Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[BloodrendX001]

 

C). Without Skyrim, the Empire may not be able to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, and Skyrim by itself certainly won't be able to. Regardless of what you may think (I'm not taking arguments on this one), Skyrim doesn't have the power to withstand an empire that was able to give the Empire, made of many provinces, a run for it's money.

 

D). No one actually likes the Dominion, and no one helps them "enforce" their ban on Talos worship, which will most likely be lifted when the Empire renews war with the Dominion.

 

I would always say this to people that truly believe in the Stormcloaks and that their cause for another war was justified. How would the people be able to fight against the Dominion again? They already lost horribly a first time. What made them think that they could handle it a second time, especially with so little people?

 

I always hated Ulfric for his selfish ways. He killed a man that respected him and would have listened to him; he sent a torn country into even more chaos, he promoted racism and xenophobia... the list goes on. He was just an all-around terrible person. Too much of a temper with a hunger for power.

 

I only ever made one character that believed in the ideals of the Stormcloaks because I dislike them so much; and I wanted to try the Valfar mod as a companion :tongue:.

 

Otherwise.. They've been for the Empire or "Neutral".

 

 

 

If it's what you're referring to, the Great War ended in a stalemate, neither side won or lost. In fact, according to The Great War (book), the main Aldmeri force in Cyrodiil was utterly eradicated. Whether the Empire could have pushed further and won the war, well that's a different matter.

 

Was Ulfric at all aware of Torygg's respect for him? That's never clarified in game, and I think that was a good idea of Bethesda's (if it was even conscious XD). If it turned out that Ulfric knew Torygg respected him and still killed him, then it's without question that wanting the mantle of High King was definitely a big reason for his rebellion, though not the sole reason. Or maybe he genuinely thought that he would make a better High King for Skyrim than Torygg. On the other hand, if he had no idea of Torygg's respect for him and genuinely thought him an Imperial puppet, than I don't think there's anything to imply that killing him was mostly a power grab (though it's not out of the question). Personally, I think Ulfric is like most people, grey. I'm betting that he does want what's best for Skyrim, but finds having power as tantalizing and would be willing to risk and sacrifice lives for it (though also unwilling to admit it). But are the Empire's motives for keeping Skyrim any different than power? Are the leaders of the Empire risking and sacrificing lives simply to maintain power? I'd say yes. The Empire's hardly a force of holy benevolence, and I doubt it ever was. If anything, I'd bet it was Tiber Septim's dovah-soul that made him want to forge the Empire, rather than some romantic crap like " (weeping) oh the poor, poor people, I must save them!".

 

I don't know if I'd call Ulfric racist. He's very patriotic and quite apathetic towards other races, but that doesn't automatically make him racist. If anything he is promoting patriotism, but patriotism can easily lead to racism and xenophobia as well.

[fifteenspades]

 

I don't know if I'd call Ulfric racist. He's very patriotic and quite apathetic towards other races, but that doesn't automatically make him racist. If anything he is promoting patriotism, but patriotism can easily lead to racism and xenophobia as well.

 

Patriotism is often just a excuse used to rebel. And he's not patriotic at all, sure he's fighting for his country but not all of his country wants him to fight for them.

If all the nords in skyrim wanted what Ulfric wants then he could be considered Patriotic, but they don't. Some are content just the way skyrim is, and if you aren't for Ulfric then you are against him as you find out in game. How is that Patriotism ( did i spell that correctly? o.o ) exactly?

 

 

Yes, groups do collapse because the leaders are killed. That happens when the thing holding the group together is the leader and the leader only; However, if said leader is intelligent enough to pick a good second-in-command who is charismatic as the leader then the group will survive. Ulfric made a good choice when he picked Galmar Stone-Fist as his dragon. If Ulfric was killed, Galmar would win because of Ulfric's death.

 

Galmar is stricly a soilder, he doesn't have the political sway to be a leader. What was his solution for Whiterun? oh right he said screw them let's just siege. Ulfric knew better and put on a guise of the "diplomacy" with that whole axe thing. same outcome sure, But Different methods of arriving at it is what matters in the world of politics.

[TheVampireDante]

Exactly - by making the gesture with the axe - if questioned on the attack afterwards, he can easily stand there and say "I tried to be civil..."

[Anska]

Only, it wasn't really just a guise or some way to look good in the end. (Although I wouldn't put this past him either.) Ulfric didn't really expect the thing with the axe to go that way, he expected Balgruuf to join him. It's odd really, I usually get the impression from these early stages of the CW that Ulfric likes Balgruuf quite well and holds him in high regard, while being totally oblivious of the fact, that Balgruuf can't stand him and thinks nothing of him. There is an odd parallel to Ulfric and Torygg in this.

 

And I wondered about the way Ulfric talks to Delphine too.

 

Edit: Just to clarify, I agree with the general statement and especially with the assumption that Galmar couldn't pull of the CW on his own even if he wanted to. He is a good right-hand but not such a great leader. And I think Ulfric's "duel" with Torygg is quite a good example for him being political, if you are looking for one. He tells you at the same time that while it wasn't really a fair fight (Torygg never stood a chance) it was absolutely in accordance with the rules...

 

The thing with the axe though ... it leaves me a little puzzled whenever I think about it.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Anska

[fifteenspades]

Except the thing was it wasn't fair at all. if you just talk to people around solitude you get the idea that he walked up to the boy, shouted at him and killed him. so yes "duel" is still correct~ish.

 

In what way did Ulfric give you the impression he thought Balgruf would accept?

Was it the fact troops were already assembled for the siege?

Or was it his line of... oh i don't want bloodshed. "Ulfric hopes to avoid bloodshed in Whiterun, so he'll give you an axe (Ulfric's War Axe) and tell you to deliver it to Balgruuf. He has no further message for you to take, as he says that the axe is a gesture between two warriors who understand each other and that Balgruuf will know its meaning."

 

in otherwords Ulfric was telling Balgruf hey... bro either support me and give me Whiterun or I will take it. again with the gun pointed at the head thing.

Or maybe it was the fact he let Balgruf live?

Or could was it somehow magically the Gray Manes were already involved in this entire plot, almost like it was pre-planned ;o

 

"Vignar: "If this was my Empire, I'd be able to worship whoever I damned well pleased. You wish to see an Empire without Talos? Without its soul? We should be fighting those witch-elves, not bending knee to them. The Emperor is nothing more than a puppet of the Thalmor. Skyrim needs a High King who will fight for her, and Whiterun needs a Jarl who will do the same."

Yet in reality Ulfric is actually the unknowingly puppet and Vignar is just a sub puppet. Is that what you call Irony?

 

"Ulfric: "Vignar. We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?"

Not what is best for skyrim, what he thinks is best for it. not very "Patriotic" if you ask me.

 

Here's a Conversation with Ulfric and Galmar to show why Galmar can't be a leader that he is just a Solider and what Ulfric thought of Balgruf or anyone against him.

Red = what i think are the important parts about going against ulfric, Teal are the Galmar just being a solider imo

 

 

Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."
Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."
Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."
Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"
Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."
Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"
Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."
Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."
Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"
Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"
Ulfric: "Soon."
Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
Galmar: "The people are behind you."
Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."
Galmar: "Then let them die with their false kings."
Ulfric: "We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."
Galmar: What's left of Skyrim to wager?"

Ulfric: "They have families to think of."
Galmar: "How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families."
Ulfric: "Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?"
Galmar: "I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that."
Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"
Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

 

 

Edited August 15, 2013 by fifteenspades

[Anska]

Most of all it was his conversation with Galmar after you return the axe to him which went along the lines of "Then I was wrong about him." "Told you so" "Do shut up." .... it was a bit longer, but that's the gist of it.

 

Additionally, I wonder, why do you find it so implausible that Ulfric indeed would prefer to win as much of Skyrim as he can without bloodshed? Just because he apparently has no qualms over killing Torygg?

 

2nd Edit: I just saw that we probably misunderstood us. I don't think that the "duel" was absolutely in accordance with the rules. Ulfric claims it is. I meant that it's rule-bending if ever there was some, but he at least tried to get rid of Torygg under a sort of legalish pretence. He didn't just kill him, he tried to find an culturally accepted frame for it.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Anska

[TheVampireDante]

The rules of the duel Ulfric was going by, allowed use of any weapon a warrior has at his disposal - including, if able, his voice.

 

Of course anyone aligned with the Empire will say he just walked in, blasted Torygg down and ended his life. On the flipside - any on the Stormcloak side gives a tale that he proceeded into the chambers and challenged Torygg, the challenge was accepted and they set ready to duel, and - as allowed by the rules of the engagement - Ulfric used the one weapon Torygg didn't have - his voice.

 

Now this is the moment that differs between the two sides - accounts of the scene following either:

 

Imperial - Ulfric used a shout to literally tear the man down and kill him instantly. No common word for spoken challenge. By this account, it sounds like Ulfric did the ancient version of kicking the door in and shotgunning the most important man in the room dead before anyone can react.

 

Stormcloack - Ulfric arrives at Solitude, petitions to see Torygg, and enters the Blue Palace - he then offers a challenge to Torygg, calling him unfit to rule and to prove his worthiness as High King of Skyrim. The challenge was accepted and they they fought - at some point in it Ulfric let lose a shout that either put Torygg to his knees or simply disarmed him - then used his sword to end it.

 

Rogvir, the man who let Ulfric leave, was very adamant - at the very moment of his execution no less - that Ulfric had done everything according to ancient Nordic tradition.

[Kraeten]

The rules of the duel Ulfric was going by, allowed use of any weapon a warrior has at his disposal - including, if able, his voice.

 

Of course anyone aligned with the Empire will say he just walked in, blasted Torygg down and ended his life. On the flipside - any on the Stormcloak side gives a tale that he proceeded into the chambers and challenged Torygg, the challenge was accepted and they set ready to duel, and - as allowed by the rules of the engagement - Ulfric used the one weapon Torygg didn't have - his voice.

 

Now this is the moment that differs between the two sides - accounts of the scene following either:

 

Imperial - Ulfric used a shout to literally tear the man down and kill him instantly. No common word for spoken challenge. By this account, it sounds like Ulfric did the ancient version of kicking the door in and shotgunning the most important man in the room dead before anyone can react.

 

Stormcloack - Ulfric arrives at Solitude, petitions to see Torygg, and enters the Blue Palace - he then offers a challenge to Torygg, calling him unfit to rule and to prove his worthiness as High King of Skyrim. The challenge was accepted and they they fought - at some point in it Ulfric let lose a shout that either put Torygg to his knees or simply disarmed him - then used his sword to end it.

 

Rogvir, the man who let Ulfric leave, was very adamant - at the very moment of his execution no less - that Ulfric had done everything according to ancient Nordic tradition.

 

As I've argued before, I'm really not convinced the Thu'um was a legitimate weapon to use in the duel. Let's not forget the Thu'um ceased to be used as a weapon when Jurgen Windcaller founded the Way of the Voice. Since then, the Thu'um became a way of venerating the Gods. If Torygg or anyone else wanted to learn the Thu'um, they would have to be accepted by the Grey Beards and then betray their trust as Ulfric did. Even still, tradition dictates the Thu'um as a means of praying not to wage combat. A person could easily argue that by using the Thu'um violently, Ulfric was doing the exact opposite of honoring tradition. You could say he was being blasphemous.

[Anska]

Can you actually read those rules up somewhere? I am just curious.

 

The thing which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about the whole affair is that it wasn't an even match. Torygg never stood a chance. Otoh that was exactly Ulfric's point, wasn't it? *sighs* I guess in the end it runs down to me feeling somewhat sorry for Torygg - which is an emotion that isn't rather helpful in this matter.

[TheVampireDante]

I seen the workings of the Duel system written somewhere once before, if I can find the link I'll make sure to drop it in here.

 

I did find this though: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim_talk:Ulfric_Stormcloak - some interesting points there that might add something to what is being discussed here.