled.