Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[Anska]

I would guess that they got a formal execution because first of all, as Dante said, it's simply the way the Legion handles things and secondly; Ulfric surrendered to save his men if I remember it correctly (I think Ralof says this after you escape with him), so simply sticking a sword in him would have been very bad style. - At the end of the CW he didn't surrender, he just simply lost.

 

 

As far as thinking you're an ally of Ulfric's, I feel like that would have been said. They had a horse thief (which in my opinion it isn't relevant that they kill someone for stealing a pencil in another game) so they weren't just killing Stormcloaks and for such petty crimes it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Apart from getting it over with quickly, executing Ulfric in some petty village in the company of petty criminals might have also been a symbolic decision. By executing Ulfric in the company of petty criminals, Ulfric is degraded to a petty criminal himself. From his rank as Jarl of Windhelm alone you might think he would be entitled to an execution more befitting his rank, with a formal trial and a public execution in Solitude ... or at least a few last words. Instead Tullius treats him like the common scum that was just plucked from the road. That is terribly degrading, especially to a person like Ulfric who appreciates and knows the value of a good story. (Just how far this goes you see once you finish the CW for the Empire and Ulfric's last request is to be killed by the Dragonborn because it would make a better story.) By denying Ulfric a good ending to his story, Tullius might hope to prevent that Ulfric gets turned into a martyr, something he aparently fears at the end of the CW. - So I guess the player-character might simply be the supporting cast in staging Ulfric's execution as unimportantly as possible.

 

I also think Ulfric was supposed to go last, as an additional punishement. This way he had to face directly how his men had to die not for but because of him and additionally he gets a few extra minutes to ponder the end of his ambitions. Another method of making someone die slowly...

 

Concerning Hadvar, I feel it quite easy to go with Dante's interpretation. Hadvar's "Ralof, you damn traitor" sounds to me as if Hadvar felt betrayed on a personal level too, so I always assumed they used to be friends. And apart from what was said before, Hadvar doesn't only seem to feel uncomfortable at the execution, he also expresses his dislike of the torture-room. I assume they made Hadvar a rather nice guy, so you would actually have a reason to go with the Imperial after the dragon-attack.

 

As for Whiterun, I have a bad conscience when conquering it for the Stormcloaks too, but I wonder if this wasn't done to underline how deeply the CW affects the country by showing that it rips friendships (and families) apart. There are several examples amongst the NPC, Ulfric and Rikke being the most touching in my eyes. In Baalgruf you finally have your own former friend on the other side, so you can perhaps relate to how utterly sordid some of the Stormcloaks might feel despite being certain of doing the right thing.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Anska

[rattlemebones]

Well, if Skyrim does do correctly it's saying that war is .... well something that is horrible. Fighting your enemies since before the world is created is one thing, but fighting and killing your neighbour is a PTSD event.

[fifteenspades]

I don't agree with needing to execute Ulfric publicly to prove something. I mean if i cut off a guys head that should be all the proof anyone would ever need.

Doesn't matter how it happened all they need to know is he's dead, and that's what happens to stormcloak rebels. Really what other message does the empire need to give off?

[TheVampireDante]

You show a decapitated head alone - then you'd have arguments that it was just someone that looked similar to Ulfric - if people seen the man living and breathing right in front of them, amongst his own men and then killed - that's making a definitive statement on the matter. Rallying your own side and breaking the moral of the opposition.

 

By doing it in front of the town, it's proving to the people, the imperial troops, any stormcloaks in the area that have snuck in to witness the scene and yes, to the Thalmor.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I understand your side regarding Hadvar, Dante. I truly do and like I said before, I do see your impressions as feasible, but I also hope you can see mine as feasible as well. Besides, one reason for my impression is due to the words you used in the other thread regarding Serana.

 

In that thread, the roles were reversed. I believed she was against the plan, you believed she was not and then you said something that really caused me to go, “Hmmm. He’s right. There’s a very good chance that it wasn’t the plan she hated so much, but the man.” :

 

 

 

”… If she had any objections to the plan itself, it should have been made clear during gameplay…”

 

I kind of feel like that line of thinking applied here aids in giving my take on Hadvar some merit. I feel like someone against the executions of the Stormcloaks the way it was going down would have said so. I think I even recall a person or two who is on the empire’s side making comments that suggested they didn’t like how things were being done/handled.

 

Thing is my friend, regardless, whether we believe he is alright with the execution of Stormcloaks or not, he definitely knows you’re no Stormcloak or an ally of Ulfrics. If you pick a Nord, he says, “You picked a bad time to come home kinsman,” or something like that and that was my point :D

 

I agree with the formalized execution. That made sense to me for numerous reasons, but the order of the executions just doesn’t. I mean, we can say it was arrogance, but even that doesn’t fully fit. We can say stupidity, but that doesn’t quite fully work either just given the overall feeling/mood of the situation that is the civil war. The only thing that perfectly fits is that it was forced. That someone thought it would be cool if the player starts out being executed and rather than fleshing things out more, we ended up with this instead.

 

I can’t get with them thinking they had him completely (This guy is believed to had escaped from a Thalmor prison isn’t he? (no, I really am asking because I don’t know)) over wanting to be thorough or send a message to all Stormcloaks (including the ones there) and killing their leader right in front of them.

 

I see your point regarding shouting. Due to it being called “shouting” and me never using it and rarely doing the main quest, I often forget that it is actually “speaking” in dragon tongue and pronouncing words does become difficult when you’re gagged.

 

Anska, I feel my post basically also works in response to what you said regarding Hadvar and the execution of Ulfric and or the Stormcloaks, but yes, your views definitely also warrant some consideration.

 

I was cool with the Ulfric Rikke thing. GREAT job on that for sho (sure) and you’re right that it those sort of events were what added to the war more real. I just didn’t like being forced into that as that. I shouldn’t have to help him first. Obviously, when I was running through things naturally (along the main quest line), I didn’t have an issue with it at all, but when I couldn’t negate it, I was upset and of course given he hadn’t chosen a side and NPCs gave the impression that he could go either way, I felt like he really should have been able to choose either side… or how cool would it have been for him to have chosen neither side and then he would have been fighting the Empire off and the Stormcloaks.

 

Reasonable and Logical Person says, “Tons, that is so unrealistic. Whiterun would falls in less than an hour.”

 

Me: So?!

 

Spades, style is everything. Didn’t you know that? Lol

[fifteenspades]

I can't think of anything more stylish then a decapitated head.

Also how are you going to fake a head? not like there are multiple ulfric clones~ But if you really want proof give them the body too?

But honestly who cares about the message they needed to send to everyone else. They slaughter stormcloaks on the field without mercy, yet when they capture someone who is known to be

extremely dangerous and volatile they want to take it slow? ....

 

Its like giving a trial to a man who killed 100 people in broad daylight ( another argument for another thread too off topic here :P )

-killed the high king, not in a honorable fashion that most think. ( talking to everyone at solitude they give you that feel of he literally walked up to him shouted at him and killed him )

-Leader of a rebellion

-probably killed dozens of empire soldiers or more

-from his past history in the war with thalmor hes known to be lethal

 

Cut off the head of the snake. Now if you really must send a message just kill Ulfric infront of the rest of his stormcloaks that were captured with him. then let them go to tell all their buddys, or do a public announcement with them as witness's. So many better ways the empire could of chosen instead of a local execution infront of... oh idk 1 man, 1 woman, 1 child, 1 executioner, hadvar, 1 angry female officer, 1 general. and few more soldiers.

[rattlemebones]

Too bad that summary execution is legal in Skyrim. If it was illegal, then they would've been forced to take him to a hold capital to give him a trial, albeit a show trial, and then formally execute him in front of everyone

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

War is as much a mental game as it is a physical one... to some extent and at times it can be more mental than it is physical. If we include strategy with the nonphysical group of things (which we should) then it is far more mental than it is physical.

 

Soldiers underestimate the importance of messages being sent and examples needing to not only be made but publicized, which is why they tend to take their orders from officers who are supposed to see the big picture.

 

Me personally, I would have done everything the empire did up until the order of the executed. Ulfric and then I would have let the remaining Stormcloaks leave (or at least some of them) so that they could tell everyone else what happened.

 

Yes, they could have killed him on the spot, but despite the fact that this happens anyway later on, it isn't unheard of to have a leader of a movement or group be executed in a public and or theatrical manner especially in medieval like times.

 

So your way is more effective as far as putting an end to things, but the other way (execution order aside) was more common in these situations and was more effective at sending a message.

 

You don't agree with sending a message and care only about making sure he's dead, okay, that makes sense... but be careful to not underestimate the power of such a display.

 

If you still don't understand the why a public execution Spades, I've got nothing else.

[fifteenspades]

I agree with a Public execution for back then. but as i said, this was just a local execution.

 

If you are going to go through the trouble of formalities then you might as well go all out and do it in front of EVERYONE.

Not a small village called Helgen, in front of maybe...15 people at most. Braveheart Style, see if you have any stormcloaks continue to rebel then ;o

[TheVampireDante]

You don't agree with sending a message and care only about making sure he's dead, okay, that makes sense... but be careful to not underestimate the power of such a display.

 

If you still don't understand the why a public execution Spades, I've got nothing else.

 

It's a power play.

 

The Empire by executing him in a town, and the way they went about it is just them saying "this ends here and now, on our terms" - if they'd managed to put him to the block and take his head, when word spreads of it the Imperial troops morale would rocket at the news, while the Stormcloaks would be disheartened and distraught over that very same news.

 

You break a troops morale, you weaken them, and a weakened force will not be effective, the the Stormcloaks would either start falling apart or begin acting rashly to get some form of revenge for the death of their leader. Neither option is useful in maintaining a surviving and useful defense.

 

 

Not a small village called Helgen, in front of maybe...15 people at most.

 

I always take the ingame representation of a towns population as different from the lore and story numbers... if the scene was written in a novel there'd probably be at least 40 - 50 people in Helgen witnessing the scene.

 

Plus, the way that they were transporting Ulfric - I doubt it'd have make it anywhere further than past Whiterun hold before being attacked by Stormcloaks trying to free him. Perhaps Balgruf could have been persuaded to hold the execution in Whiterun if they wanted a larger township to stage it. I'm sure he'd have loved the chance at spending the years afterwards telling everyone that the Civil war was ended on his doorstep.