Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[CuliacanMexico]

It is not implied at all that the Stormcloaks were betrayed by someone.

I guess it depend on your take on events.

"... the Imperial Legion managed to lure Ulfric into a trap in order to capture him. The trap worked and Ulfric surrendered himself without a fight..."

Dialogue with Hadvar

[sajuukkhar9000]

You wish justify why the Empire is summarily killing an innocent man/woman, but why would the character being murdered care about that rational?

 

 

You are not helping an Empire soldier escape... he is telling you to follow him. I am not sure why my character would assume I would get a pardon for that.

Why would your character care about why he is being killed? Uhhh...... because it's why he is being killed?

 

Because

1. The place is under attack by a Dragon

2. The dude is asking you to follow him

3. By following order during said attack your character ends p protecting him

4. if you protect him, there is a chance he will let you go, especially considering hes pretty much the only person left alive who knew you were about to be killed, knows you weren't on the list, and showed remorse that you were going to be killed.

[CuliacanMexico]

Why would your character care about why he is being killed? Uhhh...... because it's why he is being killed?

What a neutral (innocent) character would see is that they are being killed... murdered... without trial.

 

It would take a rare character to be ok with that.

 

What ever justification the Empire might have... doesn't mean much to an innocent man or woman.

[Moraevik]

4. if you protect him, there is a chance he will let you go, especially considering hes pretty much the only person left alive who knew you were about to be killed, knows you weren't on the list, and showed remorse that you were going to be killed.

 

Hadvar, himself, says on the way to Riverwood to avoid other Imperial soldiers and that General Tullius would have to make the final decision regarding the player's innocent or guilty status. This, alone, invalidates your fourth point.

 

What ever justification the Empire might have... doesn't mean much to an innocent man or woman.

 

I think you're both looking at this in a much too cut-and-dry way. It's not as simple as a binary choice, although the game tries its best to channel you into that sort of thinking. If anything, by putting you with the Stormcloaks in the beginning, and with no backstory (therefore leaving the details up to the player), Beth seems to want you to side with the Stormcloaks. It's the knee-jerk reaction, to be sure. There are other alternatives to siding with either the Stormcloaks or the Empire, or even in following Ralof or Hadvar into Riverwood. This is where role-playing comes into importance, rather than being a nice, little well-behaved stoolie of the developers who want you to do the Main Quest and the Civil War quest from the outset of the game. Choose to be a rebel (and I'm not talking about your character) and a world of other opportunities opens up to you.

 

However, let me remind you both of one important thing. It's not the "Empire" that is attempting to execute a (possibly) innocent person. It's a single rogue Imperial Captain who is making the decision to ignore her own orders and responsibilities to the citizens of Skyrim to execute a person who was not on the list and who, at that point in time, has not even been accused of any crime. It's not even guilt by association, as sajuukkhar suggests, because the Captain's words imply that she simply did not want to deal with an anomaly in her plans and that it was in her own best interests to just eliminate the problem, rather than deal with it later. She's a Bad Cop. Hadvar's a Good Cop. Who do you believe actually represents the Empire and its policies?

[sajuukkhar9000]

Hadvar, himself, says on the way to Riverwood to avoid other Imperial soldiers and that General Tullius would have to make the final decision regarding the player's innocent or guilty status. This, alone, invalidates your fourth point.

Actually Hadvar says you have pretty much earned your pardon and that he will tell Tullius what you did for him to smooth things over.

Edited September 11, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Moraevik]

No. He says that in his opinion, you have earned your pardon. That's not the same thing and Hadvar is in no position to make policy for the Imperial Legion. Of course having one of the few Imperial operatives to escape Helgen in something other than a body bag putting in a good word for you can't hurt. Besides, the Empire still doesn't have any actual charges on you, so there's nothing, by Law, that should go wrong when you first approach Tullius and it turns out that he recognizes you as one of the prisoners.

 

I just hope that damned Captain got what was coming to her. "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup." One can only hope but I suppose we'll never find out.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Empire has the charges of you being found next to the greatest war criminal in recent history, and his posse, when they were captured.

 

There is literally nothing you can do to prove you weren't part of Uflric's group, nor does The Empire have any reason to not think you were with Ulfirc.

 

Excluding meta-game knowledge, they have you on a perfectly valid treason charge.

Edited September 11, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[CuliacanMexico]

 

I think you're both looking at this in a much too cut-and-dry way. It's not as simple as a binary choice, although the game tries its best to channel you into that sort of thinking. If anything, by putting you with the Stormcloaks in the beginning, and with no backstory (therefore leaving the details up to the player), Beth seems to want you to side with the Stormcloaks. It's the knee-jerk reaction, to be sure. There are other alternatives to siding with either the Stormcloaks or the Empire, or even in following Ralof or Hadvar into Riverwood. This is where role-playing comes into importance, rather than being a nice, little well-behaved stoolie of the developers who want you to do the Main Quest and the Civil War quest from the outset of the game. Choose to be a rebel (and I'm not talking about your character) and a world of other opportunities opens up to you.

 

However, let me remind you both of one important thing. It's not the "Empire" that is attempting to execute a (possibly) innocent person. It's a single rogue Imperial Captain who is making the decision to ignore her own orders and responsibilities to the citizens of Skyrim to execute a person who was not on the list and who, at that point in time, has not even been accused of any crime. It's not even guilt by association, as sajuukkhar suggests, because the Captain's words imply that she simply did not want to deal with an anomaly in her plans and that it was in her own best interests to just eliminate the problem, rather than deal with it later. She's a Bad Cop. Hadvar's a Good Cop. Who do you believe actually represents the Empire and its policies?

At the start you have to choose to follow a man who supports the rebels or one who support the Empire. In my opinion, without a strong back story following the Empire doesn't makes a lot of sense. Maybe the Captain does or doesn't support the views of the Empire, but would your character take that chance?

 

I am not saying which side is good or bad, just that the opening scene for me takes my character (role playing) towards escaping with the Storm Cloaks... not staying and hoping for mercy from the Empire.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Culiacan Mexico

[CuliacanMexico]

The Empire has the charges of you being found next to the greatest war criminal in recent history, and his posse, when they were captured.

 

There is literally nothing you can do to prove you weren't part of Uflric's group, nor does The Empire have any reason to not think you were with Ulfirc.

 

Excluding meta-game knowledge, they have you on a perfectly valid treason charge.

Why would I expect mercy?

[Moraevik]

The Empire has the charges of you being found next to the greatest war criminal in recent history, and his posse, when they were captured.

 

There is literally nothing you can do to prove you weren't part of Uflric's group, nor does The Empire have any reason to not think you were with Ulfirc.

 

Excluding meta-game knowledge, they have you on a perfectly valid treason charge.

 

 

Yes, yes. You've said this before, and it's no more true, now, than it was, then. Guilt by association is not a valid charge in our own society and there's nothing at all in the lore of the ES that indicates that it is for the Empire, either. You're making unwarranted assumptions about the legal system and stating them as facts carved in stone. I'm making no assumptions. Nor will I entertain this particular argument any farther. You are welcome to your own opinion on this matter. As am I, and that's the end of the issue since neither of us is going to convince the other of the rightness of our perspectives. I suggest just letting it be, rather than whipping dead horses, which isn't going to further either of our stances with the other readers of this thread.

 

Culiacan, you can role-play as a person who thinks with his head instead of his heart. I've done both. I've followed Ralof and I've followed Hadvar. I've sided with the Stormcloaks and I've sided with the Empire. Role-playing implies the ability to take on a "role" which is not you -- to play a character who might even have a very different way of looking at the world than you do. Like I said, it isn't black and white and anyone who sees it as such is simply missing the Big Picture. Of course, it's possible to role-play a character who is wearing conceptual blinders and can't see the options. I've done that, too. They're all valid approaches to the game. And, once out of Helgen you don't have to follow the person you chose. Indeed, you never ever have to see him, again, unless you involve yourself in the Civil War. That's generally the way I do it, because I don't like having that "Join the Imperial Legion" or "Join the Stormcloak Rebellion" quest crammed into my journal without my permission.