Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Yes, groups do collapse because the leaders are killed. That happens when the thing holding the group together is the leader and the leader only; However, if said leader is intelligent enough to pick a good second-in-command who is charismatic as the leader then the group will survive. Ulfric made a good choice when he picked Galmar Stone-Fist as his dragon. If Ulfric was killed, Galmar would win because of Ulfric's death.

 

A second in command is not always (or normally) someone who can assume the role of leader should the leader fall. They are the right hand. If a person's head was cut off, I assure you that their right hand couldn't run their body.

 

I know that's extreme, but it actually sort of works as typically, in a hierarchy, a number 2 can temporarily act as a number 1 but is not effective at carrying that role long term.

 

Galmar, definitely fits that in my opinion. Galmar is purely a soldier. He isn't political at all and in order to successfully lead a movement, you need both so no, Galmar couldn't lead the Stormcloaks to victory. He's a strong follower and decent relay for orders above him, but while Watson was key to helping Holmes solve many a mystery, Watson could not function for a prolonged period of time with the same or comparable amount of success without Holmes.

[rattlemebones]

 

 

Hate to foist my morals upon other people, but war is neither fun nor a game. War should only be waged if all other options are exhausted and neither side can come to an agreement. Thanks to diplomacy, we haven't had a world war since World War II. To sum it up, war is fear cloaked in courage.

War is not fear cloaked in courage. The Romans didn't conquer almost all of the civilized world because they were afraid of the opposing sides. If they were afraid they wouldn't bother attacking. They were ruthless, and thats why they won.

I'm sure the Romans that were fighting the Huns at Chalôns in France were scared to death; however, they knew if they didn't defeat the Huns their very lives would become worthless. The fear of war was replaced by the bigger fear of the Huns.

[Anska]

So quick answer: it is certainly possible - I mean for all we know the whole dossier could be a fake just waiting for a nosy intruder to pick it up - however I don' t think it very likely, the story told in the dossier just simply makes most sense if you accept it at face value. You could say that, according to the dossier, the Thalmor conditioned Ulfric to really hate them (amongst other things) so they would have one more person of importance who would not like their terms, should the need for a treaty arrise and possibly cause trouble in the future . They wanted to let him go, but simply releasing him might have caused suspicion, so they allowed him to free himself.

 

However, as you said yourself, for your argument it's totally irrelevant whether or not he really escaped.

[Bozzz123]

 

 

Hate to foist my morals upon other people, but war is neither fun nor a game. War should only be waged if all other options are exhausted and neither side can come to an agreement. Thanks to diplomacy, we haven't had a world war since World War II. To sum it up, war is fear cloaked in courage.

War is not fear cloaked in courage. The Romans didn't conquer almost all of the civilized world because they were afraid of the opposing sides. If they were afraid they wouldn't bother attacking. They were ruthless, and thats why they won.

I'm sure the Romans that were fighting the Huns at Chalôns in France were scared to death; however, they knew if they didn't defeat the Huns their very lives would become worthless. The fear of war was replaced by the bigger fear of the Huns.

 

OK how about this. War is not always fear cloaked in courage, it completely depends on the senario. In one scenario the party may have little to know fear and in the other scenario they may be soaked in fear. But to say war is fear cloaked in courage is an incorrect statement and what I should've said in my last statement is that war is not always fear cloaked in courage, but it can be true.

[TheVampireDante]

Far as Ulfric's escape goes - I think the actual method of his getting out doesn't really matter on the whole. The Thalmor wound him up, and planned to let him loose on the world at some point. If he did escape, then he just did what they planned earlier then they set out.

 

He hates them, hates what they did to his people with the banning of Talos worship, and the downright oppressive way they treat anyone that still holds Talos to heart - They get in his face every time they can. Even at his coming execution at Helgen there's a Thalmor representative present.

 

Yes, he's doing exactly what they want him to - but as many say, not knowingly, or more to the point - not in a way that blinds him from everything else. They say that he was broken by his treatment (torture). Maybe not enough. They underestimated the man. Of course the civil war going on like it has obviously helps the Thalmor - but what are they more worried about?

 

The Empire: Already led by someone willing to stay put due to the treaty.

 

The Stormcloaks: Led by a man who would gladly wipe them off the face of the planet given the chance.

 

I'd say the latter - and it would be their own fault.

 

Whatever they put him through has become part of what is driving him, and it's being steered in a direction they can't stop anymore. He's been so determined to force them out for what they did to him and his countrymen he's went to war to get the entire entourage taken out and thrown back over the border where he thinks it belongs, darkening the doorstep of his homeland no further.

 

That is not a broken man - that is a man intent of breaking the neck of everyone that he feels mistreated him and the rest of Skyrim.

 

He can still tell the difference between his enemies though - he's at war with the Imperial legion - but he knows where the cause of that conflict comes from. The Thalmor. You take out the legion, you remove the Dominion by proxy.

Look at how the diplomatic scene at High Hrothgar goes - after you calm the initial outrage of Ulfric and Galmar due to Elenwen being present - he's much more willing to talk with Tullius if Elenwen is gone. Still obviously hostile, but her being present is a factor that does not work in his favour, he loses focus there.

 

I did find it funny that Ulfric knew Delphine's name at the meeting though - have they met previously?

[rattlemebones]

 

 

 

 

Hate to foist my morals upon other people, but war is neither fun nor a game. War should only be waged if all other options are exhausted and neither side can come to an agreement. Thanks to diplomacy, we haven't had a world war since World War II. To sum it up, war is fear cloaked in courage.

War is not fear cloaked in courage. The Romans didn't conquer almost all of the civilized world because they were afraid of the opposing sides. If they were afraid they wouldn't bother attacking. They were ruthless, and thats why they won.

I'm sure the Romans that were fighting the Huns at Chalôns in France were scared to death; however, they knew if they didn't defeat the Huns their very lives would become worthless. The fear of war was replaced by the bigger fear of the Huns.

OK how about this. War is not always fear cloaked in courage, it completely depends on the senario. In one scenario the party may have little to know fear and in the other scenario they may be soaked in fear. But to say war is fear cloaked in courage is an incorrect statement and what I should've said in my last statement is that war is not always fear cloaked in courage, but it can be true.

Ok, so sometimes war isn't feared, but then as Franklin D. Roosevelt said,"The only we have to fear is fear itself."

[Bozzz123]

That is true but I dont really get your point.

[rattlemebones]

I didn't get my point either.

[Bozzz123]

I didn't get my point either.

lol :laugh:

[SomnolentLullaby]

C). Without Skyrim, the Empire may not be able to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, and Skyrim by itself certainly won't be able to. Regardless of what you may think (I'm not taking arguments on this one), Skyrim doesn't have the power to withstand an empire that was able to give the Empire, made of many provinces, a run for it's money.

 

D). No one actually likes the Dominion, and no one helps them "enforce" their ban on Talos worship, which will most likely be lifted when the Empire renews war with the Dominion.

 

I would always say this to people that truly believe in the Stormcloaks and that their cause for another war was justified. How would the people be able to fight against the Dominion again? They already lost horribly a first time. What made them think that they could handle it a second time, especially with so little people?

 

I always hated Ulfric for his selfish ways. He killed a man that respected him and would have listened to him; he sent a torn country into even more chaos, he promoted racism and xenophobia... the list goes on. He was just an all-around terrible person. Too much of a temper with a hunger for power.

 

I only ever made one character that believed in the ideals of the Stormcloaks because I dislike them so much; and I wanted to try the Valfar mod as a companion :P.

 

Otherwise.. They've been for the Empire or "Neutral".